The "oldest" Forum Guys

[bh]

Fridger me old skip...look what you've started now! Hehe...I reckon Chris is doing his best with whatever he thinks best.

Let's take over...come to Oxford and we can discuss over a few beers (ESB, and hoegaarden! bloody excellent).

Oh.... and there's some excellent jazz round here too!

Chris won't leave us behind I'm sure of that....hang tough guys!

regards...bh.

[WildMoon]

E-mail sent!

[Malenfant]

E-mail sent!

I think Fridger was being somewhat sarcastic (you'll have to get used to that from him, he's always like that. Especially with new people).

I suspect that many people that Chris has actually had some dealing with in development etc have sent him emails and PMs too, with the same sort of minimal or non-existent effect. Not to be harsh, but it's rather unlikely that a total newcomer to the board who he's never heard of before is going to succeed in bringing him back where other more experienced developers have failed.

These sorts of "where is Chris?" questions have kept coming up in the past year or so (certainly in the past few months). He should know by now that people are wanting some solid answers and explanation from him but he evidently either has no time (unlikely) or can't be bothered (more likely) to respond directly.

It'd be nice for this round of threads to have some kind of positive resolution but I'm not optimistic.

[ogg]

Well my first post was as a guest just after Fridger signed up...

http://celestiaproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php ... hlight=ogg

and I was lurking before that and ever since... guess I don't count as 'active' though. I haven't really used Celestia for over a year now, since my old laptop just isn't good enough to support features like the new model format. but still use the forums for their sheer procrastination value.

Cheers to all old-timers.

[hank]

These sorts of "where is Chris?" questions have kept coming up in the past year or so (certainly in the past few months). He should know by now that people are wanting some solid answers and explanation from him but he evidently either has no time (unlikely) or can't be bothered (more likely) to respond directly. :(

I can't speak for Chris, of course. But I doubt that he doesn't respond because he "can't be bothered". I think it's because he doesn't have an answer that will satisfy us. He wants to be able to work on Celestia, but keeps getting distracted by other things. He'll get back to Celestia as soon as he can, but he doesn't know when that will be. There isn't anything more he can say than that.

- Hank

[t00fri]

These sorts of "where is Chris?" questions have kept coming up in the past year or so (certainly in the past few months). He should know by now that people are wanting some solid answers and explanation from him but he evidently either has no time (unlikely) or can't be bothered (more likely) to respond directly.

I can't speak for Chris, of course. But I doubt that he doesn't respond because he "can't be bothered". I think it's because he doesn't have an answer that will satisfy us. He wants to be able to work on Celestia, but keeps getting distracted by other things. He'll get back to Celestia as soon as he can, but he doesn't know when that will be. There isn't anything more he can say than that.

- Hank

Of course I agree completely here. No wonder after our respective PM exchange this morning

It's really the root of the problem. Chris clearly still has a strong "attachment" to Celestia, no doubt, and he wants to stay in control, no doubt either...

Bye Fridger

[Rassilon]

Really all in all its pretty much no ones business what Chris is doing really...Its his decision if he wants to participate in his forums....He has no obligation to anyone here as no one is getting paid to do the work....I quite frankly am getting rather tired of the constant threads complaining about his so called lack of interest or negligence as we the community have really no concept of his real reasons or intentions on the matter....I personally think all future posts and threads on the matter should be closed or removed and we should show some consideration to his feelings on the matter....What would YOU think of someone posting some of the comments Ive seen in the past few months if this was YOUR project....I know that I would feel less inclined to post here in such circumstances....but that moderation is not my decision....just my humble opinion....

[rthorvald]

I quite frankly am getting rather tired of the constant threads complaining about his so called lack of interest or negligence as we the community have really no concept of his real reasons or intentions

I agree completely, and that is precicely why i haven??t posted anything on the "Future of Celestia VS Chris reasons, wishes and situation" threads. He is entitled to do anything he please.

I suggest we leave that subject behind us, everyone.
That said, i do think some *constructive* discourse on where Celestia is headed would be good: is it possible to continue development without stepping on Chris??toes, and if so, what would it take for (someone) to be willing to take charge of the project...

-rthorvald

[t00fri]

I quite frankly am getting rather tired of the constant threads complaining about his so called lack of interest or negligence as we the community have really no concept of his real reasons or intentions

I agree completely, and that is precicely why i haven??t posted anything on the "Future of Celestia VS Chris reasons, wishes and situation" threads. He is entitled to do anything he please.

