Windows Vista Peculiarities and Adjustments

[BobHegwood]

Just thought I'd keep track of the adjustments Vista users are going to
have to get used to if they expect Celestia to operate as they're
accustomed to in XP.

Right off the bat, you should know that Vista likes to (on occasion) create
copies of your textures when modified. Your new textures may NOT show
up in the Celestia textures directory, but may be transported to an
entirely different directory used for compatibility issues. Believe me, this
is a WEIRD issue. Some textures will show up in the compatibility
directory, and others will show up where you saved them in the Celestia
directory.

Your texture may be either in: C:\Program Files\Celestia\textures\medres

OR, they'll be in:

C:\Users\YourName\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files\Celestia\textures\medres

You figure it out...

I have been able to go to the compatibility directory, and MOVE or
COPY the compatibility file directly back to the Celestia directory, and
have had NO trouble keeping the textures there once I have done this.

This bug may ALSO affect SSC files too. Just a word of warning to
those who are about to (or have) upgraded.

[BobHegwood]

Another interesting peculiarity for Vista Celestia users...

In order to use the 3dstocmod converter in Vista, you have to convert the
elements via Vista's "compatibility" mode under the file's "properties"
dialog.

For every .exe and .dll file, you must specify compatibility for Windows XP,
AND you must specify that "Visual Themes" are to be disabled. Got this
very useful tool to work finally on my new PC using the features as
described above.

Just FYI...

Thanks, Brain-Dead

[BobHegwood]

As noted under the new Celestia 1.5.0 Pre4 release header, the following
is a REAL problem for Vista users. Or, at least for Brain-Dead Vista Users...

For Vista owners only, there exists a REAL problem which must be dealt
with every time you wish to change one of your SSC files in the data
directory. Since - when installed with the default options - Celestia takes
ownership of the directory, you simply CANNOT make any changes to the
SSC files in the data directory. Oh, I mean that you CAN make the changes,
it's just that you simply cannot SAVE the changes to the data directory. This
problem can be overcome by some work with permissions and security within
the Vista O.S., but - believe me - it is NO fun to do. At any rate, I guess
I'll have to go through all of that crap AGAIN because it's the only way
you can allow yourself to make any changes to Celestia. Oh Brother...
You cannot change the celestia.cfg file, by the way. VERY irritating.

Thanks, Bob

[selden]

Perhaps the "right" thing to do is to change how Celestia's directory structure is organized under Windows. I mean, to make it more like what's done under Linux (and MacOS?), with all of the modifiable files copied to the user's home directory and belonging to that user.

Since Windows originally was designed as a single user system, this is somewhat awkward, since the only standardized location seems to be in the user profile: Documents and Settings\%username%\Application Data\Celestia\, perhaps. Has this changed under Vista?

However, putting files there is *extremely* inconvenient, if not impossible, on networked systems that use a "Roaming Profile", which MS limits to only 30MB. That's much too small for Celestia, of course.

[BobHegwood]

That's okay...

I've SOLVED this particular problem with Vista. To AVOID having to mess
with all of that "permissions" crap, Vista users (On a single home PC) can
simply copy an SSC file to a different directory - I use one called
"Downloads." Make any changes to the COPIED version, then copy it back
to the C:\Program Files\Celestia\data folder. You'll be asked if it's okay to
allow this copy, and you can respond in the affirmative. Once you have
done this once, you'll be able to edit the copied file in the Celestia directory
to your heart's content forevermore. Take THAT Bill Gates...

Phooey!

[rra]

A lot, if not all problems described are due to the fact that windows doesn't allow data to be placed in the program files directory.
That is part of the security system (UAC) , and can be turned off completely, or partly I believe.
To enhance compatibility and still use UAC microsoft implemented
a work-around for programs, by redirecting data into the "compatability" directory , as Bob cleared out.
Anther way would be to installe the complete Celestia program , including its sub-dirs anywhere, away, from the program-files. dir.
Thats the way I work, and I experience no problems at all.



Ren?©

[chris]

A lot, if not all problems described are due to the fact that windows doesn't allow data to be placed in the program files directory.
That is part of the security system (UAC) , and can be turned off completely, or partly I believe.
To enhance compatibility and still use UAC microsoft implemented
a work-around for programs, by redirecting data into the "compatability" directory , as Bob cleared out.
Anther way would be to installe the complete Celestia program , including its sub-dirs anywhere, away, from the program-files. dir.
Thats the way I work, and I experience no problems at all.

Another task for an incremental release after 1.5.1 is to modify the Windows version of Celestia to load files from the user's home folder instead of the program files folder. At the east, even if the base package files aren't stored there, Celestia should scan the user directory for extras.

--Chris

[Guckytos]

Another task for an incremental release after 1.5.1 is to modify the Windows version of Celestia to load files from the user's home folder instead of the program files folder. At the east, even if the base package files aren't stored there, Celestia should scan the user directory for extras.

--Chris

I disagree stongly here. Call me oldfashioned or whatever, but I hate it when programms start dumping all their files in the home folders. Which get really messy over the time.

I like to have it clean and simple: Programm and all it's necessary files in one neat folder with subfolders.
So that you know where everything belongs and don't have to start looking over the whole place.

And wouldn't that lead to the problem that, if you have more then one user on a machine you get multiples of all basic celestia files?

As an option that is not the default behaviour it would perhaps be okay, but I still don't like the idea.

And what happens on older Windows operating systems (Windows 98 for example), if you implement that?

My 2 cents.

Regards,

Guckytos

[Johaen]

I disagree stongly here. Call me oldfashioned or whatever, but I hate it when programms start dumping all their files in the home folders. Which get really messy over the time.

I agree with this.

[phoenix]

I think chris meant to "look" for celestia extras, configs, textures etc. in the users home directory.

