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bdm
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Post #21by bdm » 23.10.2005, 01:00

Malenfant wrote:Bit of an off-the-wall thought here, but why not just use original names instead of derivative ones? Do you really think we're going to be naming every cytherean world we find based on some variation of the theme of "Venus"?

It's not an off-the-wall thought at all, I think this is a sound idea.

I find it helpful to have naming themes. I consider it a part of the fun to have a clear theme for the names and then people can try to guess the theme.

With planet names, one could be serious or whimsical. In one of my fictional systems, I've got a planet that looks a bit like Uranus. Its name is "El Blando" because it is, well, bland.

One could also dispense with names entirely. The time will come when we will know many thousands of planets. It may be more convenient to refer to them by catalogue numbers rather than giving them all names. There are millions of stars, but we've only got proper names for a few hundred of them. It's reasonable to guess that the planets of many unnamed stars will also not get the distinction of proper names.

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Post #22by Tanketai » 23.10.2005, 03:26

bdm wrote:The time will come when we will know many thousands of planets.


When this day comes, we would have many more thousands of people spread across the galaxy, with different languages and cultural references. Even then, it would be easier to use computers and record names instead of numbers.

A: Hey, let's go skiing in P3X-984!
B: P3X-984? But that wasn't a tropical world?
A: No, that's P3X-994.
B: Oh, I see.
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Post #23by Michael Kilderry » 23.10.2005, 06:07

Malenfant wrote:
Tanketai wrote:
Michael Kilderry wrote:Aphrodite is a large Cytherean world with a turbulent atmosphere and oceans of liquified lead.

Whoa, that's a lot of lead. Is all of that lead available in a system as Sirius'?

Really doubtful - lead is a rare element in the universe. You'd need some really bizarre and horrendously unlikely (and probably impossible) chemistry to get enough of it to cover a planet in a liquid ocean.

Sounds like Michael's taken the phrase "hot enough to melt lead" (used a lot for Venus) and taken it a bit literally :).

With all the different planets there could be in the universe, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a planet with oceans of lead. Unexpected things are discovered a lot in space, and if Aphrodite was a real planet, it's lead oceans would be one of them.

bdm wrote:I find it helpful to have naming themes. I consider it a part of the fun to have a clear theme for the names and then people can try to guess the theme.


Since Sirius is sometimes referred to as the dog star, I was thinking it might be a funny idea to name all of the planets after cats, actually, I'm planning on naming the third planet from Sirius after my pet cat. :wink:
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Post #24by bdm » 23.10.2005, 08:01

Tanketai wrote:
bdm wrote:The time will come when we will know many thousands of planets.

When this day comes, we would have many more thousands of people spread across the galaxy, with different languages and cultural references. Even then, it would be easier to use computers and record names instead of numbers.

A: Hey, let's go skiing in P3X-984!
B: P3X-984? But that wasn't a tropical world?
A: No, that's P3X-994.
B: Oh, I see.

I expect that planets in inhabited systems would get proper names. Catalogue numbers would suffice for the planets of uninhabited systems. After all, it will be a long time (probably forever) before inhabited systems with known planets are in the majority.

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Post #25by ajtribick » 23.10.2005, 09:03

I guess that if we do become an interstellar civilisation, names of planets would be purely local - e.g. Fomalhaut IV might be known as Aslan (hmmm... famous cats, interesting idea) within the Fomalhaut system, but elsewhere only have some kind of catalogue number.

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Post #26by Malenfant » 23.10.2005, 15:53

Michael Kilderry wrote:With all the different planets there could be in the universe, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a planet with oceans of lead. Unexpected things are discovered a lot in space, and if Aphrodite was a real planet, it's lead oceans would be one of them.


Ah, the old "the universe is so big, anything must be in it" excuse :roll:

The problem is that the "unexpected things" still conform to the basic laws of physics and chemistry - a planet with oceans of lead doesn't. What natural geological process could somehow extract elemental lead from crustal rocks, and then concentrate it all in oceans? Our water oceans formed from rain - what process could evaporate all that lead (already concentrated somehow) to turn it into clouds that blanket the planet and then cause it to rain out of the sky? What would cause that lead to be present in the protoplanetary nebula to start with (and bear in mind, lead is not an element that is found in its native form - i.e. on its own- it's always as a compound)?

If you want to say that it's an entirely fictional scenario with no basis in reality and that isn't really possible then that's fine. But if you're really claiming that a planet with oceans of lead could be realistic, then that's entirely wishful thinking. And as I've said elsewhere, the universe doesn't work by rules of wishful thinking. It's got nothing to do with being closeminded or anything, it's just that any good speculation recognises where its limitations are.

