Theory Talk With WildMoon

General physics and astronomy discussions not directly related to Celestia
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t00fri
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Post #21by t00fri » 11.09.2005, 17:26

rthorvald wrote:
WildMoon wrote:time travel is possible as we are all doing time travel now. Without time, the universe would not exist.

How would you know that? Time might be nothing more than your brain??s subjective and distorted interpretation of entropy...

-rthorvald


;-)

Runar,

your remark made me contemplate whether I knew already at the age of 13 what entropy was...

In fact 13 year old kids are known to be most efficient "generators" for entropy! I remember that the table in my room at that time was constantly in an incredible disorder

I am sure only few people will be able to appreciate these 2 lines ;-)

Bye Fridger

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Post #22by rthorvald » 11.09.2005, 22:35

t00fri wrote:I remember that the table in my room at that time was constantly in an incredible disorder


Hmm... If this is no longer the case, isn??t your table proof that time *can* go backwards?

- rthorvald

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Black hole theorie

Post #23by Hunter Parasite » 18.09.2005, 21:30

in response to the statement that started the black hole therioes part of this board, here is my theorie: techniclly black hole are a point in the universe were there is "universal rift" and that is basicly a tear in the space time continuim. i doubt that black hole will send you anywhere in our universe but to another universe via the rift. and in theorie it is possible to utilize the black holes as a means to travel to the other universes that make up the "Multi-verse" but it would be a challenge to enter a black hole without it's gravity squishing us or ripping us apart.
Last edited by Hunter Parasite on 21.09.2005, 00:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #24by WildMoon » 21.09.2005, 00:30

Interesting 8) Thanks for the black hole theory. You're the first person to respond to it.
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Post #25by Malenfant » 21.09.2005, 02:53

t00fri wrote:your remark made me contemplate whether I knew already at the age of 13 what entropy was...

In fact 13 year old kids are known to be most efficient "generators" for entropy! I remember that the table in my room at that time was constantly in an incredible disorder

I am sure only few people will be able to appreciate these 2 lines ;-)


Given that the universe tends towards increased entropy, I'd hate to see the state of your table now... ;)

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Post #26by t00fri » 21.09.2005, 20:49

Malenfant wrote:
t00fri wrote:your remark made me contemplate whether I knew already at the age of 13 what entropy was...

In fact 13 year old kids are known to be most efficient "generators" for entropy! I remember that the table in my room at that time was constantly in an incredible disorder

I am sure only few people will be able to appreciate these 2 lines ;-)

Given that the universe tends towards increased entropy, I'd hate to see the state of your table now... ;)


Well observed, Malenfant ;-)

Bye Fridger

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Post #27by Spaceman Spiff » 21.09.2005, 21:46

Ah, but as every teenager's mother knows, you can locally decrease entropy in an open system, so tidy that table up now!!!* ;).

On theory:

Time travel: About world lines crossing themselves. Do we need to ensure that world lines only refer to a microscopic (sub-atomic) particles, never a macroscopic thing like people, planets, etc? I mean, the second set are really collections of world lines.

In one sense it seems to me time travel is possible at a microscopic level, but not at a macroscopic level. No one can tell the 'age' of an individual electron or other subatomic particle, even unstable particles like neutrons. For collections of them, there emerges a sense of time, like 10^10 neutrons becomes ???—10^10 neutrons plus other bits after 8 seconds. Yet no neutron ever knows when it's supposed to decay, or how old it is.

This is like the second law of thermodynamics: entropy increases with time in a closed system. So, some say changing entropy gives a direction to time. I wonder if the second law of thermodynamics is really a 'law' at all. When you look at entropy as a measure of disorder, this inevitable increase of disorder turns out not to be so inevitable after all - it is simply the most likely outcome in large systems. Reduce the number of particles to a few, and ordered systems are much more likely to emerge spontaneously. Could you say time goes backwards when that happens?

Black holes: I think there's a problem with this elastic gridded space-time analogy - it's interpreted more literally than it was supposed to be, which makes some people think of tubes like wormholes. This analogy is sometimes used to create the concept of a u-bend wormhole, but I think that's wrong, it should be from a level above to a level below, because the analogy requires real gravity to a be mysterious force that causes the billiard balls to seek lower potentials on that rubber sheet... The proper analogy should be a vertical tube from an upper level to a lower level. The black hole drains the top level, the white hole empties into the bottom level. And only motion within the rubber sheet is allowed.

If you think about Stephen Hawking's evaporating black holes, then he's turned the black hole into its own white hole. But instead of familiar collections of objects coming out - like an astronaut - it's just a gas of sub-atomic particles, with maximum entropy. So you see, there's a difference between asking about time travel, black hole travel and entropy reversal at microscopic and macroscopic levels. Substitute an astronaut for an electron, and you'll get the wrong answer.

I think these problems are not easily solved so long as one fails to distinguish between the microscopic level and macroscopic level.

Spiff.

* The quickest way to do this is to throw the table away out of your bedroom - which is an open system**
** except when the door is locked after an argument about tidying up one's room.

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...

Post #28by Hunter Parasite » 21.09.2005, 22:07

That's a very interesting and actually logic counter to my theorie. But still it may be possible for there to no black hole teleportation phenameno, instead of teleporting you could just be thrown into just emptiness. It's an everlasting enigma :?:

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Post #29by Tanketai » 22.09.2005, 04:06

Well, I can't say nothing about black holes or wormholes, haven't put much tought on them...

But as for simple time travel... well, a few days ago it just seemed to me as impossible. See if you can understand what I mean:

Imagine a train. It's going forwards, at an uniform speed. It has a "time machine" inside it. The operator turns the machine on, and it tries to throw the train one second back in time. But, one second ago, the train was exactly where it is trying to go now.

Now, IIRC, that was a law or something that said that two bodies couldn't occupy the same place in space (in this case, the past-train and the present-train). So the train wouldn't be able to go back in time.

And that would be extended to every motion in space. If you try to go back in time, then you invert the motion of the object. (Like a cup falling. If you see it backwards in time, it would go up) Then, everyting going back on time would keep encountering itself in the exact same spot where they were trying to go.

Therefore, no linear time travel. Am I making sense? :?
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