And the effect of this Quizz was...

[t00fri]

Such rules will NEITHER improve the quality NOR the attractiveness of the Celestia Forum, which is now running without such "administrative overload" since > 4 years.

Yeah, and that kinda proves my point exactly. In that time we've had Spambots running amok, countless flamewars (mostly involving us two, admittedly ), irrelevant topics on P&A... this is exactly what happens when you allow complete freedom to do anything that posters like. In fact, you've often complained about how things have not been run to your liking over the past four years.

It was not all that bad on average. Our main problem these days is NOT flamewars but fighting against "boredom" . That presumably has to do with development being slow at times ...

Trust me, ...

No I don't sorry.

With all due respect, given your inexperience with how forums generally work, I think you should listen to people who do have experience with this matter.

I have no need to know. I know how THIS forum works since 4 years. That's good enough for my part.

Whoever want's me to leave the Celestia Forum INSTANTANEOUSLY, simply needs to get such kind of rules established here.

I for one have never been ashamed to seek advice among colleagues and other people that I respect, before making certain non-trivial decisions.

My main criticism as to today's Quizz issue, was that Selden did not do this, too, in a situation where he was insisting on his point against a respectable number of very reasonable users.

...
And Selden, being the sole moderator here, has no obligation to consult with anyone else at all when he makes a decision.

Something is not logical here: Of course I also don't have to consult anyone when making decisions. I do this voluntarily. Most experienced decision makes do such consultations VOLUNTARILY. I have never assumed anything else in case of Selden, of course. Would you know a good reason why Selden should not occasionally consult with you or me?
We both know a number of things he CERTAINLY does not know.

Again you argue completely in administrative terms.

Bye Fridger

[Rassilon]

(you want an example of how bad it can be, check out the scifi-meshes rules)

EDIT: I was being a bit harsh there, given that Fridger hasn't posted on other forums. But anyway, the point is that rules like this aren't unusual elsewhere...

Those rules pretty much apply here aswell...

[Malenfant]

I have no need to know. I know how THIS forum works since 4 years. That's good enough for my part.

I really expected a more objective response from you, Fridger. Given your lack of experience on other forums and that you've not seen how things work elsewhere in practice, you're really in no position to state so absolutely that rules will not improve the situation here. I've seen plenty of evidence to show that your assertion is simply incorrect.

Whoever want's me to leave the Celestia Forum INSTANTANEOUSLY, simply needs to get such kind of rules established here.

I'd rather have some solid rules and good moderation in place than the absence of them. If that happens and you decide to leave then so be it.

You really don't know what you want, Fridger. On one hand you complain loudly when someone goes against unwritten etiquette on the P&A board. And yet on the other you complain when someone proposes some very mild rules to prevent that from happening again (despite the fact that these rules wouldn't even affect anything you post at all). Make up your mind, man! Do you want people to continue to post irrelevant posts or do you want some kind of order to be put in place here? You can't have one without the other!

Again you argue completely in administrative terms.

What other terms are there in this case? This is a purely administrative matter. Think of a moderator or an admin as the guy running a company and that the users are his employees: Given that he's the boss then when he says something happens then that's how it's going to be. There's no need for consultation or a democratic vote on the matter - if the boss wants something done a certain way then that's how it will be done. Any employee can disagree with it all he likes, but ultimately if the boss doesn't like that employee's attitude then he can fire that employee (i.e. kick them off the board).

The only time a democracy or discussion is involved here is if a board has multiple moderators or admins - in which case matters are discussed between them in private (and not with the users) and a final decision is made based on that discussion. They have no obligation whatsoever to discuss their decisions or the reasons behind them to users. That's just how it is.

[t00fri]

Got to go to bed...

You really don't know what you want, Fridger.

You are really the first one telling me THIS

Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

You really don't know what you want, Fridger.

You are really the first one telling me THIS

Then prove me wrong.

If we examine your stance here we get that:

(a) you will leave the P&A board if the Quiz thread isn't removed.

and

(b) you will leave the P&A board if any explicit rules are put in place to prevent Quiz threads from being posted there in future. This despite the fact that these rules will not affect your posting habits in any way. I suspect the primary reason for this attitude is that you don't like the concept of having to defer to someone else's authority.

Frankly, you've been pretty obstructive and critical of any solutions that aren't exactly what you want here. So try to be useful and constructive - what longterm solution would you want put in place that is both fair to all members and satisfactory for you?

