Lua Edu Tools beta version

[t00fri]

Vincent,

for the first time I have just installed your lua-tools. Certainly quite nice.

But...

What happens to small FoV?

I cannot zoom into fields below 1 degree say?? So many galaxies cannot be looked at. Is there a hidden switch to small fields??

Bye Fridger

[Vincent]

I cannot zoom into fields below 1 degree say?? So many galaxies cannot be looked at. Is there a hidden switch to small fields??

Fridger,

Of course, I thought about a way to reach very small FOV, especially for viewing galaxies, that, as you know, I really mind .

That's why I've added a zoom_amplitude entry to the config.lua file. The default value for zoom amplitude is 0, but you can increase it up to 100 to reach very high zoom values.

Then, I might set a higher default value for zoom_amplitude. Just let me know what value you would use by default to reach small FOV without altering the precision of the slider for large FOV...

[ElChristou]

A 80 value for zoom amplitude is not so bad; I wonder if you should not increase the default value...

[t00fri]

Vincent,

OK, I suspected correctly that there was some available configuration option to reach small FoV's. Thanks. Yet the present slider seems way too "rough" for really reaching MANY smaller size galaxies. Notably the dwarf galaxies of the local group for example.

Try displaying NGC 4. A zoom amplitude of 80 only gets you down to 5' but Celestia's minimal field is only about 3.2". NGC 4 cannot be displayed by far with a zoom of 80.

I would suggest to normalize your zoom amplitude to the minimal available FoV (3.2") in Celestia. Call this 100, say. I am afraid that your slider is way too "short" for smooth zooming down to such small FoV's.

You should better subdivide the zoom into two sliders: one for the decades [or hexa subdivisions: degree->min->sec] of FoV , and one for the fine adjustments within one order of magnitude.

Bye Fridger

[t00fri]

Vincent,

with a zoom amplitude of 800 (!!!) one reaches NGC 4 conveniently. A good setting is to put automag magnitude @45 deg = 9.0.

However, there are various instructive applications that need the full range of FoV down to 3.2". Like looking at the moons of Jupiter from one's backyard on Earth...

Another option that we exploited long time ago in the XEphem ephemeris program would be to arrange 2 sliders closely along the horizontal and vertical borders of the canvas. Then you have enough 'handle' for smooth zooming. The y-slider could be FoV or latitude and the x-slider could be RA or longitude depending on the coordinate system.

Bye Fridger

[Vincent]

Fridger,

with a zoom amplitude of 800 (!!!) one reaches NGC 4 conveniently. A good setting is to put automag magnitude @45 deg = 9.0.

I think you would get the same FoV range with a zoom amplitude of 100 since this is the limit I've set in the Lua code. For example, I can reach a FoV of 8.6" with a zoom amplitude of 100.

However, there are various instructive applications that need the full range of FoV down to 3.2". Like looking at the moons of Jupiter from one's backyard on Earth...

Yes, I entirely agree. We should find a way to make the FoV slider use the full range of FoV down to 3.2" with a smooth zooming.

Another option that we exploited long time ago in the XEphem ephemeris program would be to arrange 2 sliders closely along the horizontal and vertical borders of the canvas. Then you have enough 'handle' for smooth zooming. The y-slider could be FoV or latitude and the x-slider could be RA or longitude depending on the coordinate system.

This is a great idea. However, since the current FoV slider can already reach a reasonable value of 8.6", I'd like to keep it as it is now, for non-extreme observations. Then, we could add a "Telescope Mode" button to switch from the standard FoV slider into the one you've described, using the whole width/height of the viewport to get a really smooth zooming from 120?° down to 3.2".

Fridger, thanks for spending some time improving the Lua Tools. Really appreciated.

[t00fri]

OK, you probably assigned a logarithmic mapping. With a zoom amplitude of 100, the last factor of 60, say from 9.5" to 1' is a TINY slider range and hard to control. And it's not a really smooth control.


Bye Fridger

[ElChristou]

I think the Edu version should show easely the must see galaxies (and a few more of course), then a specific tool much more performant could be created for dso survey (buttons to mark objects, grid and of course a fov slider adapted for this...)

[t00fri]

I think the Edu version should show easely the must see galaxies (and a few more of course), then a specific tool much more performant could be created for dso survey (buttons to mark objects, grid and of course a fov slider adapted for this...)

I think the edu version should also allow people to stargaze from Earth and look at the (extended) moons of Jupiter, for example. That needs a FoV of 3.2". They may also want to see Cassini encircling Saturn from their "backyard".

