NASA project is dead -Let's establish our own education site
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Topic authorfsgregs
- Posts: 1307
- Joined: 07.10.2002
- With us: 22 years 1 month
- Location: Manassas, VA
NASA project is dead -Let's establish our own education site
Hello everyone:
As many of you know, earlier this year, a project manager at NASA discovered Celestia and saw its enormous potential to excite and educate school kids and other visitors to the NASA website. He liked Celestia for several reasons. First and foremost, it is free and anyone using it on the NASA website would not have to buy anything. Secondly, it is obviously the best space simulation in existance anywhere and NASA was very keen to introduce something of its quality on their site. Third, it has a large resource of talented folks to custom tailor activities and features for NASA.
Two NASA project managers decided to contract with myself and a few other Celestia members to devise a set of written educational activites that would take the reader on a trip through the Celestia universe .... to the Solar system and beyond. Because I had written a well received lesson plan which is already posted on the Celestia site, they invited me to write the activities for their site.
Over the span of 4 long months, I did so ... with the invaluable help of several of you ... devoting hundreds of collective man-hours to the task. A total of five detailed, step by step "Activities" were written. The subject matter was cleared and approved by NASA in advance. The titles of them are:
1. The Universe - Part 1 - a journey from Earth to the outer edge of the solar system, with a focus on the size of the universe and of space.
2. The Universe - Part 2 - a continuing journey from our Solar System through deep space all the way to the Andromeda galaxy, stopping off at various stars, planets, nebula, black holes, pulsars and galaxies along the way.
3. The Inner Solar System - a detailed tour from the Sun to Mars, covering the inner planets and their moons.
4. The Outer Solar System - a continuing journey from the Asteroid Belt to the comets at the edge of the solar system, stopping at all the outer planets and several of their moons.
5. The Terraforming of Mars - a futuristic journey into the 25th Century to witness the complete human terraforming of Mars into a world of water, plants and oxygen atmosphere.
In addition to the above, several other Activities were/are in the planning stage, to include:
* a trip back in time 4 billion years to visit our early primitive Earth at the time it collides with Orpheus (another young planet) and produces our Moon
* the complete life cycle of a star, from nebula stage through main sequence, nova or supernova, white dwarf or neutron star, pulsar, black hole, black dwarf, etc.
* a tour of the many great spacecraft that populate the Celestia universe, and the space program they represent
* a journey to the fictional worlds made famous by the movies 2001, a Space Odyssey, Star Wars and Star Trek.
* whatever else comes to mind.
Each Activity is a detailed step by step journey of discovery. It assumes that the reader has never used Celestia, and instructs the reader in full on what to do, what keys to press, where to go, what to look at, etc. It also is filled with descriptions and science, explaining as one goes just what they are looking at.
Each Activity is designed to be read and performed by anyone at home or by a school group in a school computer lab. Per NASA's request, the target audience is 5th to about 12th graders in Middle and High School, or any interested lay person.
When I wrote the Activities over a 4 month span, I had many difficult choices to make. Specifically:
A) how long should it take someone to complete an Activity ... step by step. I chose a time frame of about 1 1/2 - 2 hours each, depending upon comfort level and reading speed. This would make it interesting enough without overburdening the reader with too much to handle at once.
B) How much detail would I have to include on how to operate the program? I chose to phrase the Activity as a step by step journey .. assuming that the reader had never seen Celestia before ... let alone learned how to operate it. NASA wanted this and I concurred.
C) Which add-ons would I use ... and if placed on the NASA site for download, how big would that be logistically? I chose to use quite a few add-ons ... since as we all know, they truly boost the enjoyment of the program. In all, they total about 300 MB, uncompressed.
D) Where should I lead the reader in Celestia space and what would they do when they got there? I realised that it would be boring to simply drop on over to each of the planets for a short peek, then move on to another one. I chose instead to do things when we got there ... fly into the atmosphere ... navigate through the rings of Saturn ... chase a spacecraft and try to catch up with it ... witness a double solar eclipse by two moons at once ... watch a near-earth asteroid almost hit Earth, etc. Of course, all this action would make the written instructions quite a bit more complicated than simply including a cel:url for someone to click on... Flying the Celestia spaceship .. controlling time ... centering, following, tracking, etc. all takes quite a bit of written instruction ... all to be done in simple to understand phrasing. However, I felt it was doable and far more enjoyable an experience than simply a static tour.