Either way, since you've stated that you'd leave the board in either case, I really don't see what we have to lose by creating rules of conduct.

[Malenfant]

Those rules pretty much apply here aswell...

If they do, then it's only because they're "unwritten rules". Without being explicit about things, we have no idea what is or isn't acceptable behaviour.

[t00fri]

Good morning

Malenfant, in order that we do not talk in "different languages", please read my mails more carefully. If it all is due to my English, I am very sorry. From the past I remember that you often had problems to read the content of my posts correctly.

Let me summarize in my words, what you have mis-interpreted below :

(a) you will leave the P&A board if the Quiz thread isn't removed.

(a) is correct, except that the decision now is final. Both that of Selden and mine.

You should have noticed throughout that this particular quiz post served merely as a "tag" in the foreground, the real argument with Selden was about the general inclusion of "science entertainment" into P&A!

Since Selden has the saying (unless Chris interferes e.g. following my letter to him, yesterday), new, more specific rules would not change the present P&A situation.

Instead of your new rules, I rather propose to solve such issues in a more general, more fruitful and notably more professional way in the future:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I shall propose Chris to establish a scientific advisory bord to the forum, of which e.g. I and other professional scientists and educators would be members. The nomination would be up to Chris. This board would provide advice to the moderator and to Chris in certain more difficult affairs where brainstorming appears necessary for the benefit of the Forum! This board could be called into action either by Selden or by Chris.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

While you might have all this experience with 15 forums, be assured that I have plenty of experience with this sort of well proven (academic) structure.

(b) As I clearly stated: If you manage the inclusion of such "overloaded" rules in the P&A board ONLY, this does not concern me anymore, since I have stopped posting there. It's just the announced consequence of Selden's decision, which he was aware of when he made it. "Snow of yesterday" as we say in German...

However, if such horrible, "para-military" rules REALLY would make it to become a general "framework" for the whole Celestia Forum", YES INDEED, I would be gone for ever.

It's not the first time that I have stated this clearly.

You don't believe seriously that -- as a senior Professor and renowned scientist-- I can tolerate that I might be kicked out /even in principle/, e.g. in case I start questioning in public our esteemed moderator's opinions about the importance of certain science issues!
Please realize, that my PhD and Diplome students are certainly allowed to question my views in public...

From the many discussions I had with Chris about such matters, I can assure you that this would certainly NOT be in his mind after our close collaboration about Celestia for 4 years. We know each other pretty well after this long time. In particular each one of us knows how the other "ticks" . And best of all, Chris fortunately has a LOT of common sense!

The fact that you keep repeating that "all men are equal" in this forum ( except the moderator) does not impress me the least. So far things also went perfectly fine with Selden and myself and I am confident that they will be fine in future, after the dust has settled.

So NO reasons to worry or to impose stricter rules about how I have to behave

Let me add that since yesterday, I keep getting quite a few PM's from engaged users of this Forum. You might be surprised about their contents, which is rather uniform.

After this forum is in a quite persistent state of crisis and notably boredom, think one moment who would gain anything, if your dangerous game that you keep playing would finally have the effect of driving me out of here! Certainly Celestia would not profit. . Chris is certainly aware of this fact.

So after giving me all this advice from your huge experience from 15 forums you have been a member of, I just want to give you one:

+++++++++++++++++
Please slow down and let things develop smoothly. Discussion among people (no matter who) is a necessary prerequisite for progress and innovation.
++++++++++++++++++

I shall not respond further to this rather unpleasant and also dangerous line of discussion in public.
However I have sent this public mail to Chris, for his information.

Bye Fridger

[ElChristou]

What Malenfant propose is very common on any boards over the net and probably it's the only way to keep things under control when you have 50k users between 15 and 25 years old... BUT I'm sure we can deal without such rules here because the community is not so big and because we are supposed to be educated persons.

I reapeat this (and futur problem like this one) is a Mod problem.

Selden, I'm sorry to say that, but you haven't well done your work in this case:

- Yourself you said you weren't agree in the way a user present a thread
(this normally would be enough to take action),
- Many people complain about it,
(here you receive confirmation something is wrong...)
- You should have PM the user asking him to rephrase his thread
- You should have closed (deleted) the problematic thread

All can note that I'm not talking about the content because effectively in this case the content of Telepath Quizz belong to P&A more than Purgatory.

