Apollo 11 mission reconstruction - a teamwork

[ElChristou]

...I was only thinking how all this stuff could be with model's shadows....
Well, perhaps in the future, who knows...

Yep, I had the same thought; indeed all the inner part of the 3rd stage should be in the shadow almost all the time...

Just to make clear what Chris means when...

Tx mate! in fact, it's also why those models take me such time, one cannot do what he want. Perso I want them the most accurate possible within my skills. It's a kind of tribute to the great accuracy of Celestia engine...
Now it's true that only people who already knows the details of the ship (same for Vostok, Voyager, LibertyBell) can really appreciate... for the other folks, they are just some cool models...

[ANDREA]

...

Just to make clear what Chris means when...

...Now it's true that only people who already knows the details of the ship (same for Vostok, Voyager, LibertyBell) can really appreciate... for the other folks, they are just some cool models...

Nope Chris, this time I don't agree with you.
I think that the main purpose of this thread was to demonstrate how such a kind of very ?€?heavy?€

[ElChristou]

[quote="ANDREA"]...I'm sure, Chris, that this adventure will have a positive influence on Celestians, and none will just say ?€?a cool model?€

[ElChristou]

Ok, Tx to Paul Roberts, a member @ nasaspaceflight, we have some new unseen shots with several important details. Here is one of them:


Note: here's the original copyright from Paul:
Photo taken Oct 24, '06 at Johnson Space Center.
Copyright Paul Roberts.
Permission is granted to reproduce this image for personal or non-profit use only. Use for profit must be pre-approved by copyright holder.

Now, my question is if we have any other doc to cross check the structure of the bottom part of the IU (red arrow). Till now it's the first time I see it...

[Cham]

This is a model of the original. Not the real thing.

[ElChristou]

This is a model of the original. Not the real thing.

I don't think it's just a model made for museum, many parts (not visible here) are real, too complex, missing stuff, etc... Now concerning the base of the IU, even if it was a model, I don't think the guys would add some fake details just for the fun... (specially in a Nasa museum)

In all case it's also why I ask for a cross checking...

[Cham]

I already saw some models in a space and aeronautics museum in NY, with "fake" details added to a model, to help the model transport. Models are just that : models.

I don't think the real thing would be placed like this in a simple hangar with that man standing in the back, without any protection devices, shields, etc... especially in an horizontal position. I'm pretty sure this is a just a model, with some "real" details shown inside, on the walk way side.

[ElChristou]

I already saw some models in a space and aeronautics museum in NY, with "fake" details added to a model, to help the model transport...

it's clear the black metallic structure is not part of the rocket!

I don't think the real thing would be placed like this in a simple hangar with that man standing in the back, without any protection devices, shields, etc... especially in an horizontal position. I'm pretty sure this is a just a model, with some "real" details shown inside, on the walk way side.

Beuh... I don't know... now it's a gigantic piece of junk... not sure it need a special security system (would be pretty hard to quit the museum with the CSM in the pocket! )...

Anyway, concerning the unknown detail, if it don't appear anywhere else, then adios...

[ANDREA]

I already saw some models in a space and aeronautics museum in NY, with "fake" details added to a model, to help the model transport. Models are just that : models. I don't think the real thing would be placed like this in a simple hangar with that man standing in the back, without any protection devices, shields, etc... especially in an horizontal position. I'm pretty sure this is a just a model, with some "real" details shown inside, on the walk way side.

Sorry Cham, you are wrong.
In the official page of NASA Johnson Space Center regarding the "Grand Opening for Restored Saturn V Rocket, 08.01.07", here
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/hom ... ening.html
you can read:
"The Saturn V is one of the largest and most significant artifacts in the Smithsonian?€™s National Air and Space Museum collection. It has been on loan to Johnson since 1977. The rocket is made up of parts from launch vehicles originally designated for Apollo 18 and 20".
This confirms our opinion.
But, just to give you som more information, this is another image from Paul Roberts, same place, same object:



Do you really think that a "fake model" would heve been produced with such a detail and, moreover, in such a scrapped way?
I don't!
Bye

Andrea

[Cham]

Andrea,

We are not talking about the same details here ! Obviously !

I was talking about the small square details on the black borders, as indicated by ElChristou.

[ANDREA]

Andrea, We are not talking about the same details here ! Obviously !