E) How much background discussion and science should I include? One thing I have learned is that children (and adults) get bored easily if they keep reading narration and are not "doing" something exciting at the same time. A good lesson has to be a tradeoff between using Celestia as a teaching tool, and using it a bit like a video game. Ideally, both can be done seemlessly. In the end, about 1/3 of each Activity is background science and narration, which appears to be a good ratio, based upon student feedback from my own students.
F) Should I include something like a worksheet that a teacher could ask his/her students to fill out as they journeyed through Celestia? After all, grading is important to every teacher who devotes time to a "lesson" like this. I decided to do just that, and I designed each Activity to be accompanied by a 2 page "worksheet" with questions to complete and data to fill in.
G) What level would the text be written for? Middle schoolers prefer one type of phrasing .... high school kids another .. adults a third. I chose a middle ground ... with wording that an 11 year old could understand, but with enough science and Astronomy to satisfy an interested adult.
To make a long story short, with the invaluable and generous help of Chris Laurel, Don Edwards, Jack Higgins, Grant Hutchinson, Selden Ball, David Nessler, a private company in England and others on the forum, we succeeded in creating what I truly feel is a set of five excellent learning Activities. Six entirely new add-ons were designed specifically for this project. In particular, Don Edwards, Jack Higgins and Grant Hutchinson worked with me for three weeks to create an entirely fictional but accurate Mars of the 25th Century. Don drew 19 separate Mars textures alone, and Jack and Grant designed a magnificent set of mirrors that could be used to melt the Martian polar ice caps. A company in England designed an entire animated movie showing people walking around on the terraformed Mars, and even holding hands in the "Celestia Biome" dome.
I have proofed the Activities with four different impartial users (2 students and 2 teachers) and they have loved doing them. I have used them in my own classroom and the word from over 160 of my students has been ("this is so cool") - an "A" rating.
I submitted them to NASA in stages, with lots of drafts, along with an entire data CD of add-on files and accessories. I did have some arguments with one of the project leads over the phrasing of one of the activities, but it looked like we resolved that issue. NASA did pay me a reasonable fee for all five Activities ... but ....
The project appears dead. I have received no further feedback from them. They have neither launched the website nor told me they are emphatically not going to do so. All they have said is that "they may never use the Activities". No explanation of why that might be so has been offered. One of the Project Leads did say that since I own the copyright, I am free to do whatever I like with the Activities, including posting them on the web or selling them to someone else. That is all that he has said. I have sent NASA multiple e-mails, as has Chris Laurel ... to explain to me/us what the problem is, but have received no response .. good or bad. I have not heard from NASA in two months. Even telephone calls are going unanswered.
I can't understand their refusal to explain what problem they appear to have with the Activities or with Celestia, if any. I am left to guess. I have a few theories but ...
That leaves a big decision to make. NASA's initial desire was to open the Celestia universe up to the entire world ... to give school kids and adults everywhere an opportunity to explore our Solar System and beyond, using this most amazing product. I thought then and am completely convinced now that this is not only a GREAT idea, but a necessary one. Many of you are not in education. In my experience, the average person on Earth has no clue what space is really like ... or how big it is. As an experiment, I asked 30 of my High School senior students at random to name the 9 planets in order. Only 18 could do so accurately. Several included names of planets that don't even exist. I also have asked students to choose a size for the universe from 1 million miles to infinity. More than 30% of them thought the entire universe was under 10 billion miles in diameter. These are 18 year old high school seniors, mind you, in a very affluent area of Northern Virginia, living in suburbs of Washington, DC.
They, and the millions of kids like them who don't understand the beauty and magnificance of our universe, NEED Celestia. They also need a simple way to use it, with someone guiding them through some detailed and interactive tours.
