Development of Lagrange Points Tools

[Fenerit]

...
It is relevant, but in my mind the text describes a "state" rather than an "action", which is why I chose "None" rather than "Un-mark".
In English, "Label" and "Mark" can be noun or verb (meaning "to label" or "to mark"), depending on either the context or the readers interpretation
In the case of this tool, it's ambiguous, and is in the mind of the beholder, hence your question, and my emphasis on "in my mind".
Because of this ambiguity, in the English version, my choice of "None" versus "Un-mark", was partly designed to remove the ambiguity inherent in the other 2 buttons so that they would be interpreted as DESCRIPTORS, rather than VERBS in the mind of the user. (This is also a good reason to use the plural forms "Labels" and "Marks", as they are clearly NOT verbs. )

Hi! This part was lacking when I've replied. Then, if they are nouns:

Labels = Etichette
Marks = Marcatori (markers, the only suited translating noun for "marks", being "marche/i" concerning brands, logo and fiscal matters)
None = Nulla (nothing) being "none" = "nessuno"

The questions are the same like in French above:

Che cosa (tu) mostri? - (delle) etichette (what do you show? - labels)
Che cosa (tu) mostri? - (dei) marcatori (what do you show? - marks)
Che cosa (tu) mostri? - nulla (nothing, being the reply "nessuno" grammatically uncorrect; If you answer "nessuno" the question would be: quanti (tu) ne mostri? (how many do you show?)

[Chuft-Captain]

Thanks guys,

I think the first 2 buttons are fairly well sorted. I think we all agree that plural nouns is the way to go in each language. (ie. Answer the question: "What is displayed".)
So, if I understand correctly, the recommendations are::

Code: Select all

(en) Labels -> (fr) ?tiquettes -> (it) Etichette
(en) Marks-> (fr) Marques -> (it) Marcatori


The None/Nothing button is the one which has been problematic or ambiguous, and I must say I'm not even that thrilled with either of those words for this button in English.
Jogad, I have no problem with doing a non-literal translation of (en) None -> (fr) Rien, however I have had another idea which may make it easier for all concerned.

The solution is to make the bottom 2 buttons "actions" rather than "descriptions" (and I think this more accurately describes their purpose) especially as the Reset button was alway going to be an "action", lets make both of them actions.
In this case, I think the "None" button becomes a "CLEAR" button, and the "Reset" button becomes "CLEAR ALL".

The full set would then be perhaps something like:

Code: Select all

(en) Labels -> (fr) ?tiquettes -> (it) Etichette
(en) Marks-> (fr) Marques -> (it) Marcatori
(en) Clear-> (fr) Claire -> (it) Chiara
(en) Clear ALL-> (fr) Effacer tout -> (it) Cancella tutto


Of course, the "Clear ALL" button could alternately remain as "Reset" if that gives easier or shorter or more understandable translations.
What do you think, does this approach work better for you?
(There may still of course be better translations for "Clear" and "Clear ALL" than those provided by BING, but hopefully the situation is now less ambiguous than the "None/Nothing" scenario.)

BTW. These difficulties pale in significance to the those I encountered when I was in France, caused by the combination of my accent and my poor pronunciation of French, which resulted in...

"Merci beaucoup"

sounding to some French ears as:

"Merci beau cul"

.

[Fenerit]

"Chiara" in that contest is unsuited because as noun is a noun for girls. The translator does the translation of the verb "to clear" into an adjective/noun, thus it doesn't render just the "action". Thus:

Clear = Cancella (clear, cancel, erase)
Clear All = Cancella tutto (clear all, cancel all, erase all)

As for "Reset" note that it is a latin word, thus for me is good as it is.

from Old French receter, from Latin recept?re, from recipere to receive
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reset

before it's meaning of "to receive or handle goods knowing they have been stolen" were extended to "clear to restore (the contents of a register or similar device) in a computer system to zero" (because some hung-up has "stolen" the computer's functionality).

[jogad]

Marks = Marcatori (markers, the only suited translating noun for "marks", being "marche/i" concerning brands, logo and fiscal matters)

For exactly the same reasons why "Marcatori" is better than Marchi, "Marqueurs" is better than Marques.

The solution is to make the bottom 2 buttons "actions" rather than "descriptions" (and I think this more accurately describes their purpose) especially as the Reset button was alway going to be an "action", lets make both of them actions.
In this case, I think the "None" button becomes a "CLEAR" button, and the "Reset" button becomes "CLEAR ALL".

This is fine for me.

Code: Select all

(en) Clear-> (fr) Claire -> (it) Chiara

Once again the same mistake occured in French and Italian.
The right translation would be:

Code: Select all

    (en) Labels -> (fr) ?tiquettes -> (it) Etichette
    (en) Marks-> (fr) Marqueurs-> (it) Marcatori
    (en) Clear-> (fr) Effacer -> (it) Cancella
    (en) Clear ALL-> (fr) Effacer tout -> (it) Cancella tutto


For me "Effacer tout" is better than reset and equivalent to "R?initialisation"

[Fenerit]

For me "Effacer tout" is better than reset and equivalent to "R?initialisation"

Even for me, of course. But we coniugate it like verb per se; it's not only a borrowed word from English, being the usual translation for "re-set" = "azzerare" (bring all to zero); "re-start" = "riavviare"; "re-init" = "reinizializzare".

