bugs - Bugs - BUGS ARGHHHHH !!!

[don]

It seems that *everywhere* I turn in the Windows version of Celestia, there are all kinds of bugs and problems.

I just tried to make a video recording and found three more bugs / problems in addition to the several I already reported during the last 3 to 4 months, that have not been addressed.

Is *anyone* going to fix bugs in Celestia?

[Christophe]

Hi Don,

I understand your frustration, seeing bugs, reporting them and then seeing them several releases later _is_ frustrating, even more so when you can't simply fix them yourself.

I think one of our problems is that we don't have enough developers, more precisely we don't have enough users who can code and fix bugs.

Fixing bugs is not fun and unless it realy bugs you as a user you often just won't bother. That's why it's important to have a large user base, and to have developers among your users.

Another problem is that as far as I know, nobody keeps track of bugs seriously, i.e. confirming, categorising, prioritising, assigning... Unless a bug is assigned to someone, there is little chance that it'll get fixed.

If you want to dedicate some time to Celestia, I think a good thing who be that Chris give you admin rights to the SourceForge bug management system, you could then clean up the mess that's there, enter your bugs and categorise (OpenGL, Astro Calculation, Win GUI, KDE GUI...) and prioritise them. Assignement would be simple, most of the bugs would be assigned to Chris :-) who could reassign them.

How does that sound?

[don]

Howdy Christophe,

I have indeed already offered to do this, and other things, for Chris, with only a non-committal reply from him about having to organize some things first. Then never heard any more, even after additional PMs to him.

So, my frustration is not only based on a seemingly "we don't fix non-crash bugs" attitude, but also based on a no-action / no-reply attitude from "the man" himself, AND my being a programmer for 20+ years but having a total lack of knowledge about C++ and OOP <grrr>.

When I was writing freeware in the 90's (VB, C, Delphi, Paradox ObjectPAL, others) I *_WISH_* that someone would have offered me x hours of their day to me !!! But it never happened. Now, here I am offering XX HOURS of my time, because I LOVE what Celestia is and could become, but Chris seemingly doesn't want it. Sheesh! How many times does one ask before walking away?

If you are serious that nobody has kept a list of valid bugs / problems with Celestia, then going backwards in time through the Celestia Bugs forum 500+ messages (just for the past 12 months) and attempting to reproduce each one and then categorize and record it will be a MONUMENTAL task! It will also REQUIRE the assistance of others because one person does not have all OS's installed on one machine. All I have is Windows XP. This means we will REQUIRE several people, each with other Windows versions, Mac OS/X, Linux, Unix, KDE, GTK, etc. to test and reproduce the bugs / problems reported on those specific OS's.

However, based on what I've seen since May of this year, there seems to be a MAJOR lack of interest from users when it comes to doing any kind of "work" related to Celestia, except to create add-ons and textures (which is GREAT). So, I doubt that this would become a reality. Heck, I couldn't even get people to answer questions about script commands, let alone Chris, who is the only one who REALLY knows the answers <sigh>.

So, how in the world are we going to test bugs / problems across 8 to 10 different OS's/interfaces?! Or, would it be the responsibility of the particular OS release maintainers to test, reproduce, and fix bugs / problems related to their OS?

As you mentioned in a posting some weeks ago, most of the problems I have reported do not exist in the Linux version. So, we are back to square one with Chris being the only person to do everything (Windows code-wise) <frown>. And we already know he doesn't like fixing bugs. So, what would be the point in spending hundreds of man-hours getting the SourceForge Bug tracking system up to date -- just to have it go out of date again, with no non-crash problems being fixed? Just seems like it would be yet another waste of time <frown>.

I guess my programming career / morals / ethics / whatever must have been way out in left field or something because I could have never imagined not fixing problems reported to me by my users. Never. And I'm not talking about just programming for pay, but the freeware I wrote also. And no, I'm not saying I was "better" than other programmers -- just more consciencious maybe?

Unfortunately, way too many programmers today seem to have learned the Microsoft way of creating programs -- lots of features, bugs that rarely get fixed, more features get added creating more bugs -- until the thing is so buggy that it has to be completely re-written <sigh>. And it appears that Celestia is becomming this way also, until some user with C++ experience comes along and starts addressing all the previously reported problems.

What to do?

[marc]

Don,

First off, don't complain about something that is done for free. Its just plain rude.

Second.

