And the effect of this Quizz was...

[Rassilon]

There are 8 pages in this thread... Thats equivalent to 8 pages of code that could have been written to 'improve' Celestia...

[Don. Edwards]

A very good point.

Don

[Malenfant]

I don??t need more rules. I know my way around here, just as you do. Sometimes someone makes an error, but that is fine, too, it is usually recognized and does not really disrupt the mechanics of the board.

You may know the way round here. So may I. But someone new on here won't though, and will inevitably make some faux pas to piss people off (like post a quiz or something). And then we'll get this sort of argument again.

Rules aren't really for our benefit, they're for everyone else's. Though frankly, I don't know what is or isn't allowed here at all. Quizzes certainly weren't on my radar before that one was posted.

Common sense, precedence, by popular vote, by demand from the Admin... We *have* rules: it is just that you feel the need for more, and i don??t.

So can you tell me what those rules are that we already have? All I can think of is "no politics, no religion, no personal attacks". There was nothing in there about 'no quizzes' before... but apparently now there is?

I'm not a fan of this wishy-washy, touchy-feely, off-the-top-of-one's-head, do-what-you-like, "common sense", arbitrary management style. I like there to be fixed guidelines that everyone knows of and everyone can agree on - then there's no ambiguity. I prefer order to chaos.

They aren??t. They are just superfluous, for now.

Well, they'll be superfluous til the next time something cited in them comes up and people start arguing about it again...

You misunderstood. We all have the power to leave. On a board such as this, it is all the power you need.

Well Fridger apparently doesn't have this power, given how often he's threatened to leave and then hasn't - I know I've called his bluff on it several times and he's always remained . If anyone doesn't like the way things are done here then you're right - they should just walk out... without making a scene. There's no point in threatening to walk out while yelling "I'm gonna do it! I'm gonna do it! Don't make me!" - that just makes them look foolish.

[rthorvald]

You may know the way round here. So may I. But someone new on here won't though, and will inevitably make some faux pas to piss people off

That is what we have the moderator for: to help the new members find their way around. And if you get pissed off by a newbie making an error, i really don??t know what to say. But then you don??t, do you? You help them politely in the right direction, and if that does not help, you invoke the Moderator...

Rules aren't really for our benefit, they're for everyone else's

That sounds scary...

So can you tell me what those rules are that we already have? All I can think of is "no politics, no religion, no personal attacks". There was nothing in there about 'no quizzes' before... but apparently now there is?

After writing so many words about this as you have, i will credit this with it being late in the night or something: you know perfectly well that this isn??t about quizzes, it??s about a disagreement with the moderator on what material is suitable where. Nobody would raised an eyebrow if it was posted here in Purgatory.

Well, they'll be superfluous til the next time something cited in them comes up and people start arguing about it again...

We don??t argue about the quiz, we argue about a policy decicion that is a little too vague for our liking. The entire thing boils down to this: Selden wants a lighter touch on the policing than we do. That is perfectly fine, and it leaves each of us with the choice of participating or not. God knows Selden has got enough feedback on his decicion to make his own judgements, too, and part of the job is to evaluate that for future reference. What will come of that is up to him, and that is fine, too. You just don??t feel that is enough. And there i disagree: i say this straighens itself out over time. Policies evolve, and this thread is part of that process. In a community as small as this one, i say that is sufficient.

- rthorvald

[Malenfant]

So can you tell me what those rules are that we already have? All I can think of is "no politics, no religion, no personal attacks". There was nothing in there about 'no quizzes' before... but apparently now there is?

After writing so many words about this as you have, i will credit this with it being late in the night or something: you know perfectly well that this isn??t about quizzes, it??s about a disagreement with the moderator on what material is suitable where. Nobody would raised an eyebrow if it was posted here in Purgatory.

That's exactly the point though - we wouldn't HAVE this disagreement with a moderator about what material is suitable where if we had some rules that we could all look at and say "yep, that breaks the rules for being in the wrong place"!!! I really don't get why you think that having such a record is so extreme or totalitarian (particularly since those rules aren't remotely harsh at all).

Say in a year or so, after this has all blown over, someone new comes along and posts a quiz in the P&A board. How are they to know that it's not allowed there? There is no record anywhere of what our 'policies' are that have supposedly evolved over time. Relying on members to be somehow pyschically aware of what's acceptable or isn't is not a remotely useful way to run a board IMO.

And I disagree with you that this community is "small". It has almost 100 active members. You try putting 100 people with only one thing in common (ie Celestia) into the same room in real life and see how well-ordered that naturally turns out to be without rules or guidelines. The group dynamics are the same whether they're on an online forum or in real life (though disagreements are more likely online since it's a more limited form of communication).

