Just one more comment please!

[Bob Hegwood]

Mr. TerrorByte (or Bill?)

Aren't we the same people who actually helped you when you had
questions concerning the start.cel in Celestia? See the topic HERE to
refresh your memory.

Why the sudden hostility after we did indeed give you help?

Sorry, just curious.

Take care, Bob

[bh]

Well...I suppose I had to say something...I was going to say something before the topic was locked. Guys...please chill...terrorbyte was expressing an opinion and wanted some sort of help...that's OK?

We've been here for years because we are interested in astronomy and nothing comes close to putting astronomy on our desktops like Celestia. Period (I can't believe I used that phrase...being from Oxford you know!).

I detectected a little hostility going both ways...I've always found this forum to the most friendliest and informative on the web, and consider you guys/girls also.

If terrorbyte turns up again (I hope he does)...let's give him some room and answer his questions...Crikey! He maybe only 8 years old. I 've got one of them so I know what they're like!...no offence here terrobyte..

Here we all tend to 'muck in' as it were...so don't leave on a bad note.

I agree Celestia isn't the easiest thing to learn....but lots of people have worked good and hard for you!...My favourite eyecandy has to be Rasillon's NGC1999...followed by Fridger's Mars...my shuttle...Saturns rings...on and bloody on.!

Bill...please come back and 'muck in' with the rest of us!

regards...bh.

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Actually, I'm fairly appalled at the way Terrorbyte was treated on that thread. My contribution to it was only to say that he hadn't exactly provided much in the way of specific complaints, but there were quite a few people there who were lobbing petty insults and smarmy comments around who should damn well know better than to behave like that. Heck, Bob even decided he'd take the opportunity to throw a wild, highly over-generalised and totally unecessary and unjustified swipe at MIT graduates because he thinks they're socially inept.

I also find it rather interesting that Terrorbyte didn't throw any insults at anyone til the very last page, after quite a few people had piled on ridiculing his comments, lobbing accusations at him, questioning his education, and even being so pathetic as to poke fun at his name (as if he's got the only name that isn't serious around here). Great. Way to go, people.

Yes, the guy didn't exactly complain constructively. But is that how this community is going to respond to that sort of thing? With insults, ridicule and generalisations? With sarcasm and snarky comments? That's not going to help anyone at all.

He's right, there ARE people here who are just downright hostile to criticism - and funnily enough, most of them jumped on that thread. We really don't need people being so elitist about the program here.

Frankly, Celestia DOES have some flaws in its execution and in its presentation, but it's still damn good for what it is though (especially for the price). No program is perfect.

And where WAS the moderation there? Did anyone even bother to LOOK at the Forum Guidelines that Selden put up, stickied at the top of the page? Anyone notice the "Be polite to one another" bit there? Or how about "If someone's posting upsets you, ask if they meant what you think they wrote. Usually, you'll find that they intended something quite different."

[Rassilon]

Actually I might have overreacted...notwithstanding I believe every word I said...If anyone can do better than stop complaining and do something about it...

As for how it escalated I have to painfully agree that things got a tad out of hand in the end....I dont want to point fingers because actually this should just all fall down a few pages buried in the past along with all the other useless fights that have occured in these forums...

[Michael Kilderry]

Gosh, this topic was so popular not even locking it could stop it!

I had noticed that a few people were suggesting that Terrorbyte was a troll (not that he neccessarily is), but the funny thing is, if you encounter a troll on the internet, it is best not to reply to them because what they want is the attention! And he got plenty of replies. 3 pages in under 3 days!

I didn't really have much to say on that thread, as my opinion of Terrorbyte was that he had a bad experience with Celestia and was showing it in a not-quite-so-wise way (and probably not too happy at the time), not actually trying to do anything wrong.

I agree with Rassilon when he says the topic was getting out of hand, I knew it was going to get locked, and by the time I posted I was surprised that it actually wasn't yet, even if it hadn't yet grown totally out of control.

Michael Kilderry

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Gosh, this topic was so popular not even locking it could stop it!

I had noticed that a few people were suggesting that Terrorbyte was a troll (not that he neccessarily is), but the funny thing is, if you encounter a troll on the internet, it is best not to reply to them because what they want is the attention! And he got plenty of replies. 3 pages in under 3 days!

There's a saying on another board I'm on: - "do not feed the troll".

There have been a lot of trolls in the past on that board (most of them, funnily enough, were unregistered users), but I found that it was equally obnoxious to accuse someone of BEING a troll. Sometimes, people just said that because they didn't like what was being said, not because the so-called "troll" was actually just posting something controversial to stir things up.

In this case, he probably was being trollish. It did sound like he was having problems, and he certainly could have phrased his issues better and in a less confrontational way. But IMO that still didn't warrant the response he got.

[Michael Kilderry]

I think Terrorbyte may have just been inexperienced with proper forum conduct. He could have been more descriptive and less confrontational, but I think he didn't really want help with Celestia and would rather have wanted to tell us what he thought in a direct manner like he did.

Michael Kilderry

[t00fri]

As most of you know, I am certainly not an expert in "american style" politeness matters. However, to me TerrorByte's initial post (including his header style) in his

CELESTIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thread, was clearly both agressive and offensive.

