Apollo 11 mission reconstruction - a teamwork

[ElChristou]

Not easy but coming well...

I'm sure that it is not easy. But you guys make it LOOK easy. I'm really looking forward to having such a nice 3D model.

Thanks for showing us these work-in-progress shots; I myself am unskilled in such construction but somehow I derive some vicarious enjoyment seeing it come together, step-by-step, at your hands. I enjoy the same whenever linuxm@n provides new details regarding his 'Back in USSR' packs.

Your're welcome. In fact this kind of thread is also so show to people and in particular to younger that if you really want something, you can do it without problems.
Just look at this engine... at first sight you can say: wouah! complex... too complex I will never achieve this... But after a few minutes looking at the pictures you begin to see the main structure, that's the hard part. A this point you can begin the model and once the main structure is over, the details are just a systematic work of crossing info with several pictures and add things one by one. It's always the same scheme, big work on main structure (dimensions, proportions) then details.
The first part is always very exciting; see the LEM, again at first sight the images are really confused but when you begin to "decode" them, it's a real pleasure, it's like a huge puzzle and finding the missing pieces is really cool.
Now the details are interesting but sometimes are also very boring to do. One have to keep in mind that those models are for a real time use, so one must be quite concentrated during modeling on the number of poly of each meshes, this on hundreds of them, just imagine...
The problem is that it's by the details that you will achieve what I will call the "density" of the model. The details are very important to give realism, to give the right feeling of the craft, it's why you go till the end. Sometimes it's long, hard, but just think in the guys who build the real stuff, the engineers work, the investment of time, money, and just think in the guys on top of such bombs before take off and then you quickly recover courage to go ahead!

I must add that those models are perhaps much better than what we have, but they still are low res models. With the exponential power of configs, I hope to see in a few years someone who will redo all this from scratch with muuuchh more poly!

[ANDREA]

Not easy but coming well...

Not well, but very well indeed!
Just two little notes:
1- I have for sure (from images) that there were 10 spherical tanks, displayed as shown, 5+5 symmetrically, but I'm not sure that there were no more.
I will make further checks, looking at the images of the S-IVB stage mounting on the third Saturn stage.

2- regarding the paintings, take note that the metallic components were painted with Zinc Chromate Primer, MIL SPEC TT-P-1757 Ty1, and I found the conversion to RGB coding that you can use in photoshop or whatelse, and here is the result:



Note how the color looks greener and darker IN A SHORT TIME.
Bye soon.

Andrea

[ANDREA]

Hello and thanks for all the documents they will be very useful. Some words to speak to you about my friend Gilles Mor??re who occupies with me calculations on the N1 rocket. Gilles is of formation scientific and I succeeded in hanging it to celestia. It carries out a complex programe for calculations of celestia's orbit ssc and xyz. Some among you perhaps saw the results obtained with my docking of Soyuz and the lift-off of the N1 rocket. Currently, the program is in rebuilding and we refine calculations manually.( very long ) I must see Gilles tonight, hope he has good news...... Happy to work with Andr?©a and El Christou. Linuxman

And we are very happy to work with you and Gilles, so welcome on board!
After your check of the already available documents, please tell me if you need more information and what, if any, I have tons of NASA docs to dig in, so I'm almost sure that we'll be able to cover all the mission's details.
Bye soon and good work to all of us.

Andrea

[ElChristou]

...2- regarding the paintings, take note that the metallic components were painted with Zinc Chromate Primer, MIL SPEC TT-P-1757 Ty1, and I found the conversion to RGB coding that you can use in photoshop or whatelse, and here is the result:...

Wouah, if this is not sense of the detail!

[ANDREA]

...2- regarding the paintings, take note that the metallic components were painted with Zinc Chromate Primer, MIL SPEC TT-P-1757 Ty1, and I found the conversion to RGB coding that you can use in photoshop or whatelse, and here is the result:...

Wouah, if this is not sense of the detail!

I follow my captain

Andrea

[ElChristou]

...2- regarding the paintings, take note that the metallic components were painted with Zinc Chromate Primer, MIL SPEC TT-P-1757 Ty1, and I found the conversion to RGB coding that you can use in photoshop or whatelse, and here is the result:...

Wouah, if this is not sense of the detail!

I follow my captain

Andrea

Indeed...

