And the effect of this Quizz was...

[Malenfant]

Well sure. But I wouldn't want to see any kind of denigration when someone asks a very simple question like, "Why is space black". Rather, at the least, check their profile or ask them directly what their age is...

Okay, you get my point, even if I am using an overly ridiculous example. I'm getting a little punch-drunk. I thik I'm catching my kids' cold...gnar.

Oh lawks no, I wouldn't have anything against that kind of question!

[Malenfant]

Whoever has an interest that I continue posting in P&A, tell Selden to remove the quizz stuff from our interesting list of P&A topics. If nothing changes, don't count on me anymore in P&A. I'll now leave this P&A topic, since it remains hypothetical as to my participation until Selden changes his mind.

It's locked, Fridger. Nobody else can post anything to it. Even if Selden doesn't move it it will disappear off the front page pretty rapidly if people continue to post new relevant topics.

You presumably wouldn't have any problem with posting again on P&A when it gets shunted off the first page, considering the amount of other junk topics that have been posted on the P&A board in the past that are still lurking there on the back pages...

[t00fri]

Whoever has an interest that I continue posting in P&A, tell Selden to remove the quizz stuff from our interesting list of P&A topics. If nothing changes, don't count on me anymore in P&A. I'll now leave this P&A topic, since it remains hypothetical as to my participation until Selden changes his mind.

It's locked, Fridger. Nobody else can post anything to it. Even if Selden doesn't move it it will disappear off the front page pretty rapidly if people continue to post new relevant topics.

Consty,

++++++++++++++++++++++
people can state their opinion here or open another thread in P&A. It is important that we agree openly about some basic philosophy in P&A!
++++++++++++++++++++++

From Selden's answer to my above post,

Please remember that this site is not only for professional astronomers. It needs to be approachable by people with little or no previous knowledge of astronomy or physics. And it needs to help those people become comfortable with astronomical terminology and information so they can be proficent in using Celestia.

Although it may not have been presented in the best way, quizes like the one Telepath posted are one way to help with this.

it is quite apparent that he did not at all change his mind about admitting this kind of stuff also in the furture. So long as this matter is not cleared up openly, I am not available. Sorry.

Another option to think about might be to contemplate about additional moderators for some of the more "sensitive" boards, like P&A, and possibly: Celestia Dev and Celestia Educational...

This might take some of the burden from Selden and may provide more focussed moderation in form of a proven expert in the respective domain. Like a highly devoted teacher for the educational board, a scientist (you!?) for P&A and an active developer for a Dev board.


I am not sure (yet) whether this would be a great improvement, but we might think about it at least.

Bye Fridger

[ElChristou]

Guys, now I suppose all has been said about the background problem, what about proposing something to solve this point?

First IMHO this is a Mod problem so:

@ Selden:

Because nothing will come from the quizz thread, it sould be removed, Telepath shows he was able to construct a complete phrase, so he is free to redo a thread quoting Sagan if he really want to discuss certain points, this in a more serious way of course.

To avoid in the futur this kind of unpleasant situation, a Mod intervention via PM to newcomers who begun this kind of thread would be (again IMO) a good way to keep the level of this forum...

I understand you can find this solution not really to your taste... but... well, you are the Mod...

[Malenfant]

++++++++++++++++++++++
people can state their opinion here or open another thread in P&A. It is important that we agree openly about some basic philosophy in P&A!
++++++++++++++++++++++

What we need really are some fixed 'rules of conduct' for each board, defining what the acceptable topics/behaviour are and what the unacceptables one are. Only then we can actually get some consistent moderating.

So long as this matter is not cleared up openly, I am not available. Sorry.

That's fine, and I think everyone's quite clear on that now . But you do need to realise that your attitude isn't particularly reasonable, rational, or constructive. As it is, I suspect more people are frustrated that you're just walking out of the P&A board than are frustrated at the reason for why you're leaving it. Throwing a foot-stomping tantrum isn't going to get you much sympathy, and indeed it hasn't in the past either when you've done this.

Again, I do sympathise completely with the issue here, but I don't agree with your attempt to force a solution to the problem, which is to make a big deal out of you leaving the P&A board and basically use blackmail to try to force a decision that will allow you to return (I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason thaht Selden's keeping it there is to show that he's not willing to be pushed around in this manner). Sooner or later, that strategy is bound to backfire because people will get fed up with that attitude - and ultimately it will end with people who would have ordinarly agreed with you being glad that you left, and I'm quite sure you don't want that to happen. Hell, I don't want that to happen either.

At this stage, in the grand scheme of things this really isn't a matter that is so serious that you have to draw a line in the sand and say "right! that's it! no more or I'm leaving!". I take the educational and instructive side of things here just as seriously as you do and I certainly have no intention of leaving the P&A board over this because it's obvious to me that this reaction would cause more harm to that cause than good. I'm really not sure why you can't see that.

Another option to think about might be to contemplate about additional moderators for some of the more "sensitive" boards, like P&A, and possibly: Celestia Dev and Celestia Educational...

That I wholeheartedly agree with, but as I said earlier to do that we need to lay down some rules of conduct for each board for the mods to enforce.