AND my being a programmer for 20+ years but having a total lack of knowledge about C++ and OOP <grrr>.
When I was writing freeware in the 90's (VB, C, Delphi, Paradox ObjectPAL, others)

I have SIX to TEN+ HOURS of time per day to offer you Chris,

With that much experience and free time, learning C++ and MSVC6 should be a piece of piss for you.
If you have used Delphi then you have already done some OOP, it uses Object Pascal and that is an Object Orientated Language.

Lastly,
If your bugs are deemed serious enough they may eventually get fixed.
Keep in mind that you are probably the only person using the video recording and scripting features in anger.

nuff said

[Christophe]

What to do?

Learn C++? ;-)

Seriously, as I said I understand your problem, but nobody can force Chris to work on things he's not interested in. Chris has been kind enough to release his software as Free Software giving everyone the right to modify, copy and distribute it freely.

Surely you can *require* bugs to be fixed when you pay for software or when you're given nothing else but the compiled code, but that just won't work with FOSS.

[don]

First off, don't complain about something that is done for free. Its just plain rude.

Howdy marc,

Thanks for sharing your opinions, but I highly disagree.

"First off", it was CHRIS who decided to release Celestia into the world of Open Source, not me. Just because a program is "free" doesn't mean a thing, except that it is free.

And, since Chris provided TWO means by which to report bugs (Shatters.net and SourceForge), as well as asking people to "test" Celestia pre-releases -- then the bugs that ARE reported should at least be acknowledged. If Chris does not want to fix bugs, then there should be NO means by which to have users report them. As well as NEVER asking for anyone to "test"anything related to Celestia. OR, the Bug reporting instructions should explicity state, "DO NOT report any bugs other than those that crash Celestia."

So, I am the one who finds it "rude" that ASKED-FOR bug and problem reports are being ignored. Sorry, this is my opinion.

Second. ... With that much experience and free time, learning C++ and MSVC6 should be a piece of piss for you.
If you have used Delphi then you have already done some OOP, it uses Object Pascal and that is an Object Orientated Language.

Sorry, but I am a procedural language programmer by experience (mostly minis and mainframes, with BASIC on Apple and PCs). In the late 1990's, I spent countless weeks and months trying to get my head around C++ and OOP (trying even harder with Delphi), but never fully succeeded. My mind is simply stuck in procedural code mode and is now medicated due to arthritic pain, which makes it impossible to learn anything as complex and involved as OOP and C++ at this time. I am on disability, which is why I have "free time".

Lastly, If your bugs are deemed serious enough they may eventually get fixed.

What do you mean "my" bugs? During the past 12 months, MANY people have reported 500+ bugs and problems in the Celestia BUGS forum. So "I" am not the only person reporting bugs and problems.

Keep in mind that you are probably the only person using the video recording and scripting features in anger.

Huh? Why don't you stick it in your ear marc?

What have YOU done for the Celestia community?

Have YOU bothered to spend hundreds of hours beta-testing every single available function in Celestia, and painstakingly documenting each and every problem found -- not once, but SEVERAL times for different pre-releases -- only to have MOST of them ignored? NOPE!

Have YOU spent hundreds of hours trying to document the Celestia .CEL Scripting language, with narry any help from the people who WROTE it, in order to allow ALL Celestia users to be able to write their own scripts? NOPE!

So, until YOU have actually spent hundreds of hours doing something USEFUL for the Celestia community, and trying in utter frustration to get assistance from "the developers" to do these things ... why don't you go back to hacking Chris' Celestia code to create your own "Elite like space game" -- instead of encouraging anger here?

My initial post in this thread asked a VALID question, and it still stands:

... Is *anyone* going to fix bugs in Celestia?

If nobody stands up and asks these hard questions, what will Celestia become? Probably just another one of the thousands of "free", bug-ridden, highly-downloaded, barely used, nobody-cares, programs <FROWN>. This is something that seemingly only a small handful of non-C++ programming Celestia users do NOT want to see happen. I am one of them and I am outspoken so I will stand up and ask these hard questions. This is who I am.

-Don G.

[don]

Howdy Christophe,

Learn C++?

Believe me, I wish I could! However, as I wrote to marc above, this is not an option for me at this time because I am on pain medications that make my mind less than useful for learning highly complex things such as OOP and C++ .

... nobody can force Chris to work on things he's not interested in.

Yes, I know, and I certainly do not want to "force" anyone to do anything. However, if Celestia bugs and problems don't get addressed as they come up, the list will eventually become overwhelming and the code will need to be completely re-written at some point in time. In the meantime, anyone who is trying to use Celestia for serious things, such as learning / teaching, have to try and work around all the problems, which in itself is more work and can be a real pain.

Maybe the question should have been: "How can we get more C++ programmers involved in Celestia coding?"