[t00fri]

That's exactly the point though - we wouldn't HAVE this disagreement with a moderator about what material is suitable where if we had some rules that we could all look at and say "yep, that breaks the rules for being in the wrong place"!!!

In the present quiz case, for example, your new rules would make NO difference whatsoever. This is another straightforward reason why we DON'T NEED them.

A main reason is that the quiz case also remains to some degree a borderline case WITH your rules activated! Another is that Selden has the last word and will not agree to rules that would EXCLUDE "science entertainment" in general, including eventually also quizzes with some educational background, for example.

Anyway, a number of people have clearly stated they don't want your rules. I dont want your rules. Hank doesn't want your rules, ElChristou doesn't want your rules, Runar doesn't want your rules. Selden does not look as if he wants your rules. Chris will not go for your rules, I bet.

Just stop it, please!

Chris first priority is the further development of Celestia. As you emphasized, the forum is clearly of secondary importance to him. He therefore has NO interest whatsoever to upset or even loose his longterm developers ...

Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

In the present quiz case, for example, your new rules would make NO difference whatsoever. This is another straightforward reason why we DON'T NEED them.

I don't think your reading comprehension ability is THAT bad, Fridger.
From the rules suggestion I posted on page 5...

Games: This is a board for serious discussion of scientific topics - not for games, quizzes, riddles or other "challenges". If you feel the need to post such things, do so either elsewhere or in Purgatory.

Bam. It's right there in plain english. Those rules explicitly state that games are not allowed on the P&A board. While it's not explicit about what is to be done in such cases, it is unambiguous that moderators can and should take some kind of action to remove them from there if they're posted on that board.

Anyway, a number of people have clearly stated they don't want your rules. I dont want your rules. Hank doesn't want your rules, ElChristou doesn't want your rules, Runar doesn't want your rules. Selden does not look as if he wants your rules. Chris will not go for your rules, I bet.

Just stop it, please!

I'll stop when people start making sense. Everyone seems to be claiming that they don't need any rules, while also claiming that they're happy with rules that already exist that aren't codified anywhere. Make up your minds - do you want any kind of rules or not? Because if you don't then all the unwritten rules we have should be discarded and people should be allowed to talk about politics and religion and anything else too. These are still all "rules", but nobody seems to complain about them.

You can't have structure without having rules. So far the current arbitrary system has led to nothing but argument and disagreement here, so it's clear to me that it is NOT sufficient anymore for running the boards. If you want to avoid this in future, you need codified rules that everyone agrees on to be put in place and enforced. If you want this sort of thing to continue then by all means carry on and we'll just keep arguing about what we think is or isn't allowed. It's that simple.

What boggles me is that the very people who complain most about Selden's decisions here are the ones who complain about putting any rules in place to guide his actions. It's utterly contradictory.

Meanwhile I have heard no rational complaint about any of those rules (apart from one valid comment by Dollan) - instead all I've heard is hyperbole and exaggeration about how people think those rules are oppressive or unneccesary or "too much" without any kind of specific criticism. Maybe we'll get somewhere if people comment on specific aspects instead of just skimming over them and giving a knee-jerk reaction to things that aren't there.

Chris first priority is the further development of Celestia. As you emphasized, the forum is clearly of secondary importance to him. He therefore has NO interest whatsoever to upset or even loose his longterm developers ...

No, it means that he has no interest in whatever squabbles go on here on this forum. If his "long term developers" want to stomp off because of some perceived slight on the forums then that's their decision, but again your tactics of holding the board and developer community to ransom by threatening to leave because you don't get your way is only going to generate resentment toward you. You are not irreplacable, despite what you may think - it'd be a shame if you left, but it wouldn't end Celestia's development.

Well by that token I'm quite sure he's not interested in listening to you complaining to him whenever you don't get your way on the boards either - but you seem to have no qualms about doing that whenever it happens.

[t00fri]

In the present quiz case, for example, your new rules would make NO difference whatsoever. This is another straightforward reason why we DON'T NEED them.

From the rules suggestion I posted on page 5...

Games: This is a board for serious discussion of scientific topics - not for games, quizzes, riddles or other "challenges". If you feel the need to post such things, do so either elsewhere or in Purgatory.

Bam. It's right there in plain english. Those rules explicitly state that games are not allowed on the P&A board. Therefore it is unambiguous that moderators can take action to remove them from there if they're posted on that board.

I don't think your reading comprehension ability is THAT bad, Fridger.

Come on I am not a beginner! Of course I have checked your game paragraph before posting. I was even about to quote it in my post. But then it became clear to me -- and it should get clear to you, too-- that this is entirely useless in the quiz context!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
The point of discussion with Selden is precisely that it is BORDERLINE whether Telepath's quiz is to be classified as a GAME! It may as well be classified as educational entertainment which Selden WANTS to be included into P&A. And don't forget that Selden has in NO way agreed to the formulation of your pamphlet...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

So just stop it. I got to do some coding for a change.