IMO the only think we have to discuss is if our Mod is ok to try to keep a certain level. He and only him (well the admin is irrelevant in our case) has the power for such control.

I'm can imagine drastics or conflictual decisions are not always pleasing to take, so if Selden need help, perhaps another Mod could be a solution.

[selden]

ElChristou and others,

It seems that my moderation style may not be what you're used to or what you'd like. I regret that, but that's the way it is.

I refuse to be a censor except in extreme cases. People are free to make statements or post in styles that I disagree with. The times I'll take some kind of action, like locking a thread or moving it to a different forum, is when the subject matter is one that tends to be or has become disruptive or the topic clearly should be in a different forum. Personal attacks are, of course, also unacceptable. (Attack the subject material, not the person.)

Personally I think this particular case (a quiz) is borderline -- which, of course, is the kind of thing that will cause the most discussion.

So long as people are courteous in their disagreements, I don't mind. So far this thread has been that way. I do fear I'm seeing some trend toward more antagonistic wordings, though, which disturbs me. Please be sure to take the time to think over your responses and don't respond "in the heat of the moment."

It also probably wouldn't hurt for us all to review the Forum Guidelines at the top of the Users Forum. I'm going to be doing that myself.

[julesstoop]

In which case the whole debate seems to come down to our respective opinions on where this "borderline" lies.

I do tend to agree with Fridger on this particular matter who deems the P&A forum fit for threads about serious scientific questions and problemsolving, and possibly serious questions about P&A-education.

Personally I think that creating a seperate forum for astronomical quizzes and metaphysical riddles, a sort of para-scientific playground, is a possible solution. This would still allow for more simple yet seriously intended questions in P&A, but would filter out anything simply meant as recreational.

Purgatory would become what its name suggests.

[t00fri]

In which case the whole debate seems to come down to our respective opinions on where this "borderline" lies.

I do tend to agree with Fridger on this particular matter who deems the P&A forum fit for threads about serious scientific questions and problemsolving, and possibly serious questions about P&A-education.

Personally I think that creating a seperate forum for astronomical quizzes and metaphysical riddles, a sort of para-scientific playground, is a possible solution. This would still allow for more simple yet seriously intended questions in P&A, but would filter out anything simply meant as recreational.

Purgatory would become what its name suggests.

Yes that just would exactly correspond to my gusto.
Notably the idea of including serious aspects of P&A education I find a VERY interesting option!


@Selden:

I wonder how many more opinions by respected and very reasonable users it might still take before you consider changing your decision about this matter. You must be realizing meanwhile that your judgement about the quiz issue in particular and "science entertainment" in general is drifting more and more into isolation...

Of course I am very happy about your general style of "soft moderation" which I at least have considered so far as very successful.

Bye Fridger

[selden]

Fridger,

Just because an opinion is unpopular isn't a reason for changing it! Of course, you all have made other cogent arguments which I'll consider, but I doubt I'll change my mind.

Unfortunately, after rereading the Guidelines, I realized that they say nothing about making postings in an appropriate Forum. At the time they were written, other issues were more pressing.

I'll try to come up with some appropriate guideline for that.

[ElChristou]

ElChristou and others,

It seems that my moderation style may not be what you're used to or what you'd like. I regret that, but that's the way it is.

Perso I like your style, do doubt on this. As you state later, we are here in a borderline case which is a bit more tricky to solve...

I refuse to be a censor except in extreme cases.

Note that is that case it is not question of censoring anything, the content is not the problem.

People are free to make statements or post in styles that I disagree with.

True, but if this become the target of many complains, I suppose you cannot avoid the intervention...

The times I'll take some kind of action, like locking a thread or moving it to a different forum, is when the subject matter is one that tends to be or has become disruptive or the topic clearly should be in a different forum. Personal attacks are, of course, also unacceptable. (Attack the subject material, not the person.)

No problem on this of course, I will say it's the every day work of the Mod...

Personally I think this particular case (a quiz) is borderline -- which, of course, is the kind of thing that will cause the most discussion.

True, and the problem is that with no rules, you have to take some decision; to me the only correct way to mod in this case is by analizing the quality level of the form and the content and trying to keep it in a medium to high level; as soon as the lever is lowered to much, something must be done...

So long as people are courteous in their disagreements, I don't mind. So far this thread has been that way.

The problem is that if you don't mind and let go, a possible result is a "trend toward more antagonistic wordings" which no one really want...