To designate Celestia as nothing but "a badly animated screensaver" is a clear offense to Chris, the other developers and all contributors.

Many of the people involved in Celestia and its add-ons have spent many weeks and months of their spare time to create Celestia as it is now 3 years after its start!

This style of writing means looking for trouble, also according to European standards. OK, that's what happened. Terrorbyte's earlier questions were answered in a friendly and helpful manner by forum members. So there was no objective reason whatsoever to open up such an agressive and offensive thread, as he did.


Bye Fridger

[Dollan]

You know, I had a nice long post here (I'm sure a few saw it), and then I thought, "What's the point? My feelings were made quite clear in the other thread, and I believe it was locked for a reason." So I decided to clear out what I had. If anyone wants my feelings on the matter, and my attitude and responses in regards to trolls, you can email me.

As for myself, I'm going to bed. I'd love to say that I hate night shifts, but since I work them five nights a week, I guess I can't quite say much!

...John...

[Spaceman Spiff]

Terrorbye, What you are experiencing is a shock from false expectations. ...

Actually, well spoken (written?), Tetzauh. A very thoughtful post. If Terriblight is a troll, he'll show himself up now. ...

Why don't some of you reply a little constructively?

Ah, QED. Terrorbyte took that bait and ignored Tetzauh, so I anticipated the troll correctly. Now shall we relegate that locked post (and this one?) to Purgatory?

Ok guys, sorry, I know I am just a newbie, trying to solve some of my problems by reading the more I can, but are 3 pages really necessary to "solve" this kind of "problems"??

Yes, true, but here we are dealing with an example of a 'flame war'. Whether Terrorbyte is trolling or not, the post he made was naive. If any of the five initial points he made had any correctness behind them, then of course the Celestia community should take note as he departed. However, I cannot 'grok' any of the problems he has except by concluding that the chap has been very inefficient at learning to use Celestia, and just never 'got' it. How does he conclude C++ programming is essential to add-ons?

Such 'netiquette' breaches have been happening on bulletin boards since the very early '90s (you got such hostilities in debating meetings before the internet anyway). It's caused by the impersonalisation of the internet: some people think they can throw common social values such as politeness out the window and remain immune from reciprocation because they aren't in sight of adversaries. As a 'newbie', you'd have met this kind of thing sooner or later, and developing a strategy to deal with will become necessary. I think this forum can at least benefit from seeing a demonstration of what a flame war does, which was what I was warning against previously under other circumstances. The fact this one was directly related to Celestia, and not off-topic, was very fortunate to the lesson. Perhaps that's worth 3 pages, this time.

Actually, I'm fairly appalled at the way Terrorbyte was treated on that thread. My contribution to it was only to say that he hadn't exactly provided much in the way of specific complaints, ...

I also find it rather interesting that Terrorbyte didn't throw any insults at anyone til the very last page, ...

And where WAS the moderation there? Did anyone even bother to LOOK at the Forum Guidelines that Selden put up, stickied at the top of the page? Anyone notice the "Be polite to one another" bit there? Or how about "If someone's posting upsets you, ask if they meant what you think they wrote. Usually, you'll find that they intended something quite different."

It's very good of you to be the white knight again, Evil Dr, but I could see that Terrorbyte was ignoring corrections to his obvious misconceptions. Also focusing on insults is a trollish trait: they fish for victim status as well.

He maybe only 8 years old.

I cut myt teeth on a 'system' I acquired in 1983. BEFORE Microsoft .

Hmm... 30-something? He should know better than to post ill-considered blurb? If anyone is going to post contentious matters to a furom, they should a) check their facts are correct, b) spell correctly, c) ensure technical terms are correct, because they're going to come in for a hard time.

And perhaps Michael Kilderry has it right in his last post above on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 10:21 am, but again I would have thought a 30-something 'power user' with BBS experience would have thought through what he posted. Less likely mistaken, more likely intended to be insulting. I think he really meant what he wrote, even with the falsehoods.

If Terrorbyte would come back with more treatable complaints, perhaps there would be salvation. For example, we heard nothing about the graphics processor side of his 'power' machine.

Spiff.

P.s., I do not think anyone should go looking to find out personal data on this guy - that's stalking. Nor should there be any direct PMing of flame.

[Bob Hegwood]

Actually, I'm fairly appalled at the way Terrorbyte was treated on that thread.

Are you talking about the thread which I pointed to in the first message in
this topic?

He asked for help, and was treated very well as a new-comer. That's
why I simply didn't understand why he got so hostile. <shrug>

If you mean the Celestia thread, then he was treated as someone who had
asked for it.

[Rassilon]

As most of you know, I am certainly not an expert in "american style" politeness matters. However, to me TerrorByte's initial post (including his header style) in his

CELESTIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bye Fridger

Actually I thought it was someone raving about how much they love Celestia....didnt set me off until I read the post....Quite frankly I generally dont let those trivial blurts about Celestia bother me considering most everyone usually posts positive and well I know its not crap....Hes definately in the minority...Really all in all the ego was the beast again in this instance...and we all succumbed....

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Well, I'm certainly not defending TB, I'm just saying that it seems to me that the reactions from other people were not particularly justified. It's one thing to get pissed off at what someone says, it's another to start ridiculing them.