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Post #27by Michael Kilderry » 24.10.2005, 12:03

Malenfant wrote:What natural geological process could somehow extract elemental lead from crustal rocks, and then concentrate it all in oceans?


Possibly a natural geological process that hasn't been thought of or discovered yet. :wink:

But I do agree with the fact that if lead worlds are out there, they would be very rare and unusual (not to mention bizarre). And they most likely wouldn't have formed like an average planet, but in such a vast universe, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility entirely.

- - - - - - - - - -

Anyway, I've rethought the names of the planets and moons around Sirius A. I think they sound original, and they follow some sort of a theme:

- Hermius is now known as Renni.

- Aphrodite is now known as Elddim.

- Elddim's two moons are called Tsrif and Dnoces.

- The third planet from Sirius A is called Retuo.

- Retuo's moon is known as Anulia.

Do these names sound ok? Can anyone guess the theme?
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Post #28by Tanketai » 24.10.2005, 18:38

Good one, nice thinking. Those names sound really good, so good I thought they were simply imaginated; took me a couple minutes to realize the pattern.

Renni = inneR
Elddim = middlE
Tsrif = firsT
Dnoces = seconD
Retuo = outeR

The last one I suppose it's your cat, as ailuna makes as much sense as anulia.

PS: ailuna = A.I. Luna, possibly a gigantic computer. 8)
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Post #29by Michael Kilderry » 25.10.2005, 09:43

Actually my cat's name is Anastasia. The planet Retuo was going to be named that before I changed it.

The name Anulia is a bit trickier to decode. Just switch the Anul part around to get Luna, and then just add the -ia (-ia meaning land, I think) suffix to get Luna-ia, or Moonland. :wink:.
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Post #30by Malenfant » 25.10.2005, 16:58

Michael Kilderry wrote:Possibly a natural geological process that hasn't been thought of or discovered yet. :wink:

But I do agree with the fact that if lead worlds are out there, they would be very rare and unusual (not to mention bizarre). And they most likely wouldn't have formed like an average planet, but in such a vast universe, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility entirely.


And so we go back to the old "the universe is so big, anything must be in it" excuse again...

It just doesn't work like that. Such a planet - if it existed - would have had to have formed in such extremely unusual circumstances that you certainly wouldn't find it anywhere in our stellar neighbourhood that's for sure. It's even too wacky for extremes like a pulsar planet. There isn't any possible chemical process that could naturally allow such a huge concentration of elemental lead on the surface of a world to exist.

Earth itself has a concentration of 13 parts per BILLION of lead in its crust, and you want a world whose surface covered in OCEANS of it? Also, lead is a chalcophile element - while it doesn't have as strong a tendency to sink to the core of the planet as iron or nickel, it is certainly more likely to be found there than in the crust. So somehow you have to contrive a realistic reason for preventing the lead from settling toward the core when the planet forms and then for keeping it in liquid form on the surface. And there is no geological process that can do that - it's not that we don't know of such a process, it just flat out isn't possible.

"Anything goes" simply does not work in our universe. It's a fallacy to believe that just because the universe is large, anything is possible in it. That is just not true. You can get an enormous range of options by sticking within the laws of physics and chemistry, but some things are just beyond those, and therefore beyond the realms of possibility.

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Post #31by selden » 25.10.2005, 17:14

So maybe it's on another brane?

;-)

[edit]
Or maybe they're really pools of mercury?
[/edit]
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Post #32by Malenfant » 25.10.2005, 17:25

selden wrote:So maybe it's on another brane?

;-)

That just happens to have a star called Sirius on it that is 11 lightyears from a star called Sol with a planet called Earth around it and be otherwise identical to ours, yeah right ;).

Or maybe they're really pools of mercury?


That would be just as bad, it's only two elements back from lead and still a chalcophile element.

There's a nice table showing these here:
http://ruby.colorado.edu/~smyth/G30103.html

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Post #33by bdm » 26.10.2005, 00:52

Lead oceans are not really possible for the reasons Malenfant pointed out. I'll expand on his points to illustrate them.

Oceans tend to form from light substances. In essence, one can consider the ocean to be floating on the rocky crust below. This is how oceans work on Earth - water has a density about equal to 1 g/cm3, and rock has a density about three times as great. Therefore the ocean is stable on the crustal rock.

The same goes with a hypothetical methane ocean on an ice world. Liquid methane has a density about half that of ice, so that configuration is stable.

A lead ocean is not stable. On what would the lead float? Lead is a dense metal - for the ocean to be stable, it would have to "float" on a denser substance. Unless the planet was made of solid gold or iridium, I don't see how the ocean can remain in place. I know of no plausible mechanism that would make a natural planet out of such dense substances.

