Celestia development volunteers?

General discussion about Celestia that doesn't fit into other forums.
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t00fri
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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #141by t00fri » 07.05.2008, 18:09

Selden wrote:One thing Celestia is lacking is globular clusters.

Let me just remark that since many weeks I have developed a sophisticated and fully functional globular cluster code package (besides plenty of other stuff). Soon, I shall write a detailed account in CelestialMatters about the astrophysics background of my cluster simulation, the respective code and some examples. See my earlier announcement here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12070&start=15

Unfortunately, since some time, my views about what is important in Celestia development differ persistently from those of Chris L..

Moreover, as I have detailed elsewhere, I think as a Celestia co-author and senior theoretical physicist, I should have more detailed atrophysical information than half a page of general bla, bla, before Chris commits such nontrivial astrophysical code like frame transformations and the like...

Therefore, with considerable unhappyness, I have not yet made up my mind, in what form and what code environment my globular cluster simulation (as well as other code) will be published.

I am currently examining a number of possible alternatives within the GPL setup.

Fridger
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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #142by chrisr » 07.05.2008, 18:27

Hmm. This sounds like an interesting challenge. But before I pursue anything, I'd like to make sure I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. t00fri, it sound's like you've done some major work on globs already... If that is so, then it probably wouldn't be appropriate to do the same thing in matlab code... Let me know what you'll think.

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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #143by t00fri » 07.05.2008, 19:46

chrisr wrote:Hmm. This sounds like an interesting challenge. But before I pursue anything, I'd like to make sure I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. t00fri, it sound's like you've done some major work on globs already... If that is so, then it probably wouldn't be appropriate to do the same thing in matlab code... Let me know what you'll think.

Chrisr

Unfortunately, I have no good recommendation here at this time. I also sign responsible for Celestia's galaxy simulation and did the cluster package within a similarly strict scientific approach.

I don't see much use for Matlab here, since Matlab is a commercial package, while Celestia isn't. I always use PERL for merging catalogs and for extracting and transforming the data to the Celestia frame. I did use a lot of Maple though for doing the required extensive algebraic calculations about the various distributions of globulars before coding.
This will be detailed soon at CelestialMatters.

But there is also quite a lot of non-trivial C++ code to be written besides the catalog data extraction and frame transformation. It has to generate in a procedural/statistical manner the light and color distributions exactly from the parameters given in the best scientific catalogs about globulars.

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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #144by ElChristou » 08.05.2008, 10:50

t00fri wrote:...Unfortunately, since some time, my views about what is important in Celestia development differ persistently from those of Chris L....

Fridger, Chris already explain the why of his last implementations. You are free to ignore those functions if you don't need them, so... where is the real problem? Chris has been contracted to do some tasks and must fulfill his obligations. Beside the bla bla, it seems to me that this is what you dislike. Unfortunately there is not much to do at this level, don't you think? We do agree that many people are using Celestia for professional use without any contributions, but at least the good point is that Celestia will continue to grow. Perhaps some functions won't be to the taste of some, but that should not be a problem if they stay "underground"... So... Let's do what YOU like to see, you are in a privileged position to do so, you can implement (easily) all you want, so why hesitating so much? (...en Fran?ais je dirais que tu veux te faire d?sirer! :wink: (je te taquine!))
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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #145by t00fri » 08.05.2008, 15:08

ElChristou wrote:
t00fri wrote:...Unfortunately, since some time, my views about what is important in Celestia development differ persistently from those of Chris L....

....
you can implement (easily) all you want, so why hesitating so much? (...en Fran?ais je dirais que tu veux te faire d?sirer! :wink: (je te taquine!))

Christophe,

that's precisely what I did during the last weeks and months...No hesitation whatsoever, to the contrary. Anyway, I don't think it's good to expand any further in public on this whole issue. The main point is different anyhow. I am in PM contact with Chris L. and would not have brought up this matter again here, if Selden and Andrea had not suggested the globular cluster project as a "homework" to Chrisr ;-) .

Aha, tu me taquines...quel scandale ;-) . Est-ce que tu es en France, au moment?

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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #146by ElChristou » 08.05.2008, 17:43

t00fri wrote:Aha, tu me taquines...quel scandale ;-) . Est-ce que tu es en France, au moment?