[jogad]

Hi,

My son's girlfriend is Russian and she kindly gave this translation.

Code: Select all

["Lagrange points"] = "Точки Лагранжа";
["Selected"] = "Выделено";
["System"] = "Система";
["Sub-Objects"] = "Суб-объекты";
["Mode:"] = "Режим:";
["Labels"] = "Этикетки";
["Marks"] = "Булавки";
["Reset"] = "Реинициализация";
["Clear"] = "Стереть";
["Clear all"] = "Всё стереть";

The word for "Marks" means the small pins being placed on map.
In Russian there is also a problem with none/nothing (not the same than in French or Italian) and according to her it is best to use the translations of "Clear / Clear all"

[Chuft-Captain]

Thanks Jogad,

... and Большое спасибо to your son's girlfriend.

Unfortunately on my machine, the Russian translation displays like this:

ru.jpg

I assume this is because a cyrillic font is required, and probably not installed on my machine.
I hope / assume that this won't be a problem on machines with the Russian locale.

I have made a few other minor changes to the tool and the translations. See your PM.

Cheers
CC

[jogad]

I assume this is because a cyrillic font is required, and probably not installed on my machine.

No! The required fonts are already there in the fonts directory of Celestia.

It is likely a little omission in the Lua Edu Tools program.

Try to replace the files:
lua_edu_tools.lua in the lua_edu_tools directory and the file
textlayout.lua in the lua_edu_tools/utils directory
by theese two files. (very minor tweak)

I hope / assume that this won't be a problem on machines with the Russian locale.

I hope / assume too...

[Chuft-Captain]

It is likely a little omission in the Lua Edu Tools program.

Confirmed, and your patch worked a treat!
Thanks, on behalf of all Russian ex-patriots.
CC

[Marco Klunder]

Sorry for the late reply (very busy at work lately)

In French, it's just a matter of adding "s" (as in English).
I've assumed the same applies to Italian, and Dutch (just add "s"), but I know that this may not necessarily be the case in all languages.
Please advise if this is wrong.

You're right, live isn't that easy... Dutch:

Code: Select all

   ["Labels"]          = "Labels";
   ["Marks"]          = "Markeringen";

So you were 50% right in your assumption

For future volunteers in the remaining 4 languages, please use the following template for your translations:
Code: Select all ["Lagrange Points"] = "translation";
["Selected"] = "translation";
["System"] = "translation";
["Sub-Objects"] = "translation";
["Mode:"] = "translation";
["Labels"] = "translation";
["Marks"] = "translation";
["Nothing"] = "translation";
["None"] = "translation";
["Reset"] = "translation"

Jogad, I've decided to go with "None" ("Aucunes"), rather than the alternative "Nothing" ("Rien"), simply because to me "None" reads a little better than "Nothing" in this context.
The opposite may be the case in French, but I have to assume that English will be the most used language and give that priority.
You will of course be free to customize your own copy if you think that "Rien" is a better interpretation than "Aucunes" in the French version, or alternatively, I could always translate the English "None" into "Rien", which although it is not a literal translation may be the best interpretation of the actual purpose of the button in French. -- What do you recommend?

I'm a bit lost here about your intented difference between "Nothing" an "None".
Are you intending to use one ore the other, or both ( in that case what is your intended difference between both, to optimise a Dutch translation ?)

Dutch:

Code: Select all

   ["Nothing"]       = "Niets";       
   ["None"]          = "Geen";

But Not exactly knowing your ment differnce between those 2, I cannot validate it now

Marco

[Chuft-Captain]

Hi Marco,

Thanks for your continued input.

The situation now is that between us (Jogad, Fenerit, and myself) we have reached a consensus that the best, least ambiguous solution is to do away with "None" and/or "Nothing".
(see discussion on previous page starting at: this post)

The solution is to use the English words "Clear" and "Clear All" for the last 2 buttons, which makes for an easier, more meaningful translation into (fr),(it),(ru), and hopefully also into (nl) and the other languages as well.

So, we now have:

Code: Select all

    (en) Labels -> (fr) ?tiquettes -> (it) Etichette
    (en) Marks-> (fr) Marqueurs-> (it) Marcatori
    (en) Clear-> (fr) Effacer -> (it) Cancella
    (en) Clear All-> (fr) Effacer tout -> (it) Cancella tutto


"None"/"Nothing" is now deprecated.

All I need for now, is for you to substitute the ???'s in:

Code: Select all

   ["Lagrange Points"] = "Lagrangepunten";
   ["by"]            = "??????";   -- as in: "the frescoes on the walls of the Arena Chapel were created (by) Giotto", or: "Celestia was created (by) Chris Laurel".
   ["Selected"]       = "Geselecteerd";
   ["System"]          = "Stelsel";
   ["Sub-Objects"]    = "Sub-objecten";
   ["Mode"]          = "Mode";
   ["Labels"]          = "Labels";
   ["Marks"]          = "Markerings";
   ["Clear"]          = "??????";
   ["Clear All"]       = "??????";
   ["Reset"]          = "Reset"

Hope that makes things easier in Dutch as well !

