inappropriate discussion

[Dollan]

All I can say, Don, is wow.... I absolutely love those textures, and I definitely cannot wait for the add-on to be released. Heck, I may make a seperate installation of Celestia just for this add-on!

...John...

[Guckytos]

Hi Don,

can't wait 'til you are finished and i can lay my hands on this system. Looks really very, very nice.

Keep up the excellent work,

Guckytos

[Beowulf01]

WOW I bow before your greatness!! LOL
Great work cant wait to Download it.

[Don. Edwards]

The HD 28185 Add-on project is closed. I have stopped all further porting.

Don. Edwards

[Cham]

The HD 28185 Add-on project is closed. I have stopped all further porting.

Don. Edwards

Huh ? Why, oh why ?

I'm waiting for that awesome addon ! Geez, what is happening Don ?

[ajtribick]

The HD 28185 Add-on project is closed. I have stopped all further porting.

Don. Edwards

This is terrible and unexpected news - screenshots of the first version of this add-on were what got me into Celestia in the first place, and I was immensely looking forward to this add-on.

[danielj]

It??s all Chris??fault.Why don??t he pass the project to more interested people and give up the copyright?Chris Laurel is being very lazy,always inventing excuses to not launch the Celestia 1.4.0 final.I??m getting sick with it.HE CAN??T DO ANYTHING HE WANT.Because of him,the community is breaking apart...

The HD 28185 Add-on project is closed. I have stopped all further porting.

Don. Edwards

[TourqeGlare]

Aw bullshit!

[ajtribick]

It??s all Chris??fault.Why don??t he pass the project to more interested people and give up the copyright?Chris Laurel is being very lazy,always inventing excuses to not launch the Celestia 1.4.0 final.I??m getting sick with it.HE CAN??T DO ANYTHING HE WANT.Because of him,the community is breaking apart...

The HD 28185 Add-on project is closed. I have stopped all further porting.

Don. Edwards

In case you hadn't noticed, Celestia is distributed under the GNU General Public License which gives users the right to use the software freely, which allows authors to modify the code as they see fit, and create derivative versions. If you were interested in doing so, or learning to do so, you could. And as for Chris being lazy, in case you haven't noticed there is an imminent new prerelease. In any case, Chris has a life beyond Celestia - in case you haven't realised, free software doesn't pay its authors all that much, and unfortunately this world still operates under a system whereby money is pretty much essential to live.

I suggest you make sure of your claims before you start throwing accusations around like that.

[ElChristou]

This wil seems stupid , but as the Mars thread, I have completly miss this post... Becuse I'm busy at the time, I check the topic's titles before reading and I must confess that this one hasn't caught my attention...

Too late...

[rthorvald]

It??s all Chris??fault.Why don??t he pass the project to more interested people and give up the copyright?Chris Laurel is being very lazy,always inventing excuses to not launch the Celestia 1.4.0 final.I??m getting sick with it.HE CAN??T DO ANYTHING HE WANT.Because of him,the community is breaking apart...

That is the most ungrateful thing i have read in a long time. I can only hope you had a very bad day when you wrote this. Chris *is not* working for you! Like you and me (and Don), he??s entitled to do whatever he likes to do.

I am also unsure what this has to do with Don??s announcement.

-rthorvald

[danielj]

Why you asked me?It??s simply because of Chris??absence,almost all developers are retiring.The progress in the forum is too slow because it have been ages since any pre-release.If it??s true that we don??t need Chris,why the progress in addons,especially realistic ones,are being so slow?It??s because we need Chris codes.But he is always in vacation,climbing mountains,skiing...It??s clear that people are losing interest in Celestia,specially Chris

It??s all Chris??fault.Why don??t he pass the project to more interested people and give up the copyright?Chris Laurel is being very lazy,always inventing excuses to not launch the Celestia 1.4.0 final.I??m getting sick with it.HE CAN??T DO ANYTHING HE WANT.Because of him,the community is breaking apart...

That is the most ungrateful thing i have read in a long time. I can only hope you had a very bad day when you wrote this. Chris *is not* working for you! Like you and me (and Don), he??s entitled to do whatever he likes to do.

I am also unsure what this has to do with Don??s announcement.

-rthorvald

[Spaceman Spiff]

At Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:51 pm in New closeup Cassini images of Janus and Pandora,

Unfortunately,I don??t know how to transform a image in a map,and don??t have time to learn this.

In this topic,

Chris Laurel is being very lazy,always inventing excuses

Call for Mr. Kettle on line 1, it's a Mr. Pot.

Spiff.

