The "oldest" Forum Guys

[Malenfant]

I am just taken aback by some of the rather rude remarks in the past that others have said about Chris's lack of involvement and overall impatience some will have...pressuring the authors repetedly for something none of them need even offer for free.....considering all the work he has done currently to revolutionise the way we observe the universe....

They're not rude, they're direct. Fact is, Celestia is screwed unless Chris either becomes active and frequent here again and starts working seriously on it, or unless he faces facts and admits he can't do it anymore and lets others take over. Or of course, others just take over anyway.

But this status quo of promises followed by nothing for months is not useful at all, for anyone. All his 'work' means nothing if Celestia development just freezes because he is unwilling to make and commit to a decision.

[hank]

But this status quo of promises followed by nothing for months is not useful at all, for anyone.

Sorry. Celestia development is strictly a volunteer effort. There are no promises. What you get is what you get. If you don't like it, don't use it. Speaking for myself (and I'm sure many others), I've found Celestia "as is" to be very useful, and I'm most grateful to Chris and the other developers for making it available. Too bad you don't feel the same.

- Hank

[Malenfant]

But this status quo of promises followed by nothing for months is not useful at all, for anyone.

Sorry. Celestia development is strictly a volunteer effort. There are no promises. What you get is what you get. If you don't like it, don't use it. Speaking for myself (and I'm sure many others), I've found Celestia "as is" to be very useful, and I'm most grateful to Chris and the other developers for making it available. Too bad you don't feel the same.

If that's the case, nobody should be complaining that nothing is happening, and nobody should be frustrated by it. Yet developers like Fridger are getting frustrated at the lack of initiative and direction from Chris.

Sorry, I don't buy the 'it's free, suck it up' argument. Chris is being the key obstacle to futher development here by not letting others take over who are very clearly capable and are willing to take the time to do necessary development. Right now there are no more official builds, there is no more core engine development, there is no movement in new directions for celestia. This is not a satisfactory situation for any project, whether it is free or not.

Complaining about a lack of direction or leadership now has absolutely nothing to do with 'being grateful for what we've got already' - nothing at all - and it is wrong IMO to link them. That creates an attitude of 'don't complain because you'll come across as ungrateful' which is not a valid interpretation of why complaints are being made. IMO it's an emotional, irrational denial and dismissal of what the real problem is, it's burying your head in the sand. And the problem as I see it is that Celestia's core development is being hamstrung by Chris' absence and unwillingness to let others take over in his stead. This program made amazing strides while he was developing it, with more on the horizon - now it's pretty much stuck.

Nobody is ungrateful for what is already here, and I think we all appreciate that it's very good and very useful for a free product as it is - so you're wrong to imply that this is the issue. But we're not talking about the past here, or what we've got in the present - we're talking about the program's future. And right now, in the future Celestia's core looks like it's frozen in the state it's been for the past year or so - i.e. going nowhere.

[PlutonianEmpire]

Can y'all tone it down, guys?

I'm trying to get some sleep here.

[Cham]

Just to say that I TOTALLY agree with Malenfant.

[Rassilon]

You know no one answered my first post in this thread...Does anyone have any idea who was around before this forum was launched and what the history of Celestia was during this time....I would be interested to know....

[t00fri]

You know no one answered my first post in this thread...Does anyone have any idea who was around before this forum was launched and what the history of Celestia was during this time....I would be interested to know....

Didn't you know that Celestia emerged from a neat conceptionally similar Linux & Windows 95/98/NT/2000 project called OpenUniverse (started in 1997). OU was however manily concerned with a simulation of the Solar system.
Still I think that it would only have been fair if in these various recent "feature articles" about Celestia and Chris, OU had been cited as the predecessor of Celestia (as well as a number of other things ) .
Here is a reminder that doesn't look too unfamiliar:



Chris was ( loosely) part of this community. Eventually OU started to stagnate because the lead programmer run out of spare time and Chris took off with the Celestia project with various OU guys helping. Some parts of the Celestia code is still from OU, as far as I remember. Certain things seem to be cyclic in this business

I still might have OU somewhere.

Here you may read more history and admire OU screenshots, etc:

http://www.openuniverse.org

Bye Fridger

[hank]

Sorry, I don't buy the 'it's free, suck it up' argument. Chris is being the key obstacle to futher development here by not letting others take over who are very clearly capable and are willing to take the time to do necessary development. Right now there are no more official builds, there is no more core engine development, there is no movement in new directions for celestia. This is not a satisfactory situation for any project, whether it is free or not.