Cheers
CC

[Fenerit]

Hi Chuft;

In French, it's just a matter of adding "s" (as in English).
I've assumed the same applies to Italian, and Dutch (just add "s"), but I know that this may not necessarily be the case in all languages.
Please advise if this is wrong.

FYI,
Seem that in italian there is a strange adversion to use the "s" even for doing plurals of the words borrowed from english! Like you've seen, the singular and plurals are made with ending vocals, BUT in words borrowed from english because their popularity and not because there isn't a translation, like "social network" (rete sociale), which plural should be "social networks" (reti sociali), the grammaticians states that the plural can be avoided; that is, the english phrase: "there are several social networks" has the italian equivalent of "there are several social network" (ci sono diversi social network) where "social network" is speech and written in english.

[Marco Klunder]

Back again...
Sorry for not taking part in the discussion and the delay, because of other activities...
BUT STILL VERY INTERESTED

Code: Select all

   ["Lagrange Points"] = "Lagrangepunten";
   ["by"]            = "door";
   ["Selected"]       = "Geselecteerd";
   ["System"]          = "Stelsel";
   ["Sub-Objects"]    = "Sub-objecten";
   ["Mode"]          = "Mode";
   ["Labels"]          = "Labels";
   ["Marks"]          = "Markeringen";
   ["Clear"]          = "Wissen";
   ["Clear All"]       = "Alles Wissen";
   ["Reset"]          = "Reset"

Marco

[Chuft-Captain]

No problem Marco,

Participation is not compulsory.

Thanks for the translations.

CC

[Chuft-Captain]

Guys,

I realized that a more concise style of the labels might be preferred by some people (Especially when viewing the Earth-Moon system.)
This new style does away with the prefix- part of the label (The prefix is useful in a system with many moons, but not so much in a system with only 1 moon. )

Here you can see the Earth-Moon L1-L5 points displayed in this CONCISE style, and the Sun-Earth L1-L2 points in the usual VERBOSE style:

verbose+concise.jpg

As you can see in the screenshot, this led me to re-think the layout and naming of the buttons.

1. Now that there are 3 distinct styles (instead of 2) I've decided to put the 3 style buttons on the LHS, and the MODE, CLEAR, and CLEAR ALL buttons on the RHS.
2. Instead of "Labels" and "Marks", we now have "Verbose", "Concise", and "Marks",
3. "Selected" mode is un-changed, but the "Sub-Objects" mode will now be known as "System" (as in planetary system) - "Sub-Objects" just won't fit on the half-width button.

(There is also some space remaining in case a HELP, or some other button is required at some point in the future.)

Please give me your thoughts on this new design.

Sorry to those who have already provided translations (Fenerit, Marco, Jogad) , but this will need one final effort, as I will now need the language translations for the new button labels:

["Verbose"] = "?????";
["Concise"] = "?????";

I think that this should be the final revision (assuming everyone likes this new layout, and the new labels don't create any translation difficulties).

Cheers
CC

[jogad]

To keep consistent with this

Snap1.gif

I propose
["Verbose"] = "Complet";
["Concise"] = "Concis";

Incidentally, since this translation is made by the official translators of Celestia (Vincent for French), this gives you a method to have the translation in any language you want.

[Marco Klunder]

Dutch:

Code: Select all

["Verbose"] = "Volledig";
["Concise"] = "Beknopt";

I think that this should be the final revision

When/where can I download it and test?

Marco

[Fenerit]

italian:

Code: Select all

["Verbose"] = "Dettagliato";
["Concise"] = "Conciso";

[Chuft-Captain]

Incidentally, since this translation is made by the official translators of Celestia (Vincent for French), this gives you a method to have the translation in any language you want.

Well spotted!
I don't know why I didn't think of that for Verbose and Concise. I could have avoided pestering you guys yet again!

It will be interesting to see how well Marco's and Massimo's translations line up with the official Celestia developer interpretations.
(I'm sure they'll be spot on!)

At least I know how to get the Russian translation now!

[Chuft-Captain]

Just in case anyone whose un-familiar with Lagrange Points is wondering: "What practical purpose can I use the Lagrange Point Tool for?...What's the point of displaying invisible locations in the Solar System?"

Here's a rather beautiful screenshot (IMO) depicting the relationship between the Trojan and Hilda asteroids of Jupiter's orbit and the Sun-Jupiter lagrange points...
CLICK to view fullsize:

Jupiter+Lagrange+Hildas+Trojans.jpg

Note the concentration of Trojans (darker brown colour) around the L4 and L5 points.

I used Abramson's MPCORB asteroid generator, in conjunction with the Lagrange Points Tool to display this.
- Even better: view it in Celestia in the Sun-Jupiter rotating frame (Lock Jupiter with Sun) with time sped up by about 1-10 million.