[ElChristou]

It??s all Chris??fault.Why don??t he pass the project to more interested people and give up the copyright?Chris Laurel is being very lazy,always inventing excuses to not launch the Celestia 1.4.0 final.I??m getting sick with it.HE CAN??T DO ANYTHING HE WANT.Because of him,the community is breaking apart...

That is the most ungrateful thing i have read in a long time. I can only hope you had a very bad day when you wrote this. Chris *is not* working for you! Like you and me (and Don), he??s entitled to do whatever he likes to do.

I am also unsure what this has to do with Don??s announcement.

-rthorvald

There is a bit of truth in Danielj words... I'm not saying that Chris MUST or NOT work for us, but I can say that his silence has been very negative for the community... and THIS is not normal.
I haven't be able to find a post from him saying "...guys I will be out for some months (years)..." or "...guys, I stop definitively the dev...'' or even "...guys I don't know if I will continue the dev, so I need to take a break to take a decision..." or "...guys I'm bored from the forum/community, so I will take my distance for a while..."...

This silence (IMO) IS REALLY NOT CORRECT.

Bye

[Spaceman Spiff]

ElChristou,

No. I understand that disappointment leads to frustration, but one must be circumspect. I must point out that in fact concerning software development and internet undertakings, I agree it should not be regarded as 'correct' but it is a very normal thing.

This is why Richard Stallman created the GPL (see http://www.gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html): to anticipate this problem. If the software is free, then someone else can pick it up, use it, modify it, redistribute it.

So, if someone becomes depressed, loses motivation, finds new love, or is run over by the proverbial number 13 London Bus, the rest of us have a chance if we make the effort.

If one thinks this lack of support is a problem that can only be associated with free software because of its casual, low-cost nature, but never proprietary software, or even hardware, then think again:
"Want to complain about Dell? Forget it", The Register, 13:53 11 Jul 1005.
"Miracle in Redmond! Tablet PC memory bug fixed", The Register, 00:18 06 Jul 1005.

Spiff.

P.s., OK, I tease danielj here a little, but I must say I'm impressed with t00fri's restraint that he hasn't jumped on danielj this time! Well done Sir!

[ElChristou]

I'm agree with those points, but I'm just talking about human relationship, and through the internet or not, there is some basic rules about courtasy and respect, and in this case, I don't find the silence of Chris very correct... that's all... (not really his silence, better the fact he hasn't give his point of view before "living"...)

[d.m.falk]

ElChristou,

No. I understand that disappointment leads to frustration, but one must be circumspect. I must point out that in fact concerning software development and internet undertakings, I agree it should not be regarded as 'correct' but it is a very normal thing.

This is why Richard Stallman created the GPL (see http://www.gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html): to anticipate this problem. If the software is free, then someone else can pick it up, use it, modify it, redistribute it.

So, if someone becomes depressed, loses motivation, finds new love, or is run over by the proverbial number 13 London Bus, the rest of us have a chance if we make the effort.

This drives at the heart of the entire Celestia forking issue- Although Chris, et al, started Celestia, they're not necessary for continued development, provided there is some open mechanism that keeps development open to anyone interested. While Celestia needs to continue, it's totally unnecessary to split the actual Celestia community! All side development off from the main could continue here quite freely- even different Celestia projects could build upon one another without being so overly centralised. (My understanding is that much of present Linux development works like that- Yes, lots of different builds and distros, but quite often ideas from one cross into another, depending on the whims of the distro developers.)

This is where I have disagreements with Paulo, in part, though. It's not whether it should be done, but how. Being GPLed means that essentially, it need not have Chris' or anyone else's approval- Do what you want to do, as long as it doesn't violate the terms of the GPL- but whatever you do, do it openly with the whole Celestia development & user community.

To everyone: Don't give up on Celestia- It's time for Celestia to grow once more.

If one thinks this lack of support is a problem that can only be associated with free software because of its casual, low-cost nature, but never proprietary software, or even hardware, then think again:
"Want to complain about Dell? Forget it", The Register, 13:53 11 Jul 1005.

I can attest to that! Not only thast, but it took Dell four friggin' years to get around to recalling their power adaptors for notebooks they sold in 2001-2002... It's too late for my presdent Dell notebook- The CPU's almost fried, but it's still barely useful, at least until I get a new 'puter.

Me? Bitter?

Nah.

But back to Celestia... Development needs to be democratised, here- Or at least independent development needs to go forward without the principle team's approval. (Although feedback is ALWAYS a good idea! )

Perhaps, with such daring, intrepid souls, Celestia will become a useful tool for people and institutions of all types where a love of space (and a quest for knowledge) would find something like Celestia a useful tool. Perhaps more integration with online ephemeral data sources- even live data acquisition. I could see Celestia one day gracing the computer labs at NASA, JPL and ESA, as well as the other space agencies and other educational and research institutions....but not in its present form. It's too slow, and doesn't do all that much. We, the Celestia community (both non-coders and coders alike) need to take this engine and make it into a useful piece of software.

d.m.f.

