Celestia 1.5.0 prerelease 1

[PlutonianEmpire]

Great pre-release, chris!

I mean, can anyone say Photoreal?

Sure looks more and more photoreal with each release to me!

[dirkpitt]

Dirkpitt, after applying your patch, children objects can be selected neither from their localized nor from their english name. Moreover, object are not found anymore in scripts.

This sounds more like Sui's report of an entirely different, existing bug, not something caused by my patch:

1. Typing "Sol", and "/"
2. Selecting planets with tab key
3. Then pressing enter, and in case selected object name is translated, the object is not selected.

(emphasis mine)

[Sui Ota]

This patch seems to fix the problem.

With this patch, no satellites of planet whose name is localized are loaded, under both Windows XP and Mac OS X. And as Vincent reported, I can't select by localized name nor English one.

In Windows, children objects and their parent can be selected from their localized name in the Text Input Console. Isn't it the expected behaviour ? As for locations, their name appears in the console as soon as you enable their rendering.

It is true that we can select the object by typing localized name "directly"(ex. typing "Lune", in French), but we can't select from its parent object (ex. "Sol/Terre/Lune").

Examples in French (before apply the patch):
Earth ... OK
Terre ... OK
Sol/Earth ... OK
Sol/Terre ... NG
Sol/Earth/Moon ... OK
Sol/Terre/Lune ... NG
Sol/Earth/Lune ... NG

In case of NG, satellites and locations are not listed as complement after typing "/".

[revent]

I'd typed a nice long detailed message about this onto the Bug thread, but of course phpbb didn't post it for me ('post mode not defined', or some such error) and it was gone when I hit the back button. Once again I get to curse and remind myself to copy long posts to the clipboard before hitting the 'preview' button. I should remember that by now...<sigh>

I guess I'll just try to briefly state the issue, without all the explanation. Hopefully it'll make sense.

I'm having problems defining orbits around the SSB. I can put objects around it easily enough, using

"Newobject" "SSB"

, but Celestia doesn't consider them to be in the solar system. They're not in the system browser, and you have to select either the SSB or an object defined in an ssc as orbiting the SSB (The Sun does NOT work) in order to select them by typing the name. You /can/ type the name of a solar system object when the SSB or an object orbiting it is selected, tho.

I ignored this originally while I was experimenting, and determined that my test asteroid, Ceres, would stay ~20-200 km from it's barycentric SampledOrbit position with a barycentric keplerian orbit (yes, I did obtain the barycentric osc. elements for Ceres, via Horizons), while the heliocentric versions of it (default Celestia, Bowell's astorb, MPC, JPL's ssdb and JPL's elements.numbered) were all 1-2 Mkm away. Seemed like enough of a difference to be interesting... Actually, given the period of the 'wobbling' between the two barycentric orbits, I think the keplerian orbit was more accurate. Ceres isn't very perturbed, and the period seemed to match my sample interval.

Anyway, back to the point. I referred to Selden's 'Celestia Notes' page for hints, and tried unsuccessfully to get my heliocentric roid into the solar system. According to Selden's page, there seem to be two possible ways to do this, both of which involve putting the roid into Sol's namespace (i.e. an entry starting "NewObject "Sol"). Neither worked for me...

1. Selden quoted a post from Chris, talking about Saturn, that said you could use

OrbitBarycenter "Sol/SSB"

to get the object in a barycentric orbit. This didn't work, at least for me. The object disappeared.

2. It also seemed that using

OrbitFrame {
EclipticJ2000 { Center "SSB" }
}

should work. It didn't. The object /was/ present in Celestia, but it's orbit was heliocentric, not barycentric.

The problem, from what I can tell, is that while barycentric objects aren't in the solar system, solar system objects (i.e. "newobject" "sol") can't be in orbit around the barycenter because it isn't in the solar system. It's a catch-22.

[Chuft-Captain]

I'd typed a nice long detailed message about this onto the Bug thread, but of course phpbb didn't post it for me ('post mode not defined', or some such error) and it was gone when I hit the back button. Once again I get to curse and remind myself to copy long posts to the clipboard before hitting the 'preview' button. I should remember that by now...<sigh>

If you take too long to type then yout phpBB session may automatically timeout...(after a period of inactivity from the server's perspective)

You could try editing in a text editor then cut and paste into a post, or regularly preview your long posts as you're creating them ... to remind the server you're still around.