Once again IMO, basing your mod on quality, you are sure too have it all good...

[t00fri]

Fridger,

Just because an opinion is unpopular isn't a reason for changing it!

Come on, that phrase really sounds too simplistic in this context. The arguments were put forward by reflected human beings, not by a heard of sheep that are only accounted for by number

Bye Fridger

[ElChristou]

Unfortunately, after rereading the Guidelines, I realized that they say nothing about making postings in an appropriate Forum. At the time they were written, other issues were more pressing.

I'll try to come up with some appropriate guideline for that.

Our problem is not about where to post... better guidelines won't solve this case...

[Malenfant]

I shall propose Chris to establish a scientific advisory bord to the forum, of which e.g. I and other professional scientists and educators would be members. The nomination would be up to Chris. This board would provide advice to the moderator and to Chris in certain more difficult affairs where brainstorming appears necessary for the benefit of the Forum! This board could be called into action either by Selden or by Chris.

Uh-huh. You know, there's a reason why no other forum has that sort of structure. For one, it's entirely inappropriate. Second, it's horrendously bureaucratic. Third, it's completely impractical.

But hey, you want to just ignore other people who have some kind of clue how forums are run because you think you know better, despite having no experience elsewhere whatsoever. Again, that's very scientific and objective of you. I wonder if you think you know better than your car mechanic when he tells you what's wrong with your vehicle too.

While you might have all this experience with 15 forums, be assured that I have plenty of experience with this sort of well proven (academic) structure.

Yes but your experience with this sort of "structure" is completely irrelevant here. Again, this isn't an academic board, it's a public forum. Installing an academic bureaucracy will do nothing except grind things to a halt, and it is completely, utterly unnecessary.

Get it into your head that this forum is in no way, shape or form a formal, professional, academic structure. Treating it like one will end in failure.

If other forums on the web can get by perfectly well with explicit rules of conduct and a hierarchy of respect/power that goes from User to Moderator to Admin, why don't you think this one can? And why do you complain that rules are 'para-military' or 'bureaucratic' and then turn around and demand that an advisory committee be set up to determine how things should be? THAT is bureaucratic and horrendously inefficient. And frankly, it's not going to work - you're basically just saying that you want a clique of 'special people' to be set up who are better than everyone else but who aren't moderators. That simply isn't how it works.

You don't believe seriously that -- as a senior Professor and renowned scientist-- I can tolerate that I might be kicked out /even in principle/, e.g. in case I start questioning in public our esteemed moderator's opinions about the importance of certain science issues!

Ah... so that's really what it's all about isn't it: your monumental ego. You simply can't take the idea of being told how to behave or being punished if you do something wrong.

Well that's how things work, Fridger. The same rules (be they explicit or unwritten) apply to you as everyone else here, that's the only way to keep things fair.

I seem to remember you threw a terrible strop on the Motherlode forums when I pointed out that your Antarctica threads were inappropriate to general discussion of Celestia and should have gone to Purgatory because they were completely off-topic. I don't really see why this quiz thing is any different from that - it's something that was posted in an inappropriate place. Yet you're demanding that the quiz should be moved, but in the past you demanded that your own inappropriate thread should not? All you want here is one rule for you and another rule for everyone else, and that is simply not how it works.

From the many discussions I had with Chris about such matters, I can assure you that this would certainly NOT be in his mind after our close collaboration about Celestia for 4 years. We know each other pretty well after this long time. In particular each one of us knows how the other "ticks" . And best of all, Chris fortunately has a LOT of common sense!

So you expect everyone else should have to suffer without any kind of order here just because you're "best pals" with the Admin? You'd rather things were done your way or no way at all? Because I sure as hell don't want a clique running this place instead of an objective moderator. All you have done here so far is publicly undermine and humiliate the Moderator of this forum anyway.

You can go do whatever you want on your Celestial Matters site - make a forum there and you'll have the freedom to set the rules however you like them. But here you're just a user like everyone else - if you can't accept that then you know where the door is. I'd rather you left in fact - I'm heartily sick of all your attempts to get everything done your way, and I'm sick of hearing you saying you're going to whine to Chris whenever it doesn't.

You'll notice that Chris hasn't contributed to this thread. Assuming that he hasn't left for Bolivia to do his mountain climbing or whatever, I suspect that the reason for this is that he really doesn't give a damn what happens here on the forums. He has no interest in doing anything administrative when it comes to how the forums are run - he's passed that responsibility off to Selden (while unfortunately not giving him any power to enforce anything here - Selden should be an Admin really, not a Mod).

