SSC FILE

[Xarthat Xio]

Maybe dinodude just don't know where to search?

OK, Mr. Schemp, just stop this discussion here. If any more you have to say me- send a private message.

[ElChristou]

...I am not at all irritated, but what do you guys think why we spent all this effort to provide a detailed documentation for Celestia??

It's to avoid this kind of questions that a special note for newbies would be welcome on the main page of the forum, to redirect them to the must read files, this way at least there will be no excuses to avoid all the documentation... (But as Selden told me via PM, he need Chris opinion on the matter... (between us, seeing how Chris treat us I find Selden's patience really awesome!))

[ElChristou]

Maybe dinodude just don't know where to search?

OK, Mr. Schemp, just stop this discussion here. If any more you have to say me- send a private message.

Hey Xio, watch out how you spell Fridger's name, I think something is missing...



BTW, just a note about your statement; dinodude said he checked all the indicated places but hasn't find anything. To me this mean:

1- he find out where to search but in front of so much to read he lose courage and give up

2- he just think we are a band of idiots (-> we will solve his problems on demand without any effort from his part)

I want to believe it's case 1, but in this case what really need dinodude is just to know that we are all with him, we already know that he will reach his goal, so we will pray hard to help him.

[t00fri]

Maybe dinodude just don't know where to search?

You must be joking! How does one enter a house? Yes, through the front door. Celestia's "frontdoor" is here:

http://www.celestiaproject.net/celestia/

exhibiting a clean click menue, including Documentation. Going there, offers right away a reasonably up-to-date manual, written by a gifted professional teacher with vast numbers of instructive illustrations!

Next, there is a link to a FAQ collection and notably a link to a further, more specialized Documentation page on the Motherlode server. OK, clicking on the latter brings you here:

http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/catal ... ation.html

In transparent ordering one may download e.g. the Celestia key chart with essential key shortcuts, scripting guides for CEL and LUA script languages and detailed data file guides, notably explaining also SSC files.

For instance a good overview is by Selden

http://www.lns.cornell.edu/~seb/celesti ... files.html

OK, Mr. Schemp, just stop this discussion here. If any more you have to say me- send a private message.

How about spelling at least my name correctly?? I will continue this discussion as long as I find it worthwhile!

Bye Fridger

[Xarthat Xio]

Look, I know some men that enters the house through the window... I hope you understood what I meant of.

Sorry Fridger, I don't wanted to insult you. I mean only that if you have personal attentions to me- send it via PM. If you still want to waste your energy on the completely newbie, do as you want.

[Fenerit]

Hey Guys, I guess the reasons of both the parts; on one side took place the solution for certain not properly understood Celestia's features, on the other the frustation to be tell all the time the same things about the introductory remarks. Perhaps it's better to be not a great satisfaction to Teemu Ruskeep?¤?¤, though!

[Guckytos]

Hmmm,

well on the other hand I think this discussion and the questions of dinodude, that should have been answered IF he looked at the information, brings me again to the point where I raise that same question:

Why isn't the documentation on essential files like SSC, STC and other stuff packed into the official distribution?

And don't come at me with different file formats for different systems. There are PDF documents on SSC and STC and others, I should know it because I wrote one of them

On the other hand there is now a book on Celestia, at least in german. It was written by Adriondack, and I hope I find time in my vacation to read it in depth. It has around 400 pages and is a complete compendium of Celestia, as far as I can tell.

So, why not pack good documentation to the official Celestia distribution and then give someone the good old "RTFM"?

[t00fri]

...
Why isn't the documentation on essential files like SSC, STC and other stuff packed into the official distribution?

Lack of manpower for such sort of time consuming tasks! Moreover, PDF files easily tend to become O(MB) in length!

1) I dare stating that a person who is unable to find and follow up the simple chain of documentation links that I explicitly indicated above, will also be unable to operate Celestia in any controlled fashion!

2) Furthermore, from my long experience with the habits of many newcomers to this forum, I am convinced that your point is NOT at the root of the phenomenon.

In my view, there is a particular type of new users that occurs quite frequently these days, often triggering the above kind of discussions:

-- they have never read a single book to the end in their whole live! Implying that reading extensive manuals tends to become a real challenge to their available concentration.
It's the TV and 'online forum' generation in "perfection"!

-- they are typically young, below 20, say and are used to learn operating software like it mostly happens in case of PC games: clicking with trial & error until something seems to work...

While Selden exhibits an adorable patience with these users, I am unfortunately far less understanding in this respect. I tend to get impatient however, as a matter of principle and NOT because of my adrenaline

On the other hand there is now a book on Celestia, at least in german. It was written by Adriondack, ...

While I had no chance yet to checking this book in detail, I have reasons to conjecture that a considerable part of this commercial book by Adriondack (~100 pages [chapter 1]) , represents predominantly a translation of Frank Gregorio's original, free 1.4.1 manual into German (without giving appropriate credit to him?)... Since you seem to own this book, you could perhaps help to clear this up?