[ANDREA]

1- I have for sure (from images) that there were 10 spherical tanks, displayed as shown, 5+5 symmetrically, but I'm not sure that there were no more. I will make further checks, looking at the images of the S-IVB stage mounting on the third Saturn stage. Andrea

I was wrong once again, and this shows how difficult is to obtain sure data on things that changed from one model to the other.
In S-IVB-506 Saturn stage (Apollo 11) the total number of "Ambient Helium Bottles (or Spheres, I found both names!) all around the engine is eight, not ten, but there are two spherical tanks attached to the engine nozzle too, so the total at the end is 10, but NOT SYMMETRICAL.
Fortunately I found the exact distribution drawings, these:



and this is the page with bigger images, if needed:

http://apollomaniacs.web.infoseek.co.jp ... v_s4be.htm

Sorry for the mistake, happy that now it's solved.
Bye

Andrea

[linuxm@n]

After your check of the already available documents, please tell me if you need more information and what, if any, I have tons of NASA docs to dig in, so I'm almost sure that we'll be able to cover all the mission's details.
Bye soon and good work to all of us.

Thank you we don't need more documents.
I think that one will start to work on the mission at the weekend. Gilles must find a last miscalculation which cause problem in its software.

Linuxman

[ANDREA]

... Thank you we don't need more documents.
I think that one will start to work on the mission at the weekend. Gilles must find a last miscalculation which cause problem in its software.
Linuxman

You are welcome.
Bye

Andrea

[ElChristou]

http://apollomaniacs.web.infoseek.co.jp/apollo/sv_s4be.htm

This is really a fan site ... There is some very useful picts of 3rd stage engine... The problem is that as always I cannot resist those docs and the number of poly in increasing without control!!

[ANDREA]

http://apollomaniacs.web.infoseek.co.jp/apollo/sv_s4be.htm

This is really a fan site ... There is some very useful picts of 3rd stage engine... The problem is that as always I cannot resist those docs and the number of poly in increasing without control!!

Happy you like it, like I do.
Regarding the poly number, just a thought, why not a high poly number model (the highest possible with actual high-end cards) , and a scaled down one, for lower end graphic cards?
I understand this means an (almost) double work, but this way all Celestians could enjoy your work, whatever be their graphic card.
What do you think, is it a way that can be followed?
Bye

Andrea

[tech2000]

Regarding the poly number, just a thought, why not a high poly number model (the highest possible with actual high-end cards) , and a scaled down one, for lower end graphic cards?

Now that would be really awesome since the quality of ElChristou's addons are superb and I would also love to see those models in hires, but I also have full understanding for Chris if that is out of the question... (or left for a future updated release)

Just out of curiosity Chris: do you remember how many hours you have put into your different models you have in your list of addons over @ CM?

I wish I could find a way to contribute to Celestia too, but I don't have the skills for that yet.

Keep up the good work.

Bye,
Anders

[ElChristou]

...Regarding the poly number, just a thought, why not a high poly number model (the highest possible with actual high-end cards) , and a scaled down one, for lower end graphic cards?
I understand this means an (almost) double work, but this way all Celestians could enjoy your work, whatever be their graphic card.
What do you think, is it a way that can be followed?...

Well it would be nice but...

1- would double the work (much details etc) only for the hires model, then would be muucchh more work to reduce for the lowres models;
2- my configin general is already on it's knee when I'm ready to end a model (don't forget my config is a low one)
3- it would be impossible for me to test within Celestia with my actual config so...

...Just out of curiosity Chris: do you remember how many hours you have put into your different models you have in your list of addons over @ CM?...

No ideas... Sometimes I can spend a whole week end, sometimes a few hours a day and sometimes I don't touch models for days, but let's say 2 hours a day since my joining date... do the calculation yourself!

And talking about it, don't know when I will stop...

(Click to enlarge)

[ANDREA]

Well it would be nice but...
1- would double the work (much details etc) only for the hires model, then would muucchh more work to reduce for the lowres models;
2- my config in general is already on it's knee when I'm ready to end a model (don't forget my config is a low one)
3- it would be impossible for me to test within Celestia with my actual config so...

Well, first of all the baby is growing up healthy, the engine end of the S-IVB module looks realistic and detailed, very nice IMHO.
Regarding the doubling of the models, I well understand how long takes to make such detailed models, and not only the time needed to make the model itself, but the time you need to understand what to do and what not, and to have a clear idea on how the real thing was, in order to reproduce it as well as possible, with the limitations due to the graphic card resources.

2- my config in general is already on it's knee when I'm ready to end a model (don't forget my config is a low one)
3- it would be impossible for me to test within Celestia with my actual config so...

Chris, do you think it would be possible that someone with higher-end cards (myself, or someone else with 8800 GTX, e.g.) could make these tests for you, just for the pleasure to see what could be achieved, on only a small part of the project, e.g. the simpler one, perhaps the S-IVB module itself?
We all know that you are very clever in modelling and equally clever in reducing the max number of polys to the minimum possible, so I think that, if you would agree, it could be very interesting to push your ability up to Celestia limits.
Mine is a provocation, obviously!
Bye, friendly

Andrea

[ElChristou]

...Chris, do you think it would be possible that someone with higher-end cards (myself, or someone else with 8800 GTX, e.g.) could make these tests for you, just for the pleasure to see what could be achieved, on only a small part of the project, e.g. the simpler one, perhaps the S-IVB module itself?...