I'd gladly take the job of moderating the P&A board myself.

[t00fri]

I take the educational and instructive side of things here just as seriously as you do and I certainly have no intention of leaving the P&A board over this because it's obvious to me that this reaction would cause more harm to that cause than good. I'm really not sure why you can't see that.

OK, let me turn things around: I WANT this quizz eliminated and some agreement that we shall not have this sort of stuff there in the future.

Go and do it your way! Tell Selden you won't leave P&A , but urge him to move that stuff. I don't care HOW this is achieved. Only the result matters.

Bye Fridger

[t00fri]

Again, I do sympathise completely with the issue here, but I don't agree with your attempt to force a solution to the problem, which is to make a big deal out of you leaving the P&A board and basically use blackmail to try to force a decision that will allow you to return (I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason thaht Selden's keeping it there is to show that he's not willing to be pushed around in this manner).

That is surely NOT blackmail. Being the moderator, Selden is deciding here. I give him 2 simple options as concerns myself.

Either of them is fine with me. Please take note! No emotions involved here...

I am not stepping out of Celestia. In one case I'll spend more of my time on development and CelelstialMatters and let Selden take care of P&A since I cannot identify myself with his decision. In the other case, things continue as ever.

You should know me well enough to know that I rarely do things or try to push things without a very good reason. I might well explain the reason behind what you continue to call "blackmailing" in a PM these days.

There is nothing whatsoever bad about this. Whichever he choses, he will have to justify his decision towards the users. If he continues to ignore my posts here...also fine.

Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

I am not stepping out of Celestia. In one case I'll spend more of my time on development and let Selden take care of P&A since I cannot identify myself with his decision. In the other case, things continue as ever.

That much is clear. So go do that and don't spend more time here!

There is nothing whatsoever bad about this. Whichever he choses, he will have to justify his decision towards the users. If he continues to ignore my posts here...also fine

That's the thing though. He HAS justified his decision. You just don't agree with his justification. (and you're lucky here - on several other boards that I've been on, if you argue publicly with a moderator then you'll be thrown off the board - no questions asked, no chance for appeal). You respond to that by saying "fine, I'm leaving the P&A board til I get things done the way I want", which is a method of persuasion that only works if your participation is so critical to the board that it'd collapse without you. Problem is, that isn't the case here. And as I said, in time that thread will disappear off the front page and it will be as if it was never there in the first place - but apparently even that isn't enough for you to decide to return to active participation there.

My response to his justification is to just disagree and remain on the board to maintain a high standard and be able to respond to and post interesting threads.

It should be blindingly obvious that leaving a board because of a perceived problem is not going to make that problem go away. Sure, it makes your life easier, and if that's your primary motivation then go ahead and leave. But if you're serious about maintaining specific standards then going away won't help that cause at all. And the fact is, you can't fight for a cause if you leave at the first sign of trouble or disagreement.

[Dollan]

Speaking as a moderator and owner of several lists, shouldn't the final word be up to the moderator? Not everyone may agree with it, but then I would be shocked if everyone DID. But regardless, the moderator is the moderator, and in the end its his decision (over ruled only by the Admin, of course).

If that's not going to satisy people, then get someone to have mod privledges solely for banning or removing spam, and carrying out the will of the most vocal of the board. Because THAT is what I'm getting from this entire argument.

...John...

[Malenfant]

Speaking as a moderator and owner of several lists, shouldn't the final word be up to the moderator? Not everyone may agree with it, but then I would be shocked if everyone DID. But regardless, the moderator is the moderator, and in the end its his decision (over ruled only by the Admin, of course).

Some discussion with moderators is warranted I think - moderators aren't perfect after all (but usually, such discussion is carried out via PM). But outright arguing with Selden isn't really justified. The world isn't ending just because he left the thread there - as it is, he locked the darn thing and that should be sufficient for most people. He's taken action against it and that's that.

[Dollan]

Some discussion with moderators is warranted I think - moderators aren't perfect after all (but usually, such discussion is carried out via PM). But outright arguing with Selden isn't really justified. The world isn't ending just because he left the thread there - as it is, he locked the darn thing and that should be sufficient for most people. He's taken action against it and that's that.

Ideally, discussion with a moderator about his decision should be encouraged if even a single member disagrees (and yes, it SHOULD be done via PM's, otherwise you're doing nothing but undermining that Mod, regardless of your intentions). And I agree, the situation is ideally resolved, and has been for a while now

And it should be noted that if Selden is located in the US (I don't know if he is or not, off-hand), then he's likely not ignoring the issue. It is the first major three-day holiday of the summer over here, and odds are he's out with the family enjoying the sun (which I would be doing if I wasn't stuck in an office covering for someone all day!).

...John...

[Dollan]

You know, I just realized that,as someone who ended up deleting his posts in the other thread *after* editing the heck out of them first, all because I didn't want to "get into it", I sure have been blabbing on and on about this....

Sorry for going on and on....

...John...

[t00fri]

That's the thing though. He HAS justified his decision. You just don't agree with his justification. (and you're lucky here - on several other boards that I've been on, if you argue publicly with a moderator then you'll be thrown off the board - no questions asked, no chance for appeal).