So you hassling him all the time when things don't go your way (and I'm sure you're the only person who does when that happens) is only likely to exasperate him.

The fact that you keep repeating that "all men are equal" in this forum ( except the moderator) does not impress me the least.

I don't expect it to. But that's how things work on forums. If you can't accept that then by all means please leave.

Let me add that since yesterday, I keep getting quite a few PM's from engaged users of this Forum. You might be surprised about their contents, which is rather uniform.

So what? I get PMs from people supporting my side of the argument too. This isn't a popularity contest.

After this forum is in a quite persistent state of crisis and notably boredom, think one moment who would gain anything, if your dangerous game that you keep playing would finally have the effect of driving me out of here! Certainly Celestia would not profit. . Chris is certainly aware of this fact.

Again, you insist on holding everyone to ransom just because YOU don't like the way something goes (and frankly I've lost count of how many times you've threatened to leave and not carried that out). Personally it's got to the stage where I don't really care whether you go - as far as I can see all the interesting code development recently has been done by other people, and I don't think you're so vital to Celestia's continuing existence that your departure would harm its development. So we'd lose any further database additions - I can sure live with that.

That's probably my frustration at your self-centred attitude speaking there, but this is exactly what I meant earlier about how your attitude will only get people to lose sympathy with you. This isn't about quizzes anymore or Selden's decisions, it's about your mistaken perception that you're outside of any rules or codes of conduct because of your status outside the board. This is really about the fact that you don't know your place here.

Please slow down and let things develop smoothly. Discussion among people (no matter who) is a necessary prerequisite for progress and innovation.

Then why don't you practice what you preach? You have shown throughout this thread that you don't want any discussion about anything to occur - you've been nothing but obstructive, you've claimed to know better about how forums are run than people who have much more experience than you, and you've admitted that the real issue is that you don't want to be told what to do. All you want is for things to be done your way or you'll leave. As a matter of principle, I'm sure not going to sit back and let you decide everything when you have no right to do that whatsoever.

I may not agree with Selden's decision to keep that thread on the forum, but I do fully agree with his decision to lock it and the fact that he did should be enough for most people. It is up to him and him alone whether he reconsiders his decision, and I'm sure he's at least listening to all arguments from every side. But ultimately, it's his decision alone what happens in the end - if you can't live with that then tough luck.

But I 100% do NOT agree that you have any right whatsoever to undermine his authority and humiliate him in public by saying how you're going to go over his head and complain to Chris, who certainly has better things to do than listen to you whine about how things aren't going your way again here.

[t00fri]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I shall propose Chris to establish a scientific advisory bord to the forum, of which e.g. I and other professional scientists and educators would be members. The nomination would be up to Chris. This board would provide advice to the moderator and to Chris in certain more difficult affairs where brainstorming appears necessary for the benefit of the Forum! This board could be called into action either by Selden or by Chris.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

While you might have all this experience with 15 forums, be assured that I have plenty of experience with this sort of well proven (academic) structure.

Let me get this straight: you want to set up some kind of "professional academic board" - despite the fact that this forum is in no way, shape or form a formal, professional, academic structure - to "advise" the Moderator? That's got to be the most ridiculous suggestion I've ever heard from you.

...

Not so fast please! And please keep your language within bounds!
Otherwise I'll ask Selden to lock this thread. You are about to MASSIVELY violate the rules that you seem to like so much

Your statement implies that you read one ridiculous statement after the other from me, this one being the most ridiculous one. Not particularly friendly indeed...like all the rest of your post.

I think you are about to loose your temper again. Your agressive style of writing leads nowhere.

In view of this, I shall NOT comment about any of your further agressive replies below.

Tell me Fridger, if other forums on the web can get by perfectly well with explicit rules of conduct and a hierarchy of respect/power that goes from User to Moderator to Admin, why the hell don't you think this one can?

The answer to your provocative question is actually obvious:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Because Celestia development and correspondingly also its forum deal with possibly complex astromechanical, astrophysical, planetary, comological and other aspects of physics. In this respect the Celestia forum takes a rather unique place among other forums, obviously. Science and education is an integral part of what we are discussing here.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Selden is neither a scientist nor an educator.

NB:
In case you don't know: the majority of the Celestia authors/developers have a University degree in physics, math or related subjects, including Chris. Grant is a medical doctor (consultant).

Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

Dammit, I edited my posts as you replied to it.

Not so fast please! And please keep your language within bounds! Otherwise I'll ask Selden to lock this thread.

I'm surprised he hasn't locked it already, given how much his authority has been undermined.

Selden is neither a scientist nor an educator.

Maybe so, but he's also not an idiot. He's an intelligent, educated guy who is quite capable of figuring out what is and isn't appropriate here. And in this case you certainly don't need any special knowledge as a scientist or educator to lock a thread. And since he's locked the inappropriate thread on the P&A board so I really don't know why the hell you're still complaining. He's done his job.

I've made an offer to take over the moderation of this board, but if I were to do that there will be guidelines put in place to tell people what is and isn't acceptable. But you don't like being told what you can and can't do, and so that seems to rule me out of the running. And I really wouldn't want you to be moderating anything at all given your inexperience with forums, personal bias and your propensity towards "cliqueiness".

In case you don't know: the majority of the Celestia authors/developers have a University degree in physics, math or related subjects, including Chris. Grant is a medical doctor (consultant).

So now you're getting at Selden because of his education? You think he's unworthy to run a board because of that? How unbelievably rude of you. I don't know what his credential are, but I've seen no reason to question his ability because of that.

[t00fri]

...

In case you don't know: the majority of the Celestia authors/developers have a University degree in physics, math or related subjects, including Chris. Grant is a medical doctor (consultant).

So now you're getting at Selden because of his education? You think he's unworthy to run a board because of that? How unbelievably rude of you. I don't know what his credential are, but I've seen no reason to question his ability because of that.

Not at all. I know little about Selden's background. It's also none of my business. I have stated repeatedly that I appreciate Selden's style of "soft moderation" very much. That's what counts. It also matches perfectly to Chris' view of things.

I have given you NO reason whatsoever to subsume that my above remark was in any way hinted at Selden. To put forward such speculations without any evidence is a particularly unfair rhetorical technique that I am well aware of and that I find highly detesting!

My remark about the degrees was simply to illustrate that even the dev composition of Celestia reflects the complex scientific subject that is at stake.

An advisory board would naturally have to be called into action by the moderator or the Admin. So there is no moderator bypassing mechanism envisaged as you again maliciously subsumed. Both the mod and the admin are members of such a board. The function of this board would only serve for brainstorming purposes in case of difficult science or educational decisions. Unlike your overloaded rules, the activation of such an advisory board will be rare and hence far less of an administrative overkill.


Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

I have given you NO reason whatsoever to subsume that my above remark was in any way hinted at Selden. To put forward such speculations without any evidence is a particularly unfair rhetorical technique that I am well aware of and that I find highly detesting!

My remark about the degrees was simply to illustrate that even the dev composition of Celestia reflects the complex scientific subject that is at stake.

The implication was very strong that you didn't want Selden to moderate the P&A boards because you thought he lacked the education to do so. Maybe that's just how you phrase things, but that's the way it came across.

An advisory board would naturally have to be called into action by the moderator or the Admin. So there is no moderator bypassing mechanism envisaged as you again maliciously subsumed. Both the mod and the admin are members of such a board. The function of this board would only serve for brainstorming purposes in case of difficult science or educational decisions. Unlike your overloaded rules, the activation of such an advisory board will be rare and hence far less of an administrative overkill.

Again, off you go with the hyperbole - my rules are hardly "overloaded". They simply explicitly state everything that we've already agreed on in the past that is acceptable and not acceptable here. The problem you have with them is entirely down to the fact that you don't want to be told how to behave - but so long as you DO behave (which you're quite capable of doing. In fact, please point out to me what aspect of those rules you feel so "oppressed" by, because I'm buggered if I know what you're so upset about) then there won't be any problem.

Having such a commitee would only undermine the positions of authority of a moderator or admin. The whole point of those positions is because decisions need to be made quickly by individuals, not discussed ad nauseam among a council first. And you hardly need a commitee to decide that a quiz thread is inappropriate (which Selden already has). I'm quite sure in fact that such a commitee would never be called into being by a moderator anyway - I can't even imagine why anyone would need any discussions with them at all.

Selden is more than intelligent enough to make decisions on his own. Bureaucracies, councils or commitees are completely unnecessary here, in the same way and for the same reasons as they have also been completely unnecessary on specialised forums elsewhere on the web.