Dreaming about a better Celestia Forum...

[t00fri]

Hi all,

here I am, with my glass of good German beer next to my Compi, scanning what's up tonight in the Celestia Forum...

Well, DanielJ has been banned today. Selden certainly did the only reasonable thing. Didn't create big waves, though...back to normal everybody, soon after.

But what is "normal" in the forum, recently?

Unfortunately, being honest (as usual), I have to confess that "normal" means boredom, some flat 2 line posts, often just 1 post per night e.g. related to somebody's exotic Linux distribution hanging up during Celestia installation...

Is this the reason why I am hanging out here every evening since 4 years?? Is this the reason why I wrote 4000+ posts or Selden even wrote 5000+ posts?
Is this the reason why many of you are drifting by every day around the same time?

What the HECK is going on here??

Sure enough, I will be gone soon or later if this doesn't change. Sure enough Malenfant is again preparing to tell everyone that I am blackmailing you, throwing tandrums (no idea what this is, actually ), or holding people at ransom...

Let it be...

I am NOT, of course! I actually KNOW that many of you feel similar and I also KNOW that many of YOU interesting guys have unfortunately LEFT the forum, recently.

So, is there something we can do about this situation?

Here are some dreams of mine, not entirely born from "lack of experience"

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1) The forum has a lovely crowd of "regular Celestians" with very diverse knowledge but rather similar general interests. We all know each other quite well in a sense, without having ever met in person, of course...
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2) However, the forum also has far too many "flat 2 line posts" that are intrinsically superfluous. At least to me these are like nitrogen in our atmosphere

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3) Given our similar interests and the very diverse spectrum of knowledge, my dreams are that many more of us might get together on interesting projects! People could contact each other, form little working groups and regularly get back reporting on their progress in the forum. Great examples so far were our "educational" guys or the MAC-OS sub-community.
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4) I KNOW from many personal, most pleasant experiences that this is really great fun and MUCH MORE! In some cases I have approached others, sometimes I was approached by others. It's unimportant which way it happens.

5) Please note that in such projects the diversity of knowledge is crucial for a fruitful result!

Here is a simple example. I am a scientist knowing quite a few things about science from scratch. But of course there are lots of things I don't know. Selden for example, is not a scientist, but he is a REAL ARTIST in finding relevant things on the WEB! Combining e.g. such abilities can lead to amazing results. Or combining professional know-how in graphics with people devoted to model add-ons for Celestia... and...and...


Perhaps some of you sensed the point I am trying to make...then it was worth writing this post!

Cheers,
Fridger

[Dollan]

So... what you're advocating is a forum with Celestia "regulars" only, who would be willing to work together on Celestia-related projects? If so, I see no problem... but what happens when discussion staves off over there? Odds are even Celestia regulars will have periods of time when they will have to forego such things in favor of work or family or what have you. And the fewer members you have, the fewer posts you will have. The posts may have more actual content, but I doubt (from my own experience on smaller, "specialized" forums and mailing lists) that you will have the volume of traffic.

Or am I misunderstanding you? Would you prefer less traffic and more "content"? There's certainly nothing wrong with that.

For myself, I rather enjoy the eclectic mix at THIS forum. I've even learned a few things from the so-called "flat" posts, not being an expert in all things myself

...John...

[t00fri]

So... what you're advocating is a forum with Celestia "regulars" only, who would be willing to work together on Celestia-related projects? If so, I see no problem... but what happens when discussion staves off over there? Odds are even Celestia regulars will have periods of time when they will have to forego such things in favor of work or family or what have you. And the fewer members you have, the fewer posts you will have. The posts may have more actual content, but I doubt (from my own experience on smaller, "specialized" forums and mailing lists) that you will have the volume of traffic.

Or am I misunderstanding you? Would you prefer less traffic and more "content"? There's certainly nothing wrong with that.

For myself, I rather enjoy the eclectic mix at THIS forum. I've even learned a few things from the so-called "flat" posts, not being an expert in all things myself

...John...