Anyway, a number of people have clearly stated they don't want your rules. I dont want your rules. Hank doesn't want your rules, ElChristou doesn't want your rules, Runar doesn't want your rules. Selden does not look as if he wants your rules. Chris will not go for your rules, I bet.

Just stop it, please!

I'll stop when people start making sense.

YOU are pig-stubborn

Chris first priority is the further development of Celestia. As you emphasized, the forum is clearly of secondary importance to him. He therefore has NO interest whatsoever to upset or even loose his longterm developers ...

Well by that token I'm quite sure he's not interested in listening to you complaining to him whenever you don't get your way on the boards either - but you seem to have no qualms about doing that whenever it happens.

When will you realize that you have NO idea what Chris is interested in? Again you are just wildly and /incorrectly/ speculating. Just believe me

Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

The point of discussion with Selden is precisely that it is BORDERLINE whether Telepath's quiz is to be classified as a GAME! It may as well be classified as educational entertainment which Selden WANTS to be included into P&A. And don't forget that Selden has in NO way agreed to the formulation of your pamphlet...

My rules proposal states that no quizzes of any sort should be allowed in P&A - that seems to be what most people want too. But if people DO want educational quizzes in there then obviously the final rules that do get formalised should state that educational quizzes ARE in fact allowed. It's really not rocket science here, it's called "debate" and "negotiation".

All I am saying is that we obviously need SOME rules to be codified, alongside the existing rules of no politics, no religion etc. The point is to figure out what we do and do not want to allow. I don't care a jot whether whether people adopt MY rules or not - you can adopt completely different ones for all I care. But I think it's quite obvious that SOME further codification is necessary - we just have to figure out what that is.

[t00fri]

My last word on this topic:

++++++++++++++++++++
Your rules simply are bad style among people who respect each other and tend to communicate as friends! That's what you just don't manage to see...
++++++++++++++++++++

This forum is fortunately dominated by such a friendly and educated attitude and we want it to stay like this. Even in very good marriages ( I doubt you are married...) there are occasional quarrels, ... but so what.

++++++++++++++++++
I respect Selden, because he is a most peaceful, reflected, intelligent, knowledgeable, helpful person with close to infinite patience and NOT because he happens to be the MOD!

I respect him because he does NOT loose his natural authority if one argues with him. And so on.

Same with Chris and all my friends here, with whom I have collaborated on numerous Celestia projects.
++++++++++++++++++

I dont want any rules about how I have to communicate with them. But I know this sort of relations are something you will never understand....Because of them I am here since 4 years!

Certainly NOT because of people like you.

Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

++++++++++++++++++++
Your rules simply are bad style among people who respect each other and tend to communicate as friends! That's what you just don't manage to see...
++++++++++++++++++++

We aren't all "friends" though. You have your 'friends' here perhaps, but Joe Random who comes in for the first time today doesn't know anybody here, neither do people who post a few times and then never come back. This community has about 100 people who can be considered "Active Members" who contribute regularly (they're the ones with more than 100 posts), and probably a hundred more who are more infrequent posters. All of those people are not "friends" - most probably don't know eachother at all or even cross paths.

We HAVE rules already. We don't allow politics or religious discussion for example. That's already something that is telling you "how to talk to your friends". But really, it's not about YOU, Fridger. This is what I meant when I said that rules were more for the newcomers than for us - because WE know from general experience what is permissible here, but the people who join the forums today do NOT know this. How are you to expect them to know what is allowable when there's nothing to tell them? Do you just want them to keep doing "wrong things" and posting things in the wrong places and getting yelled at by everyone else and the moderators all the time for them to learn? Or do you perhaps expect them to be psychic? Because that's a very poor way to educate people on etiquette.

[ElChristou]

Malenfant,

The rules system (writen somewhere -> I agree we do have implicit rules) is ok when you have so much activity that Mod cannot spend their time analysing each cases to see how to proceed; a rule is broken, someone is banned. More in those huge communities, users can/must report bad users to help Mods in their work...

Are we in such situation? do we have so much troubles with newbies? NO.

All those nines pages have been written for nothing, the quizz stuff is only a problem of Mod.

In general, after a time, people tend to eliminate themselves if they don't have their place here but unfortunatly some apparently tend to insist (or are masochist?). I suspect it's were Selden has failed by no taking Telepath's topic too seriously at Mod level...

Perso, a young inexperimented folk CAN break our implicit rules... but once only; the mod do his job and all is ok.

Now a guy like Telepath with 20 years of experience in industry is supposed to understand implicit rules and respect them... but here it's another story...