Should my supposition be incorrect, I apologize, of course!

Bye Fridger

[selden]

Fridger,

Frank's document is a guide to running Celestia. Only a small portion of Ulrich's book describes how to run Celestia. Most of it documents the catalog files and scripting.

And, yes, he does include appropriate credits.

[t00fri]

Fridger,

Frank's document is a guide to running Celestia. Only a small portion of Ulrich's book describes how to run Celestia. Most of it documents the catalog files and scripting.

I am happy to hear this and thus infer you have his book on your desk (or did you just inspect the available index?) I am probably correct that your knowledge of German is not that good as to reveal to you a quantitative impression of the closeness of the German text to the original?


The basis of my conjecture is the German text of Ulrich's 1.4.1 handbook that is offered as the ONLY public test reading for the "much revised" commercial 1.5.0 handbook:

http://www.celestia.info/files/Celestia ... raltet.pdf

+++++++++++++++++++++
This is indeed VERY close to Frank's english original and all the acknowledgements & citations have been cut out! That by itself is quite unpleasant...
+++++++++++++++++++++

In the commercial book there is however a brief 'credits' section (parts of page 395), where some names might have been mentioned. But the contents of this page is unavailable to me.

Bye Fridger

[selden]

Fridger,

Yes, I have a copy of the book. While my knowledge of German is almost nonexistant, it includes enough English terms taken from Celestia for me to be able to puzzle out the intent of most of the sections.

The file you reference has been revised and expanded to become Chapter 1 of the book: that chapter is 117 pages long. There are a total of 7 chapters in the book.

It generally is not appropriate to criticize books that you haven't read. In the U.S., this type of argumentation is commonly called "attacking a paper tiger" -- arguing against statements which do not actually describe the thing one claims to be disagreeing with

[t00fri]

Fridger,

Yes, I have a copy of the book. While my knowledge of German is almost nonexistant, it includes enough English terms taken from Celestia for me to be able to puzzle out the intent of most of the sections.

The file you reference has been revised and expanded to become Chapter 1 of the book: that chapter is 117 pages long. There are a total of 7 chapters in the book.

It generally is not appropriate to criticize books that you haven't read. In the U.S., this type of argumentation is commonly called "attacking a paper tiger" -- arguing against statements which do not actually describe the thing one claims to be disagreeing with

Note that I am not criticizing the book! I was only criticizing what I HAVE read: namely the version of Ulrich's 1.4.1 Handbook on his site , where the credits to Frank and Celestia's co-authors have been definitely cut out!

+++++++++++++++++++
But you could simply clarify the main issue: Are Frank's english original manual and the names of the Celestia co-authors properly acknowledged on page 395 of the book? You don't need to know German to answer this question.
+++++++++++++++++++

Bye Fridger

[selden]

Frank is credited on page 13.

Additional credits (which look to me to be appropriate) are on page 389, and the members of the Celestia development team also are acknowledged on page 390.

[t00fri]

Frank is credited on page 13.

Additional credits (which look to me to be appropriate) are on page 389, and the members of the Celestia development team also are acknowledged on page 390.

Many thanks, Selden,

then I am happy and the issue is closed. Next time I get to my bookshop, I am sure I can find a copy to compare the similarities between the German and Frank's English text in detail.

Bye Fridger

[LordFerret]

This whole matter on newbies, it isn't the first time it's been brought up, nor the first time patience and tempers have been tested. I sympathize with all.

Selden -

Being this is an obvious issue, can't you create a new catagory here in the forums and put it at the top of the list, called "Newbies Read Me First Before Posting!"... and in it, put all the relevant links, which would essentially be the contents of the Sticky: Postings of Interest: FAQs, features, news & collections thread. It is apparent that the majority of *new* users just fly past this resource. It needs to JUMP OUT AND BITE THEM... top of the list, bold letters.

Eh?

2-cents

[Fenerit]

LordFerret's idea is good; perhaps the page in question can be shown at the moment of the new user registration.

[ElChristou]

This kind of idea is not really new, unfortunately Selden need the approval of Chris...

[t00fri]

This kind of idea is not really new, unfortunately Selden need the approval of Chris...

And Chris is hiding...so once more things are STUCK!

Bye Fridger

[tech2000]

This kind of idea is not really new, unfortunately Selden need the approval of Chris...

And Chris is hiding...so once more things are STUCK!

Bye Fridger

... which brings up the following question: How is Cosmo Celestia comming along? Maybe it's time to fork it and go from planning to coding? That is up to you Fridger...

I think alot of us would like to see that evolves.

Regards, Anders

[ElChristou]

Hey guys, blabla bla, but what about dinodude? hope his problem is solved now...

After 3 pages I have the felling he won't reappear.... Hope I'm wrong...