Please note, I dont intend to be "scholastic" about all this. The idea would rather be to use such collaborations among interested people a a "seed" that may grow eventually into something more attractive for everyone.

I advocate to go more into depth together. Let's take someone's recent question :

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How would a world with a Helium atmosphere look like.
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Sure enough, some "out of the pocket" 2-line answers can be given and presumably have little effect. But the same topic could serve as a MOST INTERESTING little study project for some people that find this question interesting and start to search the net, and respective literature that is widely available!

That's all.

Bye Fridger

[Dollan]

I guess I was assuming that this was going to be the purpose of Celestia Matters (assumptions can be bad, I know, but the lack of information made the assumption seem logical).

At any rate, why not try it? Start another forum, see who you can attract, and go from there. If it draws the interest you hope, then things will take care of themselves.

...John...

[Malenfant]

Well, as has been said many times before... if you're bored then do something about it yourself. You're going to have to get used to the signal to noise ratio though, there's a lot of people here now and they're not all as focussed on Celestia's development as you'd like them to be. That's just how it is.

Maybe it's time for a new FT version of Celestia perhaps? Or to work on another project that people can get interested in and involved with? I'm sure you can come up with something like that anyway.

Or maybe you are just plain bored with it. If that's the case then go have a break and come back when your interest is refreshed.

One thing is for sure, the only way to make a forum interesting for you again is to start the ball rolling yourself.

[t00fri]

Well, as has been said many times before... if you're bored then do something about it yourself. You're going to have to get used to the signal to noise ratio though, there's a lot of people here now and they're not all as focussed on Celestia's development as you'd like them to be. That's just how it is.

That is a rather complete collection of answers that I think are BESIDES the point

Note that my post was NOT a mere complaint (to which your reply would fit), but rather a concrete proposal.

Maybe it's time for a new FT version of Celestia perhaps? Or to work on another project that people can get interested in and involved with? I'm sure you can come up with something like that anyway.

There is quite a bit going on without being advocated in public. I will not make a separate release. When Chris is back, we'll soon make a new prerelease containing our stuff as well as quite a few neat new things Chris has been looking into.

One thing is for sure, the only way to make a forum interesting for you again is to start the ball rolling yourself.

Why that? The forum has plenty of guys with initiative and good ideas...I can sense the great potential, but the ball dosn't want to start rolling (yet)...

[Malenfant]

Note that my post was NOT a mere complaint (to which your reply would fit), but rather a concrete proposal.

I know. But it's generally better just to get something started than ask about it first. Interested people will get attracted to it once it's underway and it'll pick up steam that way.

Why that? The forum has plenty of guys with initiative and good ideas...

See above. If you just propose something then you'll probably end up disappointed in the reaction. If you go ahead and start it instead, then assuming it is worthwhile people will join in anyway.

That's what I've seen happen elsewhere on other forums anyway. Of course, that experience is supposedly irrelevant here

[Telepath]

If you just propose something then you'll probably end up disappointed in the reaction. If you go ahead and start it instead, then assuming it is worthwhile people will join in anyway.

This is known as the "less talk" and "more action" principle, and usually works in any sphere.

[t00fri]

Note that my post was NOT a mere complaint (to which your reply would fit), but rather a concrete proposal.

I know. But it's generally better just to get something started than ask about it first. Interested people will get attracted to it once it's underway and it'll pick up steam that way.

Why that? The forum has plenty of guys with initiative and good ideas...

See above. If you just propose something then you'll probably end up disappointed in the reaction. If you go ahead and start it instead, then assuming it is worthwhile people will join in anyway.

That's what I've seen happen elsewhere on other forums anyway. Of course, that experience is supposedly irrelevant here

I don't think it has to be me who has to start with such forum experiments . One reason is that since weeks I am very busy with coding and developing. And I do this together with people from this forum. So I just do what I suggested today...since a long time.

And yes perhaps I will start something new. But who knows where that will be.