[t00fri]

How are you to expect them to know what is allowable when there's nothing to tell them? Do you just want them to keep doing "wrong things" and posting things in the wrong places and getting yelled at by everyone else and the moderators all the time for them to learn? Or do you perhaps expect them to be psychic? Because that's a very poor way to educate people on etiquette.

Oh no. I think you and I and others did manage quite well in a number of such cases:

Think of Hunter Parasite's first appearances in P&A or Wildmoon and quite a few other "wild boys"!!

Meanwhile Hunter is "even" writing a book and his thread
http://www.celestiaproject.net/forum/viewtopic ... 96&start=0
already has 1444 readers! Even I read his chapters and made constructive comments...

Or Wildmoon. He is an intelligent sweet boy ...perfectly adapted to the friendly style in this forum.

This all worked nicely WITHOUT applying any rigorous rules. I am actually quite proud how well we managed together...

No, no...our main problem is boredom, since development is obviosly slow at times. We need new impulses, good new posts from creative minds, more discussion on exciting space exploration results, mind-provocative posts, more initiative from users etc...

Bye Fridger

[BlindedByTheLight]

You may know the way round here. So may I. But someone new on here won't though, and will inevitably make some faux pas to piss people off (like post a quiz or something). And then we'll get this sort of argument again.

Wait a second... that gives me an idea how we can totally solve everything. We just DON'T get into this "sort of argument again"!!!

Unless, of course, you all think something productive HAS come from this. In which case, if this argument WAS so productive...why on Earth would we want to create "rules" that would stop it from happening again?

[rthorvald]

How are you to expect them to know what is allowable when there's nothing to tell them?

In the same way you and i found out.
I did not have any great difficulties in this regard...

Do you just want them to keep doing "wrong things" and posting things in the wrong places and getting yelled at by everyone else and the moderators all the time for them to learn? Or do you perhaps expect them to be psychic? Because that's a very poor way to educate people on etiquette.

Do you mean you picked up the etiquette faster than "Joe Average" does? I find this paragraph to be rather condescending, sorry.

- rthorvald

[Malenfant]

Do you mean you picked up the etiquette faster than "Joe Average" does? I find this paragraph to be rather condescending, sorry.

- rthorvald

I meant "joe average" in the sense of "random guy off the proverbial street who walks in here". It's not a statement about anyone's intelligence at all. Maybe it was the wrong 'generic name' to use (what would be better, Joe Bloggs?! I dunno), but it wasn't meant to be condescening.

[BlindedByTheLight]

Well, I was offended - not so much by the word "average" - but by the use of the name "Joe". Are you suggesting that people named Joe have a sub-standard intellectual ability?



(I'm sorry... I just cannot help it - I promise this will be my last post on the subject)

[hank]

We don??t argue about the quiz, we argue about a policy decicion that is a little too vague for our liking. The entire thing boils down to this: Selden wants a lighter touch on the policing than we do. That is perfectly fine, and it leaves each of us with the choice of participating or not. God knows Selden has got enough feedback on his decicion to make his own judgements, too, and part of the job is to evaluate that for future reference. What will come of that is up to him, and that is fine, too. You just don??t feel that is enough. And there i disagree: i say this straighens itself out over time. Policies evolve, and this thread is part of that process. In a community as small as this one, i say that is sufficient.

I generally agree with that. But in this specific case, I don't think moving the quiz to Purgatory or a new forum would have had any serious negative effect. Not moving it produced this long pointless discussion, and has caused one of the valuable contributers to P&A to decline further participation. That's his choice of course. But I don't think this outcome is "perfectly fine". It's his decision, but it's also my loss, because I valued his contributions to the P&A forum. Against this loss, what is the benefit of not moving the quiz? I don't see any.

- Hank

[rthorvald]

But I don't think this outcome is "perfectly fine". It's his decision, but it's also my loss, because I valued his contributions to the P&A forum. Against this loss, what is the benefit of not moving the quiz? I don't see any

I should have said "legitimate" instead of "fine".

- rthorvald

[t00fri]

I'm buggered if I'm going to watch him get away with blackmailing the community again though.

...
... and has caused one of the valuable contributers to P&A to decline further participation. That's his choice of course. But I don't think this outcome is "perfectly fine". It's his decision, but it's also my loss, because I valued his contributions to the P&A forum.
...
- Hank

I hope that apart from Malenfant, most of you have properly added "1 + 1" as to my "denial of service" in the P&A board...

When Selden's decision pushed me to stop posting in the P&A board, I was certainly NEVER considering to blackmail anyone!

Because ...

Those of you who (unlike Selden) still value my way and my expertise of discussing and explaining basic concepts of modern (astro) physics and cosmology, will be able to read my forthcoming articles elsewhere. Unfortunately such pedagogical efforts usually take quite some time...

CelestialMatters is growing.

Bye Fridger