[Rocket Man]

Is this the doomsday for Celestia?

First its add-on canceled, now Don leaving, and now an argument about chris' absence and GNU's.

Here are more of my two Cents,

There is a Thread Paolo created to bring in a team to help start the developing of Celestia and running, http://www.shatters.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7193, If you want to help.

For Chris' absence, He has a Life, too. If He is married, I think his wife don't want him be on the computer all day long trying to complete versions, Heck he could be fixing lots of bugs in celestia. Think about this, Celestia Development is just like Video Game development, A lot of hard work is put into it.



Well,
May Celestia Live on!!

[Spaceman Spiff]

... but I'm just talking about human relationship, ...

Hmm yes, but when the majority of people on the internet aren't even aware of Netiquette (http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html)* one has to develop a thick skin. It's been said one should not look to make friends and social relationships on the internet. Really, most of us are strangers to each other. I wouldn't expect to see all members of forums like Celestia's as equal to (paid-up) members of celebrity fan clubs. Does Bill Gates personally report to Microsoft users?

I am also unsure what this has to do with Don??s announcement.

You know, sometimes even during these quiet days, some threads are so long to follow, or there are several, and after checking n times that what I wrote is technically correct, grammatically correct, typographically correct and not inadvertently offensive, I find I give up replying to some threads that I intended to.

Let's remember that this topic was originally by Don. Instead of Don's leaving being Chris's fault, I'd view it as more likely to be for example my fault. I think I might be guilty of never replying to any of Don's posts. After other long postings, I'd come back to for example one of Don's thread and then think: "Hmm, Don's textures are great, but I've spent four hours typing other things, and can't think of anything concise yet valuable that is not 'That's great! When's it ready?,'" and move on. I think I never sent any adulation to Runar either!

So, you see, I don't tie what Don did with Chris' absence. Depressed people sometimes do things to draw adulation, hoping to rebuild their confidence. A failure to have expectations fulfilled can be rather heartbreaking. Unfortunately, human nature on the internet doesn't accommodate that. One has to not expect anything.

I fear this matter is being perturbed into starting a 'blame culture'. I'd wonder if Chris would be scared away by the implication of what some have written here.

Is this the doomsday for Celestia?

No, I don't think it's doomsday for Celestia. Yes, Paolo starting a fork could be a good thing. No, there's no argument about GNU's ... (!?).

Celestia is probably just undergoing a lull. Speculation about Chris is impractical. I say to all, what about finding out about C++ programming, OpenGL, trying out Linux? You get closer to development status yourself that way.

I can attest to that!

Oh dear, commiserations! I didn't actually expect a victim to turn up on the forum and back me up!

Celestia shall prevail!

Spiff.

* I did mean to wave this link around in a more promenent place for [some!] people to notice, but where...?

[Don. Edwards]

Hey Everyone,
Someone has offered to audit the HD 28185 systems SSC file for accuracy or as best that can be done for an alien system. I tried to get this done over a year and a half ago without luck. This should go a long way to help get things all tied up so I can get it out to everyone. I still can't give a date as of yet. Unfortunately we missed the add-ons three year anniversary date for release. But I can confidently say I should have it wrapped up by summers end.

I have seemed to have misplaced one of HD 28185 Asteroid belt SSC though. I guess I will have to generate another one.
As it stands there will be the initial inner asteroid belt ssc of 150 bodies, with an additional belt ssc to add another 250 bodies. This second ssc will be for more advanced video cards with more memory available to play with. Then there will be the outer Kuiper like belt that contains 400 bodies. This too will be an optional ssc for those with the power and memory to use them. I have no problem using the whole add-on with a 128Mb video card and I haven't even mentioned the rogue body ssc that contains the comets and other bodies.

There are just a few issues at this time. The add-on is most likely going to be in 2 versions. An HD 28185 light that will be based on 1k and 2k png files for lower end cards and without the asteroid belt. Then there will be the HD 28185 heavy that will be almost completely DDS textures at the 4k and 2k level. There may a single 8k texture for those with real powerful cards; it would just be a cloud texture though. This one will definitely included the inner asteroid belt of 150 objects. The additional inner asteroid belt and Kuiper belt are modular so they can be treated as plug-ins for the whole add-on.

Now if I could just figure out how to create and Ort cloud the system really would be realistic.

Don. Edwards