Also I never get tired making the point that THIS forum might well have some UNIQUE features lacking elsewhere

[Malenfant]

I don't think it has to be me who has to start with such forum experiments . One reason is that since weeks I am very busy with coding and developing. And I do this together with people from this forum. So I just do what I suggested today...since a long time.

It's evidently bugging you enough that you write a long post wishing things could be different, so I'd say it does have to be you who starts it. If you're not prepared to put in the effort to change things when you're the one who wants to see things happen then why should anyone else bother? (and note, this applies regardless of who posted the idea in the first place).

Also I never get tired making the point that THIS forum might well have some UNIQUE features lacking elsewhere

Maybe it does, but the general dynamics are the same as any other forum. But I have no doubt that you will carry on regardless by thinking that is it is somehow different despite this.

[MalcolmP]

Hi all,

snips of the usual self-promotion by the usual Fridger

As you have often said to DanielJ, if you want something doing, do it yourself.
Start some interesting discussion without all the preamble of how good you are and how long you have been here etc and interesting folk will nodoubt join in.
If you are bored, it is possible that we are also.

I agree with Malenfant.

[RocketMan@JSC]

Fridger,

I agree with all your points and wish this forum was more active.

However, I'd like to point out a few observations.

First, this stuff takes alot of time. I have four big tasks at work and the new Celestia stuff is fourth. I'm hoping it will bubble up to 2 in a few weeks. Family, job, social activities, coding and being active in the forum all take lots of time.

Second, I'd like to see more interest from the professional folks in education, science and engineering, like myself. Like I said, making Celestia useful for astrodynamics and hate to say it (games), will draw in a lot of good people. Celestia can easily keep being what it is now and be even more to a larger group of people. Like it or not the visualization part is needed for astrodynamics and gaming alike. Make Celestia a space visualization rendering engine and it can be used in all these ways.

Third, in regards to our suggestions, it seems like they are all shot down. Tec, Apollonion, and myself all see this important use, yet the ideas are effectively nullified. I've had a post trying to just get tec's attitude part added for spacecraft, and no one has said one word. We don't control the code and all I know is Chris has the keys to the whole thing.

Fourth, some kind of design document would help developers like me try and understand this large set of source code. And while I'm ranting about it, why not add doxygen comments to go with the doxygen html output.

Like I said before, I hope you stay. You have contributed very much to Celesita and deserve recognition for it just like all the others. This program is certainly something to be proud of.

Best Wishes,

Scott

[buggs_moran]

I agree with the collaboration aspect and having more "going on" in the forum. Many good things are in the works as we are all aware of. We are all also aware of the time and energy we put in as a group in our off hours.

Fridger, one thing I used to like was watching your progression with the galaxy rendering from the early purple to the first FT release. Keeping the forum up to date with your progress was encouraging and interesting (and beyond me). We all could put our comments and oohs and aahs in along the way. Some of the others speak of you needing to get the ball rolling, I think that you are involved more than most of us with the progression of Celestia. Just doing what you did back when you were developing the galaxies would be sufficient in my mind to drum up quite a bit of conversation. I think we keep to ourselves during development too much. I am just as guilty as anyone.

I myself am collaborating on two projects right now.

The first is a catalogue of cataclysmic binaries that pull from a base of textures and models to create hundreds of systems on the fly. I am working on this with an astrophysicist in England who is answering many questions for me and supplying me with data. He has used Celestia and my beta addon in a recent professional talk on his work.

The second is with Andrea. We are making a historical journey of the universe, from Ptolemy > Copernicus > Brahe > Galileo > Now. We have data from the Almagest and are using epicycles for Ptolemy's view and maps from each period for Earth. I will also take this chance to ask if anyone has come up with a way to have start and end dates for stars.

One thing I suppose that would be good, is for people like us to do more posting on our progress (e.g. your galaxies) so that work isn't duplicated, we can all follow along, and others can help in the projects. I think what happens is that we get so involved with development and talking outside the forum (in email and PMs), that we don't post unless we think we have achieved something worth posting. Perhaps we can do some kind of collaboration posting or create sticky posts for topics that have high traffic or interest...