Yeah, I was waiting for this to come up soon or later. .

"Fridger chased from the Celestia Forum in dishonesty by "his majesty" for having responded to the moderator more than once ..."

Wow .

You respond to that by saying "fine, I'm leaving the P&A board til I get things done the way I want", which is a method of persuasion that only works if your participation is so critical to the board that it'd collapse without you. Problem is, that isn't the case here.

Come on, I am not playing games with my person! My way of arguing is absolutely standard in professional committees I am part of most frequently. It's a perfectly straight way of argumentation.

And as I said, in time that thread will disappear off the front page and it will be as if it was never there in the first place - but apparently even that isn't enough for you to decide to return to active participation there.

Of course, I want this stuff to be out of P&A also in the future.


OK, I see also the two of us get stuck somehow. So let's wait and see whether Selden nevertheless has some "second thoughts" about this matter. If not, I am sorry, but I can't help it. I may just discuss the matter with Chris which is probaly the best anyway.


Bye Fridger

[Rassilon]

I know mr debt_consolidation newest bot needs pruning...

[t00fri]

Speaking as a moderator and owner of several lists, shouldn't the final word be up to the moderator? Not everyone may agree with it, but then I would be shocked if everyone DID. But regardless, the moderator is the moderator, and in the end its his decision (over ruled only by the Admin, of course).

...John...

John,

I completely agree with you. Selden has the final word. I want a CLEARCUT statement by our moderator after so much discussion here. I have explained to Consty that I will accept it. It is perfectly normal that I will react differently depending on his decision. That's life.

Bye Fridger

[t00fri]

I know mr debt_consolidation newest bot needs pruning...

Occupation: sex, box, mens
Interests: sex, box, mens


hi hi...

[ElChristou]

Guys, if some rules must be define it's first the work of the Admin and Mod; then I suppose it could be convinient to invite the oldest user to participate...

Perso, like for the dev I would prefer to see a process like this not via PM but via a normal thread because transparency is always good

Again, all this depend before anything on Chris point of view... perhaps it's time to point him this thread... someone already does?

[selden]

Fridger,

I thought I gave a clearcut response above.

While I don't entirely agree with the format of the specific quiz, I also don't think Purgatory is the appropriate place for such things.

Such postings are one way to encourage "General physics and astronomy discussions not directly related to Celestia" which is the subtitle that Chris gave to the Physics and Astronomy Forum.

[t00fri]

Fridger,

I thought I gave a clearcut response above.

While I don't entirely agree with the format of the specific quiz, I also don't think Purgatory is the appropriate place for such things.

Such postings are one way to encourage "General physics and astronomy discussions not directly related to Celestia" which is the subtitle that Chris gave to the Physics and Astronomy Forum.

Thanks Selden. I was hoping you had second thoughts about this. Obviously, there is no problem whatsoever to rename Purgatory or to do something else to get that quizz stuff out of P&A.

I accept that decision. Hence the implications as to myself will also not change (compared to what I announced initially):

++++++++++++++++++++
I am not stepping out of Celestia. I'll spend more of my time on development and CelelstialMatters and and will not post anymore in "Physics and Astronomy", since I cannot identify myself with your decision. I hope you and the users will understand this.
++++++++++++++++++++

I suppose you have informed Chris about your decision. So I don't have to bother. ...Probably, I'll do anyway

Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

Yeah, I was waiting for this to come up soon or later. .

"Fridger chased from the Celestia Forum in dishonesty by "his majesty" for having responded to the moderator more than once ..."

No, it'd be a case of "User booted off a board because he argued with a moderator in public". This is how things work on many other boards.

Maybe it's just the way you're phrasing things, but you need to remember your place here. Your professional standing should not and does not have any relevance on any online forum - you're a user here just like everyone else (albeit one who has contributed a lot). But while you're a valued member of the community you have no more rights or privileges than anybody else. We're all equal here - apart from Selden who is a Moderator and Chris who is the Admin here. They're the ones in power, not you or me or anyone else.

Come on, I am not playing games with my person! My way of arguing is absolutely standard in professional committees I am part of most frequently. It's a perfectly straight way of argumentation.

Look around you Fridger, does this LOOK like a "professional committee"?! It's nothing like that - it's an online discussion board, for crying out loud. And while the "If this doesn't get done then I'm leaving the project" argument might be effective in a small, specialised committee, it most certainly is not a 'straight way of argumentation' here.

And as it is, you admit that you haven't even been contributing much to P&A recently anyway. So surely you can see that your departure from that board isn't really a huge loss to be making such a big deal out of.

Of course, I want this stuff to be out of P&A also in the future.

So do I! But I have a different way of trying to make that happen.

OK, I see also the two of us get stuck somehow. So let's wait and see whether Selden nevertheless has some "second thoughts" about this matter. If not, I am sorry, but I can't help it. I may just discuss the matter with Chris which is probaly the best anyway.

Fridger, what makes you think that Chris even cares about this? That's why he made Selden a Moderator, because Chris didn't want to be hassled by Forum-related arguments.