One of the central highlights about Celestia has always been the "seemless exponential zooming ability". That's a VERY EDUCATIONAL feature

Let me quote from the Celestia page:
http://www.celestiaproject.net/celestia/

All movement in Celestia is seamless; the exponential zoom feature lets you explore space across a huge range of scales, from galaxy clusters down to spacecraft only a few meters across.

We should try and preserve this as much as possible. That's why I proposed the long sliders along the canvas borders.

Bye Fridger

[Cham]

Why is there any zoom slider in the "EDU" interface, in the first place anyway ? The shift-mouse is already better. Why making the user (students) more confused with several **different** ways to do the same thing ? IMO, it's better to completely remove the zoom slider from the EDU interface. Personally, I find that most buttons are useless in that interface. It could be made simpler.

[dirkpitt]

This began to happen when I added a "clickable" option to the Lua boxes, and because the Lua Tools need at least one tick to update the bounds of the main Lua Window (screenBox).

The bug should be fixed now:
http://vincent.gian.club.fr/celestia/Lua_Edu_Tools.zip

Please let me know if everything is OK on your system(s) now.

Seems to be fixed. Thanks!

[t00fri]

Why is there any zoom slider in the "EDU" interface, in the first place anyway ? The shift-mouse is already better. Why making the user (students) more confused with several **different** ways to do the same thing ? IMO, it's better to completely remove the zoom slider from the EDU interface. Personally, I find that most buttons are useless in that interface. It could be made simpler.

Martin,

Vincent's point is probably that his overlay spares the users to learn what buttons need to be used for which purpose.

You will easily imagine, however, that I personally sympathize with your point of view. I also find the SHIFT+mouse_left way smoother and also like the instantaneous reset to the default FoV by means of the middle mouse button. After all it was me who coded all this

This was also one reason why I looked at the lua tools relatively late (only today). Moreover, I still think that the considerable text output somehow tends to destroy the graphical impression along with the "lonely atmosphere of Space"...

But putting my personal feelings aside, I think one may nevertheless discuss the lua tools as a useful and FLEXIBLE addition that may be helpful for certain tasks.

Bye Fridger

[Cham]

Moreover, I still think that the considerable text output somehow tends to destroy the graphical impression along with the "lonely atmosphere of Space"...

Exactly. I feel the same. There is too much information and it's a pain to read. I prefer to ask my students to read the book they're using for my astronomy courses.

While beautifully done, there are only few things I like with the EDU interface and which, IMHO, should be hard coded permanently in Celestia : the compass and the celestial coordinates of the selected objects (RA and Dec).

The distance shown with the EDU interface doesn't coincide with the distance given by Celestia. This is confusing.

The compass is really perfect. I was able to move on Earth's surface directly to the north pole, using the compass, until I get to the polar texture singularity. I was able to see the texture singularity of the ground under my feet and of the clouds above my head. The compass was also rotating abruptly while I made few more steps on the north pole. I said to myself : "cool !".

[ElChristou]

IMHO, the Time box is pretty cool and could be also a base to a new hard coded stuff; with this box you can adjust with precision the speed of time, resulting in nice slow rotations for example thing impossible to do with the default Celestia...

Off course we all agree that the UI on screen is obstuctive it's why for example it would be cool to see if LUA permit the possibility to show/hide the UI on the right edge of the screen when mouse touch the edge. I think Vincent has this point in his ToDo list...

[Cham]

I removed most of the useless buttons from the EDU interface. I also removed the "info" layer since it was way too obstrusive for me. But how can I have back the lower-right info of Celestia (tracking, follow, ..., FOV, etc), without using the shift-I shortcut each time ?

[Vincent]

I think the Edu version should show easely the must see galaxies (and a few more of course), then a specific tool much more performant could be created for dso survey (buttons to mark objects, grid and of course a fov slider adapted for this...)

Of course, I agree. To me, the viewing of DSOs and more particularly of galaxies currently represents one of the most interesting features from both the scientifical and the educationnal points of view. That's why I've been working on the galaxyBox for several weeks now...

I think the edu version should also allow people to stargaze from Earth and look at the (extended) moons of Jupiter, for example. That needs a FoV of 3.2". They may also want to see Cassini encircling Saturn from their "backyard".

One of the central highlights about Celestia has always been the "seemless exponential zooming ability". That's a VERY EDUCATIONAL feature

Here, I also agree. That's why the "Telescope Mode", based on your suggestion to use the whole width/height of the Celestia-window, could be one of the most interesting and useful features of the Lua Tools. It could be used from Earth surface, in association with the Planetarium Mode, or from space, .e.g., with Selden's great Pointing Hubble addon. Having a feature that allows to switch the view from naked-eye to a full-featured Telescope Mode does really make sense to me, once again, from both the scientifical and the educationnal points of view.