[selden]

In an SSC, the Barycenter and OrbitBarycenter keywords (which were defined for v1.5 in CVS only) have been replaced by ReferencePoint and the Frame constructs. See the definition of Pluto in solarsys.ssc for an example. Sorry: I haven't updated my notes page.

[dirkpitt]

This patch seems to fix the problem.

With this patch, no satellites of planet whose name is localized are loaded, under both Windows XP and Mac OS X. And as Vincent reported, I can't select by localized name nor English one.

Ok, I can confirm this at least. Please ignore my patch - I'll have to find another way to fix the OS X browser.

Examples in French (before apply the patch):
Earth ... OK
Terre ... OK
Sol/Earth ... OK
Sol/Terre ... NG
Sol/Earth/Moon ... OK
Sol/Terre/Lune ... NG
Sol/Earth/Lune ... NG

Have you tried "Terre/" or "Lune/"? (no "Sol/" or "Sol/Terre" in front)? This seems to work for me. Typing the full path works as expected in English but does seem to be partially broken for localizations.

[Sui Ota]

Have you tried "Terre/" or "Lune/"? (no "Sol/" or "Sol/Terre" in front)? This seems to work for me. Typing the full path works as expected in English but does seem to be partially broken for localizations.

Yes, "Terre/" and "Lune/" are OK, and their satellites and locations are listed. "Terre/Hubble"(Hubble is not translated) is OK, while "Terre/Lune" is NG. "Earth/Lune" is either.
And, though the name is translated, it is OK in case the selection is a location(ex. OC?‰AN ATRANTIQUE NORD).

[chris]

2. It also seemed that using

OrbitFrame {
EclipticJ2000 { Center "SSB" }
}

should work. It didn't. The object /was/ present in Celestia, but it's orbit was heliocentric, not barycentric.

The problem, from what I can tell, is that while barycentric objects aren't in the solar system, solar system objects (i.e. "newobject" "sol") can't be in orbit around the barycenter because it isn't in the solar system. It's a catch-22.

It seems you've found a bug with reference frames . . . The center of a frame can't refer to an object outside its system (however, the restriction doesn't apply to the target and observer objects in a two vector frame.) It's not typically a problem. You don't want to place an object into our solar system with an orbit centered on Sirius! But, the Sun and solar system barycenter are also considered separate systems. I'm working on a solution. It's important to be able to use both the sun and solar system barycenter as reference frame centers.

--Chris

[Hungry4info]

Yeah, I'm dissapointed with the star rendering too. I prefer the way 1.4.1 did it, where the flare grew with the star as you got closer. It made it look much more realistic than it does now. If anything, I think that the flare should get brighter as you get closer to it. So that when near the surface, you may not be able to see the sun's limb too well. That's just my idea though.

The "mie" thing, the new atmospheric rendering, the cloud shadows, and the eclipses onto meshes don't work on my computer for this prerelease.

=..(...

[selden]

Hungry,

Are you saying that all of the new effects did work for you with one of the unofficial v1.5 releases?

The new Mie atmosphere effect and the others you mention all require the OpenGL v2 render path. I didn't think the 9200 supported that. Type a Ctrl-V to step through the render paths available on your system.

[Hungry4info]

Yeah, none of the new effects work for me, nor have they ever with any previous unofficial versions of the new Celestia. It honestly seems no different, except for galaxy rendering (beautiful job, by the way). From what I've seen from screenshots, 1.5.0 look a lot better, but the version I have doesn't work.

I think you're right about the Open GL thing. Using Ctrl + V, and setting the ring shadows on, when I go to Saturn, Celestia messes up. The stars become monochromatic, and Saturn's surface becomes significantly distorted. On "Multi-texture" though, it works okay. Saturn's shadow is on the ring, but the ring casts no shadow upon the planet. So I'm pretty sure my Open GL is messed up.

If Open GL is what causes the new rendering and what-not, then it's why the new Celestia does't work quite right. Anybody have any ideas as to how much a better video card costs?

[selden]

You should be able to find a decent AGP card for between $50 and $100. A Web search turned up several FX 5200 cards for under $40(*). That model will show all of Celestia's current eye-candy, although Chris is thinking about future improvements that'd require a 6300 or better.

____
* - avoid the ones without a fan. The heat-sink-only 5200 cards run too hot in 3D mode.

[Johaen]

You should be able to find a decent AGP card for between $50 and $100. A Web search turned up several FX 5200 cards for under $40(*). That model will show all of Celestia's current eye-candy, although Chris is thinking about future improvements that'd require a 6300 or better.