Thanks to Chris, Celestia is free software, not just as in "free beer", but as in "freedom". If you're unhappy with the current direction or leadership of Celestia, and you don't care about what Chris thinks, then you're free to take the existing code base and develop it in whatever direction you want. Chris is no obstacle if that's what you want to do.

Fridger may have some frustration, but he doesn't want a confrontation with Chris. I'd expect most of the other developers who've worked with Chris feel the same way. I'm still hopeful that we can find a way forward that Chris is comfortable with. And I don't think continual complaining is helpful.

- Hank

[Jeam Tag]

Didn't you know that Celestia emerged from a neat conceptionally similar Linux & Windows 95/98/NT/2000 project called OpenUniverse (started in 1997). OU was however manily concerned with a simulation of the Solar system.
...
I still might have OU somewhere.
Here you may read more history and admire OU screenshots, etc:
http://www.openuniverse.org
Bye Fridger

Ah, do not remember that Celestia emerged from OU, thanks Fridger: i had just noticed in my links page
http://jeam.tag.free.fr/CELESTIAhtml/CelestiaAddons-Liens.htm
that some guys from OU quite helped in Celestia development after Ou stopped... I've discovered OU in 2000, and Celestia next year:-) The last version is downloadable on the site, isn't it? If not I have a copy somewhere, too, if someone want to se this program. Jeam

[Malenfant]

Thanks to Chris, Celestia is free software, not just as in "free beer", but as in "freedom". If you're unhappy with the current direction or leadership of Celestia, and you don't care about what Chris thinks, then you're free to take the existing code base and develop it in whatever direction you want. Chris is no obstacle if that's what you want to do.

But Chris IS being the obstacle, from what Fridger and other devs are saying. Chris insists on retaining control of where the Celesia core is going, and won't allow others to change the core code in the CVS (from what I understand).

That 'freedom' that you appreciate isn't really there because Chris is still insisting on all the changes being done through him. Yes, one can change the code base etc, but that won't be an official build of Celestia then because of that.

[BrainDead]

Nobody is ungrateful for what is already here, and I think we all appreciate that it's very good and very useful for a free product as it is - so you're wrong to imply that this is the issue. But we're not talking about the past here, or what we've got in the present - we're talking about the program's future. And right now, in the future Celestia's core looks like it's frozen in the state it's been for the past year or so - i.e. going nowhere.

Well put, and a valid statement in my opinion...

Personally though, I won't lose any sleep if Celestia's development does
NOT continue. I'll just continue using the thing to explore our Universe.

As long as we continue to get add-ons from some *very* talented people,
I'll simply continue to explore as best I can with what's available. I might
lose some sleep if you guys ever quit creating new add-ons though.

Thanks

[Dollan]

Well put yourself, Bob.

Yeah, it would be a shame if Celestia stopped all official development, but the state of the program now is nothing to complain about. Sure, there are some bugs, but frankly I love it, and while I can see it getting better in the future, I cannot see it becoming worse for the present.

...John...

[hank]

But Chris IS being the obstacle, from what Fridger and other devs are saying.

So let Fridger and other devs deal with the situation as they will. More complaining just isn't helpful. Are you not aware of the exhaustive previous discussions of this topic? We've been through this all many times before.

- Hank

[Malenfant]

So let Fridger and other devs deal with the situation as they will. More complaining just isn't helpful. Are you not aware of the exhaustive previous discussions of this topic? We've been through this all many times before.

You saying "stop complaining" isn't helpful either though. That just keeps everything the same as it is today and as it has been for many months. If you don't have a problem with the current situation then of course you're not going to see the point in complaining about it. That doesn't mean it's right to keep quiet though. The fact that we've had many 'exhaustive discussions' about this and nothing's really changed is ample cause for continuing to complain about it until something is done.

I've already pointed out that I'm not complaining about or ungrateful for what we already have, and Celestia is still perfectly usable as it is - so the 'state of the program now' is not the issue. But it could be so much more, given the core projects that people like Fridger are working on. Celestia needs to be allowed to grow, and the only way that can happen is if Chris gives the go-ahead for other devs to take command of it, or if other devs just charge on and ignore Chris.