Sure, but in your previous post you wrote::

...already saw some models in a space and aeronautics museum in NY, with "fake" details added to a model, to help the model transport. Models are just that : models. I don't think the real thing would be placed like this in a simple hangar with that man standing in the back, without any protection devices, shields, etc... especially in an horizontal position. I'm pretty sure this is a just a model, with some "real" details shown inside, on the walk way side

And now you say:

I was talking about the small square details on the black borders, as indicated by ElChristou]

Cham, if my (little, but sufficient) English knowledge didn't fade away all of a sudden, I believe that you was speaking of the full stuff, not of its details, or at least this is what you wrote.
Bye

Andrea

[Cham]

Andrea, maybe my English was wrong. What I've said is there are some real stuff inside the model (cables and boxes). I've also said that the small square holes on the black belt are fakes. I don't think there is any of these "holes" on the real thing. That's all. Is that clearer now ?

[ElChristou]

Hey guys, don't you think this kind of considerations are a bit off topic?

Fake or not (not in this case, but it's true that museum own mokups -> many Voyager shots I used where from mockups, and it was hard to verify the authenticity of details), the question here is to cross check the bottom of the IU...

[ElChristou]

Andrea, maybe my English was wrong. What I've said is there are some real stuff inside the model (cables and boxes). I've also said that the small square holes on the black belt are fakes. I don't think there is any of these "holes" on the real thing. That's all. Is that clearer now ?

Cham, tx for your opinion, but what we need in a case like that is something like a shot or a diagram to be sure. I also think sometimes but in this case I'm not a specialist so my personal opinion cannot be really trusted, it's why I asked...

(between us, I also think there could be something odd with this structure)

[ANDREA]

Andrea, maybe my English was wrong. What I've said is there are some real stuff inside the model (cables and boxes). I've also said that the small square holes on the black belt are fakes. I don't think there is any of these "holes" on the real thing. That's all. Is that clearer now ?

OK Cham, all clear now.
But equally I don't think that the detail given by Chris has been added to this display, if not existing in the original.
I'll try to explain the reason why:
as you read in the NASA link:
?€?It was to the point where if we didn?€™t intervene now, future attempts to save it would require replacing a lot of the original materials. We wanted to save as much of the original material as possible.?€

[ElChristou]

The main problem with the Apollo missions is that for the LEM just like for the CSM and also for the Saturn V itself, the crafts of each missions have a few difference here and there. So it's possible that this structure is real, but also perhaps it wasn't visible on Apollo 11...

It's why, again, a cross check is necessary...

[ANDREA]

Chris, thanks to Paul Roberts' infornmation on the Jonson Space Center the new Saturn V display opening, I searched and.. voil? !
Give a look at this image:



Moreover at this link, where I found the above image:
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-030104a.html
you can see a lot of images taken during the Saturn V restoration, many of them showing details we had not till now.
Enjoy!
Bye

Andrea

[ElChristou]

Chris, thanks to Paul Roberts' infornmation on the Jonson Space Center the new Saturn V display opening, I searched and.. voil? !
Give a look at this image:...

Moreover at this link, where I found the above image:
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-030104a.html
you can see a lot of images taken during the Saturn V restoration, many of them showing details we had not till now...

Andrea, are you kidding? it's the same! When I talk about cross checking it's with a different source! Can be shots during assembly of a mission, during take off, etc... do you see what I mean?

Now, this new link is pretty interesting...

[LordFerret]

I'm sorry I didn't take a camera with me when I went to NASA in Florida's Kennedy Space Center (a few years back)... they have a full Saturn V (the real deal) suspended from the ceiling on display. They also have original Gemini and Apollo capsules on display - complete with charred heat-shieldings (but stripped-down interiors).

[Spaceman Spiff]

For orientation: I think this applies generally in the space industry...

During mission development, several 'models' can be built of the same thing: the first is the Structural Model (for mechanical vibration and thermal testing), then the Engineering Model (for electrical and functional testing) and finally the Flight Model (to be space qualified and 'used'). There are variations on this theme from mission to mission.

Sometimes the Engineering Model is converted to a Flight Model if there was a, e.g., launch failure, it is 'that good' - I think this happened for Cluster II.

For the Saturn museum piece, I initially thought it was an Engineering Model, and that would be far more accurate than ElChristou would need. Often, museums or space centres are given the SM or EM for display.

However, as Andrea showed, the piece is actually an abandoned Flight Model. The 'change' on the IU: it looks like (from what we have seen here) that a design change was made, but there's no telling yet when after Apollo 11 it happened. So, yes, one is right to be skeptical about simply adopting that piece as gospel.

Spiff.