____
* - avoid the ones without a fan. The heat-sink-only 5200 cards run too hot in 3D mode.

It's entirely possible that Hungry4info only has a PCI slot, considering (I'm pretty sure atleast) that the 9200 is a PCI card. I know that's all my old PC had.

[chris]

You should be able to find a decent AGP card for between $50 and $100. A Web search turned up several FX 5200 cards for under $40(*). That model will show all of Celestia's current eye-candy, although Chris is thinking about future improvements that'd require a 6300 or better.

____
* - avoid the ones without a fan. The heat-sink-only 5200 cards run too hot in 3D mode.

I would advise against getting a GeForce FX 5200. Spend a bit more and get a GeForce 6 series card, ideally a 6600 (which can be found for less than $100) or better. 256MB of video memory will be useful. If you've got more than $100 to invest, there are many more possibilities.

--Chris

[fsgregs]

If you've got more than $100 to invest, there are many more possibilities.

Chris:

I'm pleased to report that I have just convinced my school principal to upgrade our science lab 3 year old Pentium IV 1.6 GHz CPU HP computers in my high school to 1 GB of RAM and a new Nvidia card. They have given me $170 per computer for the upgrade.

We currently have 512 MB of RAM and a Nvidia 5600 FX card with 4X AGP slot loaded on each of our 30 lab computers.

Given your above quote, and a typical cost of about $50 for another 512 MB of RAM, I'm left with about $120 or so for new cards. Newegg.com is selling GeForce 6800 XT cards with 256 MB VRAM for $120.00. Is that what I should buy (30 of them), or would you recommend something else?

PS: The output on the back of the 6800 XT card appears to be two "DVI-I" ports. My computers have the typical 15 pin video monitor plugs. Can the DVI plugs be converted with an adapter, or is this card not going to work for me? If not, what card should I use for AGP slots with 15 pin plugs?

Your advice is most appreciated.

Frank

[chris]

If you've got more than $100 to invest, there are many more possibilities.

Chris:

I'm pleased to report that I have just convinced my school principal to upgrade our science lab 3 year old Pentium IV 1.6 GHz CPU HP computers in my high school to 1 GB of RAM and a new Nvidia card. They have given me $170 per computer for the upgrade.

We currently have 512 MB of RAM and a Nvidia 5600 FX card with 4X AGP slot loaded on each of our 30 lab computers.

Given your above quote, and a typical cost of about $50 for another 512 MB of RAM, I'm left with about $120 or so for new cards. Newegg.com is selling GeForce 6800 XT cards with 256 MB VRAM for $120.00. Is that what I should buy (30 of them), or would you recommend something else?

I would recommend instead the GeForce 7600 GS AGP with 256 MB, which can also be found for $120:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814130076

It's based on a newer architecture, so it's faster, uses less power, and has a few more features.

PS: The output on the back of the 6800 XT card appears to be two "DVI-I" ports. My computers have the typical 15 pin video monitor plugs. Can the DVI plugs be converted with an adapter, or is this card not going to work for me? If not, what card should I use for AGP slots with 15 pin plugs?

Adapters are available and should ship along with any card that doesn't have a 15-pin VGA port. It looks like the 7600 GS does have a VGA port though.

I also think that your choice to spend $50 of the upgrade budget on an extra 512MB of RAM is an excellent one.

--Chris

[dirkpitt]

And similar problem is in Celestia Browser, under Mac OS X (current CVS).
I can't select satellites nor locations of planets or satellites whose name is localized. And no buttons are invalid.

I checked in a fix for this problem (please try recent CVS). The other bug, Sol/Terre etc not selectable when typed in the console, is not yet fixed.

[Sui Ota]

I checked in a fix for this problem (please try recent CVS). The other bug, Sol/Terre etc not selectable when typed in the console, is not yet fixed.

OK, I tried recent CVS and the Browser worked well as before. Thank you very much.

[Wilson1950]

I hope I am allowed to post this. I have only been using Celestia for about a month. I am not young, as most of you probably are. I am a 56 year old male. However, I have all my life been interested in the space program; science, and astronomy. I have to tell you, this program has brought the planets, our solar system, and our universe alive to me. I now use Celestia as my desktop program. Thank you so much, all of you, for making it possible!!