And oh yeah, are you going to share the beer or what? Perhaps what we really need is a Celestia meeting (with beer).

[bh]

what we really need is a Celestia meeting (with beer). Count me in. Oh. And some nice jazz music in the background.

[t00fri]

I agree with the collaboration aspect and having more "going on" in the forum.
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The first is a catalogue of cataclysmic binaries that pull from a base of textures and models to create hundreds of systems on the fly.

....
The second is with Andrea. We are making a historical journey of the universe, from Ptolemy > Copernicus > Brahe > Galileo >

Oh sorry, Buggs, I should have mentioned these projects explicitly. They are lovely examples of what I was thinking of! Like this very original idea you are following up with ANDREA to model the historical views about our solar system!

The whole point of my thread was to try and encourage more people to do what you and others are doing already!

That's the kind of activity that makes such a forum interesting....Along the same lines I see those ongoing discussions and attempts towards a RealTime interface for Celestia (tec, RocketMan@JSC,...) or the interesting issue of a possible SPICE interface etc.

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My plea was therefore towards intensifying or starting little collaborations on a BROADER level, rather than by initiative of just one guy (e.g. myself) . Personally, I have more projects in the making with various people than my spare time really allows. Similar as in your case...
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And oh yeah, are you going to share the beer or what? Perhaps what we really need is a Celestia meeting (with beer).

Well sharing beers seems one of the harder tasks in our VIRTUAL community ...

[Paolo]

Fridger I agree with you on many aspects.

And I?€™ve seen many contributions saying almost the same things that I?€™m saying from so long.

I continue to see some main issues behind this situation:
- The missing of a roadmap ( No one knows what will be the future plans for Celestia, the dev-team is not coordinated)
- Excessive slowdown of releases (In order to get interest and feedback it is necessary to continue to deploy with regularity new releases, betas, RC [Release candidates] DCP [Developers Community Previews] as executables not only as CVS.
- Lack of windows programmers (it is the most used version, there?€™s no one from loooong time developing it)
- Lack of maintainers (Beside the efforts of Don, Grant (I miss them a lot) and fgregs, no one is working on the package and on the user?€™s documentation. IMHO the Wiki is the best approach to this issue)
- Fragmentation (developers had spent a lot of efforts in porting the ?€?application?€

[Chuft-Captain]

Why not a virtual meeting in Celestia? With the realtime interface that Tec is going to develop it would be almost trivial to transform Celestia in a 3D Chat. Ok Ok, a bit too visionary.

I like it. We could design our own 3D avatars and have the meeting anywhere in the C-universe. Now if only Victor and Vincent's sound patch could do VOIP!

[buggs_moran]

Personally, I have more projects in the making with various people than my spare time really allows. Similar as in your case...

Your last sentence is actually what I was trying to get at in my post. It would increase activity in the forum if we all had some idea of what those Celestia related projects and collaborations were.

Well sharing beers seems one of the harder tasks in our VIRTUAL community ...

Hmmm, we'll have to work on that too as well. Thank you for the recognition on the projects.

*I raise my glass to you.*

Good luck to Germany today against Costa Rica...

[Telepath]

Well sharing beers seems one of the harder tasks in our VIRTUAL community ...

I think if Fridger is going to buy us beers, I'm going to have to get me a PAYPAL account.

[t00fri]

It would increase activity in the forum if we all had some idea of what those Celestia related projects and collaborations were.

This seems a very good proposal. We could think of a sticky post in the Development board? We could even think of two sticky ones:

** ongoing activities with names of members
** proposed activities with specs of the kind of talents wanted

*I raise my glass to you.*

In turn let me raise my glass to you

There is one CATCH, however: I NEVER use a glass when drinking beer

Good luck to Germany today against Costa Rica...

Well thanks, but I am NOT at all interested in soccer We have specially invited a friend tonight who is also NOT interested in soccer...


Cheers,
Fridger