Ocean basins are not watertight bowls, destined to remain watertight for all eternity. They can get splits in them which can let the oceans drain out. There are splits in Earth's oceans, at the midocean ridges. Because the water is lighter, it cannot escape. Now imagine a heavy lead ocean on a lighter rocky crust. If there's a split in the crust, the lead will force its way out the bottom due to its density. The rock under the oceans would be soft, so the lead can force its way out. Even if there was no split, the density differential between lead and rock will eventually make one, rather like an upside-down lava lamp.

So it's not possible to have an ocean of lead.

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Post #34by Malenfant » 26.10.2005, 08:10

bdm wrote:The same goes with a hypothetical methane ocean on an ice world. Liquid methane has a density about half that of ice, so that configuration is stable.

I don't think that example would actually be possible though - the methane would have to be liquid due to the high pressure rather than low temperature (or the water would freeze). From what I recall of the phase diagrams of water and methane I don't think it's possible for their liquid to ovrelap (I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound likely).

Also, we don't have oceans on the surface solely because it's less dense that rock (though I guess that's a factor) - we have them there largely because it's a volatile material that tends to be outgassed from a planet's interior, and because it can be deposited easily from outside via comets and icy objects. And it can be rained out in large amounts from the atmosphere onto the surface.

However, if we're talking about lead then what you talk about regarding the density would come into play. It wouldn't be a stable situation, the lead would want to seep down into the crust (if the crust was made of any reasonable natural material - ie silicates) and towards the core.

Ocean basins are not watertight bowls, destined to remain watertight for all eternity. They can get splits in them which can let the oceans drain out. There are splits in Earth's oceans, at the midocean ridges. Because the water is lighter, it cannot escape.

Um, no. You can't 'drain' oceans like that, it doesn't work that way. First there's nowhere for them to drain to. Second, any cracks that open in the seafloor usually have stuff coming up them (eg lava, like the Mid ocean ridges). But most importantly, seawater does actually percolate through cracks in the seafloor anyway - that's how hydrothermal vents form. The water seeps into the rock via cracks (it can get pretty far down too), gets heated up by magma and then gets sent back up laden with minerals from its journey through the hot rock - that makes the 'black smokers' you see at underwater vents. But it's not possible to "drain" the oceans by those cracks, unless for some reason the water isn't sent back up (and a combination of pressure from below and low density of the steam will send it back up anyway).


Now imagine a heavy lead ocean on a lighter rocky crust. If there's a split in the crust, the lead will force its way out the bottom due to its density. The rock under the oceans would be soft, so the lead can force its way out. Even if there was no split, the density differential between lead and rock will eventually make one, rather like an upside-down lava lamp.


It's true that there will eventually be a density overturn like you describe. Dense stuff does not like to be on top of less dense stuff - the less dense stuff is buoyant.

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Post #35by bdm » 27.10.2005, 00:26

In my example, I simplified the physics to highlight the particular point I was making. The fundamental point is that silicate rocks would be buoyant in liquid lead and hence a lead ocean cannot be stable.

To illustrate the buoyancy issue, consider the ocean floor. On Earth, the rocks on the ocean floor sit there because they are denser than the water of the oceans. Now consider a lead oceans with silicate rocks. Those rocks are going to float on the lead ocean. Any groundquake that loosens the rock of the ocean floor will send more rock floating to the surface. Eventually the ocean surface will disappear under all the floating rocks.

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Post #36by Michael Kilderry » 27.10.2005, 09:48

Since when did I say that planet Elddim had an interior of silicate rock? Elddim could very well have an interior of something dense like gold or iridium.

This would make Aphrodite a very dense world, which would also explain why it would have two moons while being close to it's sun. If a planet is dense, there's a chance for more moons due to the increased hill sphere.

Malenfant wrote:That just happens to have a star called Sirius on it that is 11 lightyears from a star called Sol with a planet called Earth around it and be otherwise identical to ours, yeah right.

Could be possible. If the universe is extremely vast, we could end up with things repeating themselves, there was another post about this somewhere...

Malenfant wrote:And so we go back to the old "the universe is so big, anything must be in it" excuse again...


Well, that 'anything' could be planet Earth, 'anything' could also be the Milky Way galaxy, 'anything' could be a solar system, so anything MUST be in the universe. :P

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, here are the first two planets as I announced before, with their new names labelled:

Image

Image
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Post #37by Malenfant » 27.10.2005, 16:25

Michael Kilderry wrote:Since when did I say that planet Elddim had an interior of silicate rock? Elddim could very well have an interior of something dense like gold or iridium.

You realise that it is quite impossible for that to be the case.