Oui! ...et je profite des produits du terroir! :wink:
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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #147by t00fri » 08.05.2008, 17:47

ElChristou wrote:
t00fri wrote:Aha, tu me taquines...quel scandale ;-) . Est-ce que tu es en France, au moment?

Oui! ...et je profite des produits du terroir! :wink:

Des produits culinaires du terroir?? ;-)

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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #148by ANDREA » 08.05.2008, 20:28

t00fri wrote:...would not have brought up this matter again here, if Selden and Andrea had not suggested the globular cluster project as a "homework" to Chrisr ;-) . F.
Fridger, just to understand what's behind your ;-) : where's the problem?
Personally I asked a lot of things regarding the aesthetic aspect of Celestia (yes, there is not only science, there is also the pleasure to see and to show BEAUTIFUL things).
I received, from you too, some “OK, I’ll do it some day”, but if m3ntol would have not kindly coded most of what I (and other people, too) was asking for (in four days, BTW, without having seen Celestia code before that, so perhaps this was not so difficult and time-keeping to do it :wink), probably no one would have solved this (little, I know) aesthetic problem for me and many people like me that use Celestia to create new interest and knowledge for the Universe, mainly investing our time and efforts on our future, i.e. the next generations.
So, if you want to proceed ONLY along the scientific side of the matter (that fortunately often is beautiful, too, e.g. the Earth obtained using your Nmtools and F-TexTools), you are obviously free to go on this way, but, PLEASE, don’t stop other people that, even without your scientific knowledge, would try to make something new, like chrisr offered to do with globular clusters.
In practice you halted him, and I don’t think this is in agreement with an open source project spirit.
In the last years I showed to a lot of people the globular cluster produced with Rassilon’s add-on, shown in the image below, even if it is far from aesthetically perfect, and surely nor scientifically correct.
Nevertheless, it allowed me to explain them the feeling of living on a planet of a star internal to the cluster, and young students (and adults, too) were fascinated by this.
When your globular cluster generator will be ready and available, surely it will have a very different importance for Celestia, but its totally scientific approach will be largely useless for my needs.
So, why not let other people to produce nice and not so strictly scientific things?
I don’t remember flames raised by you against the plethora of strange systems and worlds produced for Celestia, most of them impossible to exist really, so…..?
And, BTW, have you found someone contrary on the introduction of the LaTeX use in Celestia, even if it will be surely useful for a very small number of people here (and, BTW, chrisr is one of them!)?
Obviously not, because no one here wishes to limit the scientific approach of Celestia.
But you are limiting the aesthetic one, and it’s not correct, it looks like a kind of racism for all of us not scientifically involved, and this is unacceptable, at least by me.
Take it easy, Fridger, this is not a job, it's a pleasure, and should ever be such.
My opinion.
Bye

Andrea :D
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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #149by t00fri » 08.05.2008, 20:45

Andrea,

I think you misunderstood, my post. Surely, nowbody is to be hindered to do whatever they like to do. I just felt it was fair that I let people know that I have done it all. But since the fate of my code is not clear yet, by all means, whoever feels like it should start with his own globular cluster project.

But clearly, the simulation of global clusters is a lot more that generating a bunch of little dots... I thought we are NOT talking about some new add-on for globular clusters, but rather about the C++ code & data base for the official distribution. As far as I know Chrisr is not a C++ programmer?

Celestia ALWAYS adheres to a strictly scientific approach for the official distribution. That is the agreement since > 6 years. So what were you referring to with Rassillons add-on?

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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #150by ANDREA » 08.05.2008, 22:42

t00fri wrote: Andrea, I think you misunderstood, my post. Surely, nowbody is to be hindered to do whatever they like to do. I just felt it was fair that I let people know that I have done it all. But since the fate of my code is not clear yet, by all means, whoever feels like it should start with his own globular cluster project.
May be I misunderstood, but, when chrisr wrote:
chrisr wrote:…before I pursue anything, I'd like to make sure I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. t00fri, it sound's like you've done some major work on globs already... If that is so, then it probably wouldn't be appropriate to do the same thing in matlab code... Let me know what you'll think.