I suggest we leave that subject behind us, everyone.
That said, i do think some *constructive* discourse on where Celestia is headed would be good: is it possible to continue development without stepping on Chris??toes, and if so, what would it take for (someone) to be willing to take charge of the project...

-rthorvald

Runar,

honestly, I think the issue is more complicated than Ras' and you are putting it now. Right you are, of course that Chris can do what he wants. But Celestia is GPL licensed and hence forks would be an easy possibility to go on without Chris. When I wrote Chris about Paulo's (and other people's) respective efforts, he was more than unhappy about it perhaps close to being upset. So it's precisely that squeeze in which we are that causes plenty of headache to me for example.
I have no intent whatsoever to initiate some confrontation with Chris in this respect, after /~ 4 years/ of pleasant collaboration and most friendly personal relations...

I am still not sure how we should go about releasing this vast amount of new galaxy code etc. that Toti and I have now completed to the extent of a new Celestia test version (including a Windows EXE). While the new general code structure is very much to Chris liking, the modifications are nevertheless more massive than any previous individual new CVS commits.

Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

He is entitled to do anything he please.

If "doing what he pleased" didn't inconvenience an entire community built around a software project that he initiated then you'd be right.

Unfortunately, it does inconvenience that community. Time and again developers have been hamstrung by Chris' lack of response. When I say "he can't be bothered" I mean that perhaps he is still interested in the program, but he will not put it high enough on his priority list to actually do anything about it. Usually if you're enthusiastic about doing something then you'll make time to do it - even if it's only at a very slow rate. Chris has shown no such effort though. He promised a new prerelease (pre7) months ago now, and that never showed up.

I certainly don't believe that it's remotely constructive to just go "huh, he can do anything he wants though" or "who are we to complain" or whatever. If that's the case then everyone may as well pack up and forget about Celestia right now because that's what he's beein doing for the past year or so at least and the program has (officially) stalled completely and has gotten absolutely nowhere.

Chris needs to make a decision. Either he commits some time to Celestia's development right now and sticks to that, or he hands over control to other people to continue official development of Celestia's core, or he puts the whole thing out of its misery. Or he continues to do nothing and the program dies anyway as the development community drifts away. This community needs active leadership, not passive silence.

[ElChristou]

...is it possible to continue development without stepping on Chris??toes, and if so, what would it take for (someone) to be willing to take charge of the project...

This is the major problem, as apparently Chris wants to keep total control of the dev... That means that meanwhile he is out, nothing can be done seriously... People like Doctor Joe who begun some patchs to solve orbits problem will be quickly discourage by the leak of serious/profesional feedback on their works...

I'm afraid the dev is "out for holydays until *unknown date*", and nothing can be done apart waiting (see Paolo aborted intent of fork)...

[t00fri]

...
I'm afraid the dev is "out for holydays until *unknown date*", and nothing can be done apart waiting (see Paolo aborted intent of fork)...

ElChristou,

do you mean you don't want our new Celestia test version (say tomorrow) , including a vast amount of new galaxy code?

Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

do you mean you don't want our new Celestia test version (say tomorrow) , including a vast amount of new galaxy code?

Dunno about anyone else, but I'd love to see that .

That's another solution of course - for the other developers to just charge on ahead regardless of what Chris thinks. At least that way something can get done...

[ElChristou]

...
I'm afraid the dev is "out for holydays until *unknown date*", and nothing can be done apart waiting (see Paolo aborted intent of fork)...

ElChristou,

do you mean you don't want our new Celestia test version (say tomorrow) , including a vast amount of new galaxy code?

Bye Fridger

Don't make me say what I haven't
Your work with Toti is the exeption to the rule... but what after?
Lots of improvements with the engine for example need the presence of Chris...


**

Tomorrow??

[t00fri]

...
I'm afraid the dev is "out for holydays until *unknown date*", and nothing can be done apart waiting (see Paolo aborted intent of fork)...

ElChristou,

do you mean you don't want our new Celestia test version (say tomorrow) , including a vast amount of new galaxy code?

Bye Fridger

Don't make me say what I haven't
Your work with Toti is the exeption to the rule... but what after?
Lots of improvements with the engine for example need the presence of Chris...