Look, if you want to make a world that is total fantasy that doesn't conform to any laws of physics, chemistry, geology or planetary evolution then just come out and say "this planet is not realistic". Your insistence that it is realistic or even possible when it very clearly isn't is working against you and not doing much for the credibility of your systems - what's worse is that it may give people the false impression that something unrealistic is possible.


This would make Aphrodite a very dense world, which would also explain why it would have two moons while being close to it's sun. If a planet is dense, there's a chance for more moons due to the increased hill sphere.

The hill sphere just tells you at what distance a planet can affect the orbits of objects - it has nothing to do with actually keeping moons around it though. Solar tidal forces are what prevent moons from orbiting worlds close to their stars.


Well, that 'anything' could be planet Earth, 'anything' could also be the Milky Way galaxy, 'anything' could be a solar system, so anything MUST be in the universe. :P


Nonsense. The universe is filled with a huge variety of objects, but they all still conform to the basic laws of physics and chemistry. Your planet however very clearly does not do that. As such, you should retract any claims of realism for it and any claims that it is possible and make it clear that it is a pure fantasy world that cannot exist in reality.

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Post #38by Michael Kilderry » 28.10.2005, 06:08

Malenfant wrote:
Michael Kilderry wrote:Since when did I say that planet Elddim had an interior of silicate rock? Elddim could very well have an interior of something dense like gold or iridium.

You realise that it is quite impossible for that to be the case.

Look, if you want to make a world that is total fantasy that doesn't conform to any laws of physics, chemistry, geology or planetary evolution then just come out and say "this planet is not realistic". Your insistence that it is realistic or even possible when it very clearly isn't is working against you and not doing much for the credibility of your systems - what's worse is that it may give people the false impression that something unrealistic is possible.



But what I'm trying to do is keep the realism but be able to keep the liquid-lead like ocean on Elddim as well, what I'm saying is that I want my worlds to be somewhat realistic for this particular addon, but it seems quite obvious that they will have to be tweaked a bit first. I'm trying to make my Sirius solar system realistic.

What if I change some things around a bit, so the oceans On Elddim aren't pure liquid lead, but some kind of a liquid mixture involving lead, or something entirely different? After all, Earth's seas aren't made entirely of pure water, are they?

And if I do decide that this solar system will have to be a bit unrealistic to get it the way I want, then that's the way it has to be. After all, why did I call it a 'fictional' solar system in the first place. :wink: :wink: :wink:
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Post #39by bdm » 28.10.2005, 06:18

I suppose if you can come up with a plausible explanation for how such a liquid-lead ocean came to be formed, then there's no harm in including it. Be sure to explain its fantastic nature somewhere in the accompanying files for the addon. We wouldn't want people who were not privy to this thread to think that liquid-lead oceans are common.

Such an ocean would likely be an artificial one. Sirius is unlikely to have lines in its spectrum that suggests its planets have an unusually high concentration of heavy elements. Such an ocean cannot therefore form naturally. Perhaps the planet and its ocean are the relics of some giant device like a power plant built by an advanced extraterrestrial civilisation.

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Post #40by Malenfant » 28.10.2005, 07:01

Michael Kilderry wrote:But what I'm trying to do is keep the realism but be able to keep the liquid-lead like ocean on Elddim as well, what I'm saying is that I want my worlds to be somewhat realistic for this particular addon, but it seems quite obvious that they will have to be tweaked a bit first. I'm trying to make my Sirius solar system realistic.

Well if that's the case then you should have got the message by now that liquid lead oceans aren't realistic and should have stopped trying to find ways to keep them ;).

What if I change some things around a bit, so the oceans On Elddim aren't pure liquid lead, but some kind of a liquid mixture involving lead, or something entirely different? After all, Earth's seas aren't made entirely of pure water, are they?

Why do you need oceans of anything at all? This is a hothouse world (presumably). To have oceans you need something (a) common and (b) volatile, and there's nothing really that springs to mind that fits the bill that can survive in a high temperature environment. Pressure might help a bit though since high pressure (we're talking at least 100 atmospheres) could potentially keep some things that would be gaseous at high temperatures in liquid form. But I can't think of anything right now that'd fit the bill.

But it's more likely that this place would be dry as a bone.

And if I do decide that this solar system will have to be a bit unrealistic to get it the way I want, then that's the way it has to be. After all, why did I call it a 'fictional' solar system in the first place. :wink: :wink: :wink:


Maybe rather than 'fictional' you could just call it 'impossible' because it has some things in it that just can't exist in nature.

But if that's the case, just say "it's got liquid lead oceans on top of osmium" and make it quite clear that this just can't ever happen in reality. Don't even to try to justify that with science because you can't - you'd be hammering a square peg into a round hole, and anything you come up with to justify it will be shot down because it just can't happen in reality.


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