you replied him this way:
t00fri wrote: I don't see much use for Matlab here, since Matlab is a commercial package, while Celestia isn't

It's very different from your later reply to me, here:
t00fri wrote:....whoever feels like it should start with his own globular cluster project.


t00fri wrote: But clearly, the simulation of global clusters is a lot more that generating a bunch of little dots...
And this is the problem: this is valid for you and other people here, but surely most of Celestians DON’T NEED such a perfection, or at least nothing so scientifically exact.

t00fri wrote: I thought we are NOT talking about some new add-on for globular clusters, but rather about the C++ code & data base for the official distribution. As far as I know Chrisr is not a C++ programmer? Celestia ALWAYS adheres to a strictly scientific approach for the official distribution.
I supposed to have been clear when I say that I’m speaking of an aesthetic add-on for globular clusters, looking like a true globular, but without most of the characteristics of the real ones.
I was wrong, my poor English missed its way once again!
But who ever spoke of an official distribution of a globular cluster generator?
Surely not me!
Can’t understand what you mean!
You and the other developers make the official distribution, the other people make addons, freely usable or not, at user's will.

t00fri wrote: So what were you referring to with Rassillons add-on? F.
I was just referring to the fact that, even with a poorly shaped and unscientific addon like Rassilon’s one, it’s possible to make educational activities in a positive way.
If chrisr could change that code, or produce another one (but a simple one), giving the possibility to obtain a correct shape, the average star types percentage, a dimension, spatial distribution and central condensation compatible with the real ones, so much the better!
I’m only asking this, because this is what I need. 8)
I understand and highly appreciate the Celestia scientific approach, but nevertheless I cannot avoid to think that perfection costs a lot of work and time for the developer/s, and a lot of time to be waited for the users.
So, if someone wishes to produce something “less scientific” but in a short time, please ignore him and let us see what happens. :wink:
Bye

Andrea :D
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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #151by t00fri » 08.05.2008, 23:10

Andrea,

this thread is all about Celestia development volunteers, NOT add-on creators (please check the title!). That means people who were supposed to participate in official code development. From that point of view, we need C++ code NOT Matlab and we need a scientific approach.

If you want a new globular cluster add-on, then there is no interference whatsoever, except that your request should have gone to the add-on forum. Since you prefer a non-scientific approach, it can hardly concern the official development.

If Chrisr wants to contribute to the official code development of a globular cluster project, he is certainly welcome. But he will have to do it scientifically, irrespective of my personal preferences and irrespective of what I did already. And he will have to learn C++, since that is what Celestia is coded in. That normally takes more than 3 days...

So altogether, I cannot see any clash between my various earlier statements.

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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #152by ANDREA » 08.05.2008, 23:44

t00fri wrote:Andrea, this thread is all about Celestia development volunteers, NOT add-on creators (please check the title!). That means people who were supposed to participate in official code development. From that point of view, we need C++ code NOT Matlab and we need a scientific approach. If you want a new globular cluster add-on, then there is no interference whatsoever, except that your request should have gone to the add-on forum. Since you prefer a non-scientific approach, it can hardly concern the official development.
Ho ho, what a nice and exhaustive reply to my many questions! :lol:
And as usual you willingly mystify what I told: I don't prefer a non scientific approach, I prefer to have SOMETHING NOW,instead of having EVERITHING IN AN UNKNOWN FUTURE!
t00fri wrote:If Chrisr wants to contribute to the official code development of a globular cluster project, he is certainly welcome. But he will have to do it scientifically, irrespective of my personal preferences and irrespective of what I did already. And he will have to learn C++, since that is what Celestia is coded in. That normally takes more than 3 days...
All this chatters are useless, chrisr has clearly told he can use Matlab, not C++.
t00fri wrote:So altogether, I cannot see any clash between my various earlier statements. Fridger
As usual, Fridger, you never reply point after point, and this is particularly annoying and irrespective of other people’s opinions.
And, as usual, or WITH you, or AGAINST you, there are no other possibilities!
I don't like either, so this ends my posts to this thread.
Go on this way, Fridger, and soon or later you’ll find yourself alone.
My opinion, obviously.
Chrisr, if you are reading this, please don’t take care of all what we wrote, and please try to make YOUR Globular Cluster Addon, it will be very appreciated by a lot of people, believe me! :wink:
Bye

Andrea
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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #153by t00fri » 09.05.2008, 08:04

Andrea,

I am very sorry if something I wrote upset you. But before you go on accusing me inappropriately, let me emphasize once more that there must be a misunderstanding!