Why is there any zoom slider in the "EDU" interface, in the first place anyway ? The shift-mouse is already better. Why making the user (students) more confused with several **different** ways to do the same thing ? IMO, it's better to completely remove the zoom slider from the EDU interface. Personally, I find that most buttons are useless in that interface. It could be made simpler.

Fridger's answer is quite perfect to me :

Vincent's point is probably that his overlay spares the users to learn what buttons need to be used for which purpose.
...
But putting my personal feelings aside, I think one may nevertheless discuss the lua tools as a useful and FLEXIBLE addition that may be helpful for certain tasks.

Morover, we also often complain about students because we always have to repeat things a hundred times before they remember something. I feel a little bit like this at the moment, since I've repeated a hundred times that the different features can be turned off by simply quoting them out with '--' in the config.lua file...

Exactly. I feel the same. There is too much information and it's a pain to read. I prefer to ask my students to read the book they're using for my astronomy courses.

So do I. But have you thought about the possibility to add active links in the information text that would open specific scripts or CelURL ? For example, Frank's ED activities would really benefit from using active links in texts and images within Celestia...

While beautifully done, there are only few things I like with the EDU interface and which, IMHO, should be hard coded permanently in Celestia : the compass and the celestial coordinates of the selected objects (RA and Dec).
...
The compass is really perfect. I was able to move on Earth's surface directly to the north pole, using the compass, until I get to the polar texture singularity. I was able to see the texture singularity of the ground under my feet and of the clouds above my head. The compass was also rotating abruptly while I made few more steps on the north pole. I said to myself : "cool !".[/

Thanks Martin, I really appreciate since I've really coded this compass from scratch.

The distance shown with the EDU interface doesn't coincide with the distance given by Celestia. This is confusing.

Hum hum, student Martin, I already told you by mail that the Lua Tools display the distance from Earth, whereas Celestia displays the distance from the observer...

Off course we all agree that the UI on screen is obstuctive it's why for example it would be cool to see if LUA permit the possibility to show/hide the UI on the right edge of the screen when mouse touch the edge. I think Vincent has this point in his ToDo list...

Yes, this is right. I think that I will need Hank's precious help to work on this...

I removed most of the useless buttons from the EDU interface. I also removed the "info" layer since it was way too obstrusive for me.

Ah, happy to see that you finally found the quoting out "--" trick !

But how can I have back the lower-right info of Celestia (tracking, follow, ..., FOV, etc), without using the shift-I shortcut each time ?

You'll have the standard Frame text back by disabling the Observer Mode Box (obsModeBox) in the config file.

Seems to be fixed. Thanks!

You're welcome DW. Thank you for catching this bug !

[Cham]

The distance shown with the EDU interface doesn't coincide with the distance given by Celestia. This is confusing.

Hum hum, student Martin, I already told you by mail that the Lua Tools display the distance from Earth, whereas Celestia displays the distance from the observer...

Well then, why is Celestia gives me 101.51 LY and the LUA interface gives 101.45 LY, for a far away star while the observer is pretty close to Earth ? It should be exactly the same !

[Vincent]

Well then, why is Celestia gives me 101.51 LY and the LUA interface gives 101.45 LY, for a far away star while the observer is pretty close to Earth ? It should be exactly the same !

Martin,

Thanks to your report, I've synch the KM_PER_LY value of the Lua code with the one used in the Celestia code (astro.h). The Lua interface now displays exactly the same distance as the standard information text, even for very distant stars.

Thanks for your very constructive and helpful bug report !

Try displaying NGC 4. A zoom amplitude of 80 only gets you down to 5' but Celestia's minimal field is only about 3.2".

Fridger,

Can you confirm that the minimal FoV is 3.2" ? I can only reach a field of 3.6". Then, I get the same bug as reported in another thread...

[Cham]

[Thanks for your very constructive and helpful bug report !

You are welcome !

Is there a way to use the pictures without the text info ? And is there a way to make the picture frame movable by clicking on it ?

[Vincent]

Is there a way to use the pictures without the text info ?

Of course, just edit the 'info/infoText.lua' file, or the 'locale/infoText_fr.lua' file if you run the french version. If you want to disable the whole infoText, just rename the infotext.lua file into infoText.lua.no.

And is there a way to make the picture frame movable by clicking on it ?

Well, I can make all the frames movable, but then, I'm facing a bug when resizing the Celestia-window. That's why I've disabled this option in the current version...