Andrea, this is not feasable because I need to check a few times during modeling how things work within Celestia. The feedback and the corrections would be a real nightmare working like this.

Don't forget my goal; I want my models to give the right feeling and I think they do the job BUT also being light enough to run on low/medium config without no much trouble.

Wanting more means wanting an utra realistic model; in this case, more than just the right feeling one want to see a 3D photo, being able to explore each details etc...

To achieve that, you need first a perfect geometry (no more bad edges, poly visible) which will represent 10 times (more for sure) the actual poly count. Then you need to work on materials; without talking of Celestia limitation on the matter, you would have to map hundreds of meshes... Such model on spare time would represent more than a year of work to see the light.

[ANDREA]

...Chris, do you think it would be possible that someone with higher-end cards (myself, or someone else with 8800 GTX, e.g.) could make these tests for you, ...., perhaps the S-IVB module itself?...

Andrea, this is not feasable because I need to check a few times during modeling how things work within Celestia. The feedback and the corrections would be a real nightmare working like this.Don't forget my goal; I want my models to give the right feeling and I think they do the job BUT also being light enough to run on low/medium config without no much trouble. Wanting more means wanting an utra realistic model; in this case, more than just the right feeling one want to see a 3D photo, being able to explore each details etc... To achieve that, you need first a perfect geometry (no more bad edges, poly visible) which will represent 10 times (more for sure) the actual poly count. Then you need to work on materials; without talking of Celestia limitation on the matter, you would have to map hundreds of meshes... Such model on spare time would represent more than a year of work to see the light.

OK Chris, you are surely right, bur please understand me, I'm used to have from you such extraordinary things that, for people ignorant of modelling like me, it's difficult to understand that there is always an insurmountable limit, due to a lot of reasons, time, technology, documentation, etc.
So I tried to have even more, and you explained us that this is not possible.
But I know that what you'll present us in the next days will make us say "WOW!", so take your time and go on this way Chris, thank you for all your effort.
Bye, friendly

Andrea

[tech2000]

No ideas... Sometimes I can spend a whole week end, sometimes a few hours a day and sometimes I don't touch models for days, but let's say 2 hours a day since my joining date... do the calculation yourself!

And talking about it, don't know when I will stop...

Like I thought, quite some hours than. How many years of experience do you have modeling?

Cheers,
Anders

[ElChristou]

...it's difficult to understand that there is always an insurmountable limit...

It's not that it's impossible, all depend of the frame you are within. Celestia is a real time renderer and I can tell you that those models of mine are in the limit of acceptable for this use. When I say acceptable I'm refering to get a good FPS to have a good experience during a session.

With those models it's possible to create some very dynamical movements of camera (in real time) without leaks in the FPS. Too bad Celestia is so hard to control at this level, but I hope to be able (one day) to write some scripts to depict what I have in mind...
Just look at some StarWars model around there... On a poor/medium config, they just are useless within Celestia. To me there is nothing cool in having a mega model when you wait 2 seconds between each frames!

Now for sure I'm pretty sure we will have to talk again about this in a few years when configs will have 20 hearts in line, tera of Mo etc... but right now it's not the time.

...How many years of experience do you have modeling?...

Some...
Well I've done my first steps in 92, and I can tell you that at this time it was quite expensive to do 3D!
Now I think I've been using 3D for my job during approx 8/9 years...

BUT this don't mean that you cannot do the same! I'm pretty sure that with 3 to 6 months of experiments/works one can do very nice things if one really want it!

[ANDREA]

...it's difficult to understand that there is always an insurmountable limit...

...Just look at some StarWars model around there... On a poor/medium config, they just are useless within Celestia. To me there is nothing cool in having a mega model when you wait 2 seconds between each frames!

I agree with you, because in my previous message I was meaning that given limits are due to a lot of reasons, and the "possibility to use flawlessly the model in poor-medium configs" is one of them.
But I don't agree that the evolution of graphic cards, memories and CPUs will take that long as you say.
I'm sure that in a couple years we'll have totally new available technologies, mainly for CPUs that, as they are actually, have reached their physical limit (despite the dual, 4, 8, 16 and so on cores, that are useless for most of common users).
So let's see what will happen in the next future, and a couple years from now we'll speak again of this.

Meanwhile, back to the business side: do you need any other information, document, image, detail for the models?
Nothing for the Saturn first and second stage?
Bye soon

Andrea

[ElChristou]

...Nothing for the Saturn first and second stage?...

No, no please, I won't be able to resist! no, I'm joking, no complete Saturn V for now, I got enough with this %#&! engine which is becoming Vostok like!