I don't see a problem in others taking control of the project from Chris either, if necessary. If that gets him to come out of the woodwork to say "hey, what are you doing?!" and getting more involved again as he realises how he's let it languish for so long then great. If not, well at least Celestia can move on. Either way, he's not taking part in things right now so we're not losing anything by going ahead without him.

[hank]

You saying "stop complaining" isn't helpful either though. That just keeps everything the same as it is today and as it has been for many months. If you don't have a problem with the current situation then of course you're not going to see the point in complaining about it. That doesn't mean it's right to keep quiet though. The fact that we've had many 'exhaustive discussions' about this and nothing's really changed is ample cause for continuing to complain about it until something is done.

Obviously, my telling you to stop complaining won't help if you won't stop. But there's simply no reason whatever to expect that continued complaining will have any positive effect. You haven't added anything new to the discussion. You're only venting your own frustration. That's understandable, but unproductive. Believe me, I sympathize with your frustration. But more complaining just isn't going to help.

- Hank

[Rassilon]

Fridger,

Yeah I was sort of aware that Celestia somewhat spawned from OpenUniverse....I was wondering if by chance some of the old forums still existed before Chris set up shatters.net....

or is this all there is left of those forums....
http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php? ... =2648&et=0

It would be interesting to see how things developed from that setting into how things are now....And if that information were available it could also help me to appreciate what an achievement Celestia has become in the past 3-4 years.....

[hank]

It would be interesting to see how things developed from that setting into how things are now....And if that information were available it could also help me to appreciate what an achievement Celestia has become in the past 3-4 years.....

Looks like the Celestia project at SourceForge was created on 23 Feb 2001, and Chris made the following announcement a few days later:

Code: Select all

Posted By: cjlaurel
Date: 2001-02-26 11:48
Summary: Celestia on SourceForge

I've checked in the source for version 1.03 of Celestia and begun a routine of regular checkins at SourceForge. Here we go . . .? 
? 
--Chris? 


There's a forum for Celestia at SourceForge but there aren't many posts. There are also some archived mailing lists there.

- Hank

[Malenfant]

But there's simply no reason whatever to expect that continued complaining will have any positive effect. You haven't added anything new to the discussion. You're only venting your own frustration.

I guess this is true.

That's understandable, but unproductive. Believe me, I sympathize with your frustration. But more complaining just isn't going to help.

So what will help? The developers don't appear to be able to add their stuff to the core code without Chris' permission. Chris isn't talking. Why should people continue to work on Celestia's core if it's not going to be in the later releases of the program?

How can anything you developers do be productive or useful if Chris won't let go and allow it into the core and in future releases without him having last word on everything?

[t00fri]

But there's simply no reason whatever to expect that continued complaining will have any positive effect. You haven't added anything new to the discussion. You're only venting your own frustration.

I guess this is true.

That's understandable, but unproductive. Believe me, I sympathize with your frustration. But more complaining just isn't going to help.

So what will help? The developers don't appear to be able to add their stuff to the core code without Chris' permission. Chris isn't talking. Why should people continue to work on Celestia's core if it's not going to be in the later releases of the program?

How can anything you developers do be productive or useful if Chris won't let go and allow it into the core and in future releases without him having last word on everything?

Hi all,

I would suggest to be patient for just a little longer.

Toti and I will release today or tomorrow a new test version of Celestia with lots of new galaxy code. We have been working intensively on it since several months!

Unfortunately, we lost ~ a whole day (yesterday) trying to also get this Windows VC++.net compiler to digest our new code . While the sources compile without the slightest problems with the standard Linux gcc compiler, VC++.net /as usual/ has his OWN standards... But meanwhile, we are almost there...

This release will represent a benchmark case in various respects that are being discussed in this thread! I shall announce the new release simultaneously to Chris, describe the modifications, indicate the location of the sources and ask him /urgently/ for his comments and suggestions before committing the code to CVS.

Then we shall see what happens.

Either I will "retire for good" or Toti and I will go on implementing the next items on our /long/ ToDO list.

Bye Fridger

[t00fri]

Update notice:

The Windows VC++.net compiler now likes our code and all the new galaxies are meanwhile also glowing on the screen of my XP notebook...

Cheers,
Fridger