Surely you can *require* bugs to be fixed when you pay for software or when you're given nothing else but the compiled code, but that just won't work with FOSS.

If you were to write this in any of the top several hundred Open Source project forums out there today, I think they would laugh at it <smile>.

As I wrote to marc, "free" means nothing, but "free". Open Source means nothing, but that anyone can view / edit the source code. Hiding behind the veil of "free" and "Open Source" as a reason for not fixing bugs is not valid in my mind. Sorry. Where would Unix, Linux, C, C++, or any of the thousands of "free" programs be today, if their developers used this reasoning? And yes, they ALL started with ONE developer .

-Don G.

[HankR]

Don,

I sympathize with your frustration, but as a MacOS X user I'd much rather have Chris working on new features or bug fixes in the cross-platform core than spending his time fixing bugs in the Windows version.

- Hank

[don]

Howdy Hank,

I thought you were the MacOS X developer / maintaniner, no?

Isn't there just one "core", for all OS's? Sorry, I am not familiar with what code sections are cross-platform and which ones are not. Yes, by all means, I agree that the core code is the most important to be maintained.

-Don G.

[don]

Christophe ...

Since none of the UI problems I reported exist in the Linux version, do the video problems exist in the Linux version? Or is this code section one of the cross-platform sections?

Maybe it's time I should install a second OS on my PC and run the Linux version of Celestia?

-Don G.

[jamarsa]

As far as I know, video capture in linux is currently not available. Only Windows version supports that.

Respect to the Windows GUI problems, the solution may be to get another developer working specifically on that. I think there are some people looking for it (Paolo?). The benefit of the open source is that everyone can contribute if he/she makes a good work and stay in compliance with the common goal of the project. Fixing bugs (or ar least pointing at the solution) is one of the easiests ways to contribute. Sadly I have no time currently (my worktime is ~10/11 hours/day now, and then the homework oh, my), or I would have offered to fix some bugs myself (I know C++ and Windows programming, although I'm not really expert at it). If you can look at the code and understand it, no need to wait for chris, isn't it?

I can understand chris perfectly, because the same happens to me constantly with my work programs. When I implement new features on my programs, there are changes that affect the basic structure, creating new bugs in previously stable parts of my application. It takes a lot of time to review all the application and test in a real use to be sure that most (never all) bugs are fixed. My situation is different, however, in that my bugs can affect data used to take bussiness decisions. The correct behaviour is IMPORTANT. That's the reason why I don't distribute a beta-version to more than one or two customers, previous advice of being *very* careful with it for several months.

Celestia won't corrupt my finances, though, so I can live with a buggy beta version for a few months (new features, wow!!). If I want to use a stable program, I switch to whatever version I feel best at that (1.3.0, 1.2.4, etc).

[don]

Howdy Javier,

As far as I know, video capture in linux is currently not available. Only Windows version supports that.

Bummer.

Respect to the Windows GUI problems, the solution may be to get another developer working specifically on that.

Yes, of course. But how can we attract new C++ programmers who have some free time to offer? What is keeping experienced C++ Celestia users from contributing? I started a new thread in the Users forum to try and find out.

If you can look at the code and understand it, no need to wait for chris, isn't it?

Finding and reporting a bug / problem is a whole different story than trying to find where in the code the problem exists and what else it might affect.

If I want to use a stable program, I switch to whatever version I feel best at that (1.3.0, 1.2.4, etc).

Agreed. However, beta versions are created and released expressly for the purpose of having people test the program and report problems they find, so they can be fixed. Testing and reporting is exactly what I have been doing -- gladly. The frustration arises when the reports are seemingly ignored and problems are not fixed, even after 5, 6, or 7 releases later. Just something I guess I need to "get over" if I plan to stay with Celestia <sigh>.

-Don G.

[don]

Okay gang (or is it "lynch mob"?),

I will put my time and money where my mouth (writing) is ...

[Moved to the Developer forum: http://ennui.shatters.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3622]

-Don G.

[TERRIER]

Here you go Don, I hope these links will be of some help;

C++

http://www.wtvl.net/mike/webjr/begcpp.htm

http://www.cgcu.net/internet/documents/cpp1.pdf (pdf File)

http://members.tripod.com/jcarbrey/cpp_ ... ginner.htm

OOP (JAVA)

http://sepwww.stanford.edu/sep/josman/oop/oop1.htm


Good luck!
TERRIER

[don]

TERRIER,

Sorry I moved the message while you were replying.

I copied it to the Developer forum thread I started (http://ennui.shatters.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3622). See reply there.

-Don G.