**

Tomorrow??

ElChristou,

I don't know what you mean with "improvements with the engine". All of the present modifications concern the "engine". I see the problem mainly on the OpenGL side. We need a complete overhaul of the atmosphere code. Urgently! That's tricky OpenGL art...I want to be able to dive through layers of clouds etc...(cf TITAN!) Here Chris is urgently needed.

The next steps in the present project would be to incorporate thousands of clusters and gaseous nebulae, the two other kinds of DSO's. Very similar philosophy as with the galaxies.
We shall use analogously galactic cluster and open cluster templates. Nebulae are more difficult since their shapes are basically irregular. Planetary nebulae might be easier to render on a mass rendering scale. The PERL extraction of catalog data as well as the code structure is already well prepared for these obvious and necessary extensions.

Bye Fridger

[rthorvald]

But Celestia is GPL licensed and hence forks would be an easy possibility to go on without Chris. When I wrote Chris about Paulo's (and other people's) respective efforts, he was more than unhappy about it perhaps close to being upset. So it's precisely that squeeze in which we are that causes plenty of headache to me for example.
I have no intent whatsoever to initiate some confrontation with Chris in this respect, after /~ 4 years/ of pleasant collaboration and most friendly personal relations

Well, now i appreciate your statements in a different thread about "going private" if worst comes to worst...

I am still not sure how we should go about releasing this vast amount of new galaxy code etc. that Toti and I have now completed to the extent of a new Celestia test version

Go unofficial...? Without any support, if neccecary. Unless that will make matters worse, of course.

If "doing what he pleased" didn't inconvenience an entire community built around a software project that he initiated then you'd be right

If you are inconvenienced by other people??s choices, that can??t be helped. That is the risk of getting something for free...

Chris needs to make a decision [...]? This community needs active leadership, not passive silence.

Of course you are right. But since the licence is GPL it ought to be possible to discuss solutions... Hopefully in a framework that does not alienate Chris, or fragments the dev team and the community...

- rthorvald

[ElChristou]

...I don't know what you mean with "improvements with the engine". All of the present modifications concern the "engine". I see the problem mainly on the OpenGL side. We need a complete overhaul of the atmosphere code. Urgently! That's tricky OpenGL art...I want to be able to dive through layers of clouds etc...(cf TITAN!) Here Chris is urgently needed.

I have use "engine" (rendering engine) thinking in the way Celestia manage 3D (->OpenGL of course), so your example of atmosphere is one of the numerous things to improve.

The next steps in the present project would be to incorporate thousands of clusters and gaseous nebulae, the two other kinds of DSO's. Very similar philosophy as with the galaxies.
We shall use analogously galactic cluster and open cluster templates. Nebulae are more difficult since their shapes are basically irregular. Planetary nebulae might be easier to render on a mass rendering scale. The PERL extraction of catalog data as well as the code structure is already well prepared for these obvious and necessary extensions.

Cool!! More great stuff ahead
For the Nebulae, it would be cool to implement volumetric effect or some others OpenGL tricks, because in the actual state of the rendering engine I cannot imagine a positive result... (once more Chris needed...)

[WildMoon]

I'ma join the "Chris" side. This is a free program and none of us would be here without Chris's help. He's helped many many people's lives - amatuer astronomers and pros at NASA - by making Celestia.

[Rassilon]

Personally I dont think Chris would mind if his project continued under the helm of others....Isnt that whats happening now?

Thats not what I ment initially....to purpose to say that its Chris's decision alone as there are other authors of the software namely Fridger here on case that is what was taken from my above post in meaning....I am just taken aback by some of the rather rude remarks in the past that others have said about Chris's lack of involvement and overall impatience some will have...pressuring the authors repetedly for something none of them need even offer for free.....considering all the work he has done currently to revolutionise the way we observe the universe....

I dont mean to offend but to merely conjecture....

[Michael Kilderry]

How'd you know?

I'm 13. Gonna be 14 on Nov. 12

Hi WildMoon, you're the first person on the Celestia forums I've seen that's younger than I am. I turned fourteen back in March this year. I don't think sending emails to Chris will help that much, I've sent emails to him before on various matters and I never got a reply back.

However it happens, I hope development of Celestia continues soon, there's still a lot of work to be done to make the program even better.