According to the subject of this thread, Celestia development volunteers, I have ALWAYS assumed that Chrir was interested in contributing to the development of the official Celestia code! This indeed involves some constraints like C++ coding or collaboration with others who do the C++ coding. And it implies a scientific approach, since that is how the official distribution is set out.

In this context and ONLY in this context, I have felt it fair to let people know that I have done a fully functional, scientific C++ code & data package for globular cluster simulation during the last weaks and months. It uses the best available data from 3 catalogs and certainly satisfies all criteria for being part of the official distribution. I have also made clear however, that the fate of my code is still uncertain because of some ongoing arguments of principle with Chris L. In any case all this would NOT affect any efforts to create a globular cluster add-on outside of the official code development!

Now meanwhile you made quite clear that you rather want as quickly as possible an
Andrea wrote:aesthetic add-on for globular clusters
i.e. that you were not at all talking about the official development for which this thread was actually opened:
Andrea wrote:But who ever spoke of an official distribution of a globular cluster generator?
So here seems to be the misunderstanding.

Many times I pointed out in the past that I have NO stakes whatsoever concerning add-on creation. Hence none of what I previously wrote about Chrisr, Matlab or a scientific approach etc would have the slightest relation to what you requested. But what I wrote was certainly in correct relation to the subject of this thread! My impression, however was that Chrisr understood the purpose of this thread correctly and was rather interested in contributing to the official Celestia development of Celestia. I suppose that precisely for that reason he was unsure whether Matlab was the right tool for this. My response to him was ONLY in relation to the official distribution that is written in C++...

I hope this helped a little to uncover this misunderstanding.

Fridger
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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #154by chrisr » 09.05.2008, 14:17

I've only just finished all my work for the semester yesterday. So I am very excited about this. I never thought I would be doing anything that would be directly implemented into the main distribution. I do not know C++,only Matlab. I do hope that I could program something scientifically pleasing (proper spatial distributions and mass distributions,etc). I know nothing of graphics and will attempt nothing of the sort. The idea I suppose (If my code produces accurate results) could be ported to C++ by someone familiar with both languages. Perhaps roundabout, but it's all I can offer coding wise. Thanks to all for their replies.

Any resource links would be well appreciated.


Thanks to all,
chrisr
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[tex]Happiness = \[\int_a^b \int_c^d \int_e^f \int_g^h U(x,y,z,t)\,dx dy dz dt\] = 42[/tex]
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brushing up on my matlab code

Post #155by chrisr » 21.05.2008, 21:37

To get myself up to full speed with matlab again I worked on some pde code i developed for the 2 dimensional heat equation. Couldn't such a mesh an addtionally mesh be called to be overlayed on top of the planet mesh in regions defined as water. Or rather a series of these meshes to act as an animation. The image provided is as described above using a 2d sin forcing function (which actually should be written to change in time [ie give the wave some kind of velocity], otherwise the amplitude increases locally continually). Any thoughts anyone?

Boundary(260K)
Initial(283)
Forcing function (2d sine function... force = sin(x)*sin(y)
and evolved over 5 seconds.
Just do what makes you happy provided you do not infringe on another's happiness for there is no point in living if you do not have happiness.
[tex]Happiness = \[\int_a^b \int_c^d \int_e^f \int_g^h U(x,y,z,t)\,dx dy dz dt\] = 42[/tex]
If only we knew U!

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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #156by alecjcook » 12.02.2009, 18:43

I can help with a bit of coding and lots of testing (I am a test engineer my trade and a part time junior developer). don't hesitate to get intouch

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Re: Celestia development volunteers?

Post #157by ElChristou » 12.02.2009, 18:57

alecjcook wrote:I can help with a bit of coding and lots of testing (I am a test engineer my trade and a part time junior developer). don't hesitate to get intouch

Sorry to say so but I suppose people won't run after you; on the contrary, if you want to help you should better get in touch with the dev team... Don't take it bad, was just a thought... :?
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