I agree storing all celestia data user-based would be really annoying.

but I like the idea of changing the celestia-config and certain data without overwriting files in the celestia programs-dir.

[Guckytos]

I think chris meant to "look" for celestia extras, configs, textures etc. in the users home directory.

I agree storing all celestia data user-based would be really annoying.

but I like the idea of changing the celestia-config and certain data without overwriting files in the celestia programs-dir.

That doesn't make sense to me. You already can specify in the Celestia config file where Celestia should be looking for extras and addons.
And that central startup file should definitely stay within the Celestia main directory!

[selden]

That doesn't make sense to me. You already can specify in the Celestia config file where Celestia should be looking for extras and addons.
And that central startup file should definitely stay within the Celestia main directory!

You're thinking "one person = one computer". Celestia needs to be usable on computers that have several different people using them, perhaps even at the same time. (It should be possible to run Celestia as a 3D X client, although I've never tried it.) Each person using Celestia will want to have a different version of celestia.cfg, for example, perhaps with different anti-alias settings, or perhaps specifying different directories for the Addons they want, to pick just two of the possible differences. All would be running the same Celestia program file, though, and using the same shared, readonly copy of solarsys.ssc in the shared, readonly Celestia\data\ directory.

[BobHegwood]

Well just for everyone's information here, Vista is revealing her
peculiarities more and more. When I first got my new machine, I was
under the impression that I HAD to install Celestia as an XP-compatible
piece of software. This is - apparently - not the case. I have re-installed
Vista since I couldn't install XP on my machine,
(See-http://shatters.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11617) and
I'm pretty sure that we can leave Celestia as a native application. As I
read here earlier, Celestia's config.cfg file can be used to point yourself
to the appropriate directories if it becomes necessary. It shouldn't be
needed though. I'll let you know after I re-install Celestia for the fourth
time in three weeks.

Thanks, Bob

[Guckytos]

You're thinking "one person = one computer". Celestia needs to be usable on computers that have several different people using them, perhaps even at the same time. (It should be possible to run Celestia as a 3D X client, although I've never tried it.) Each person using Celestia will want to have a different version of celestia.cfg, for example, perhaps with different anti-alias settings, or perhaps specifying different directories for the Addons they want, to pick just two of the possible differences. All would be running the same Celestia program file, though, and using the same shared, readonly copy of solarsys.ssc in the shared, readonly Celestia\data\ directory.

You definitly have a point here selden. Yeah, I was thinking along one person = one computer.

But if the install process is changed for multiusers, then I would want the option of how is it called? Global Install? Where the program is installed in a way that is the same for all users. In other words I want the option that everything stays the same as it is now, for users that want it that way.

[selden]

yup.

It seems to me that there are (at least) three "obvious" standard configurations:

1. shared everything, everything writable by everybody
(almost what we have now, once permissions are set appropriately)

2. partially shared: celestia core files are readonly, with personal copies of config file and addons writiable by their owners. Presumably a variation of this would be appropriate in an educational setting, for example, so that the instructor can be sure everyone is using the same version of the program.

3. completely nonshared: celestia is private to the account that installed it. So each can use whatever version(s) of Celestia they want. Presumably this will require a change in how the registry settings are done so that per-user entries are made. (I know essentially nothing about how this would be done.)

[BobHegwood]

3. completely nonshared: celestia is private to the account that installed it. So each can use whatever version(s) of Celestia they want. Presumably this will require a change in how the registry settings are done so that per-user entries are made. (I know essentially nothing about how this would be done.)

Again, just FYI, I have installed Celestia on my machine - for the
FOURTH time now - using Selden's 3rd option above. I don't want
ANY part of my machine to be shared with anyone or anything. I
know that this is becoming less possible within Vista, but that's the
way I want it on my machine. Seems that Vista also expects you to
be connected to the net no matter what happens. In my case, this
also is not the case. I completely BLOCK any connection to the net
when I'm not exploring it. Sue me...

Thanks, Bob

[BobHegwood]

The compatibility issue raises it's ugly head once more...

Having just spent two hours trying to apply a texture to to the new
Phoebe model (thanks to Jestr and Dr. Schrempp), I managed to learn
that .3ds files may ALSO get placed into an XP-compatibility folder
whether you want them to or not.

Very irritating. This would be okay if some indication that this had
happened were in evidence, but - if you don't notice that "Compatible
Files" text at the top of your Windows Explorer - you have NO idea
why your new file doesn't show up as saved in the location you
saved it to.

Damned irritating...

This procedure makes even LESS sense when - if you simply MOVE
the file from the compatibility folder to your normal Celestia\models
folder - the same file will NEVER bother you again. What am I
missing here? Why aren't Vista users around the world marching
in Windows' front yard?

Just more FYI.

[julesstoop]

Vista seems to be a huge pita.
Just move back to XP or install a flavour of Linux, I dare say.

[BobHegwood]

Vista seems to be a huge pita.
Just move back to XP or install a flavour of Linux, I dare say.

Have already tried, but the new PC won't allow it because of the
installed firmware. Not to worry though... I'm slowly getting used to it.

By the time anyone else here has to jump off the edge of the
Windows World into Vista Hell, there may be a few helpful words in
this thread.

I'm trying.

[Guckytos]

Have already tried, but the new PC won't allow it because of the
installed firmware. Not to worry though... I'm slowly getting used to it.

I'm trying.

Bob,

what do you mean by that? Has your PC such a special firmware, that is directly connected to Vista? I am a bit puzzled by what you say here.
Every PC component that I know of should be still able to run under XP.
Okay, a Nvidia 8000+ won't be able to use DirectX 10, but apart from that?

Could you perhaps explain that in a bit more detail?

Regards,

Guckytos