I have discussed the idea with Chris and we feel that it may be time to introduce a new level to Celestia ... to create our own "Educational" website. Chris stated that if someone can design the webpage, and I am willing to donate my Activities to it ... he will host it.
I envision a webpage which will include the following:
A) A beautiful background and visuallly appealing layout.
B) Links to not only my Activities, but to any lesson plans or activities from any/all other forum members that wish to contribute. Several of us are educators and I'm sure, can make a wonderful contribution to the site.
C) Multiple age groups ... lessons for middle school through college age to lay adults who simply have an interest in Astronomy.
D) Customized Activity add-ons that can be compressed and downloaded as .exe files, so that once downloaded, the user need not do anything more than click the file name to install all the add-ons ... exactly as the base Celestia product is now downloaded. We might also be able to do something similiar to what Apple Quicktime and other programs do ... download an installer that when clicked, goes out to an FTP site and downloads the remainder of the files.
NASA stated early on that they expected millions of hits to their Celestia site per year. I honestly don't doubt it. Of course, operating our own site would not have the publicity that the NASA site gets, but over time. .. we could surely serve many thousands of students and adults around the world.
Should we do this? I guess it all depends. It is all quite doable and since the Activities I wrote are all complete, we have made a good start. A few months of part time work and such a webpage could become a reality. Would it cause problems? Yes! It would slowly transform Celestia from a great program with a limited distribution, to one that might become world renouned. That will bring a lot of traffic to the Celestia site. It could overload it and force us to find other hosting servers. Is that a good thing? If it introduces thousands of kids around the world to our universe, I think it is
To give you a taste of an Activity, I have modified all of my Activities to remove direct references to NASA and have placed Activity 4 on my website for you to experience (see my link below). It is called, "The Outer Solar System". It requires several add-ons for maximum enjoyment. They include higher end graphics for Jupiter, Neptune and the Pluto/Charon system, rings for all four outer planets, the Voyager spacecraft model/mesh, a near-Earth Asteroid, and a couple of Quicktime video clips that NASA provided, allowing you to enter the atmosphere of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune and pan around. I have placed those add-ons on my site as well, but you will have to modify your ssc file to use some of them. I simply haven't had time to convert them all into Alternative textures or Extras. You can do the activity without them, if needed. If I can find the time, I'll post a modified ssc file on my site to use with the add-ons.
I'd greatly appreciate your feedback. In particular, would any of you great webpage designers be willing to design an educational webpage for Celestia? Some of your pages are absolutely beautiful. We have the talent. Let's use it. Is there anyone else out there who would like to contribute their lessons or teaching aids to the site????)
Awaiting your comments.
Regards,
Frank
As many of you know, earlier this year, a project manager at NASA discovered Celestia and saw its enormous potential to excite and educate school kids and other visitors to the NASA website. He liked Celestia for several reasons. First and foremost, it is free and anyone using it on the NASA website would not have to buy anything. Secondly, it is obviously the best space simulation in existance anywhere and NASA was very keen to introduce something of its quality on their site. Third, it has a large resource of talented folks to custom tailor activities and features for NASA.
Two NASA project managers decided to contract with myself and a few other Celestia members to devise a set of written educational activites that would take the reader on a trip through the Celestia universe .... to the Solar system and beyond. Because I had written a well received lesson plan which is already posted on the Celestia site, they invited me to write the activities for their site.
Over the span of 4 long months, I did so ... with the invaluable help of several of you ... devoting hundreds of collective man-hours to the task. A total of five detailed, step by step "Activities" were written. The subject matter was cleared and approved by NASA in advance. The titles of them are:
1. The Universe - Part 1 - a journey from Earth to the outer edge of the solar system, with a focus on the size of the universe and of space.
2. The Universe - Part 2 - a continuing journey from our Solar System through deep space all the way to the Andromeda galaxy, stopping off at various stars, planets, nebula, black holes, pulsars and galaxies along the way.
3. The Inner Solar System - a detailed tour from the Sun to Mars, covering the inner planets and their moons.
4. The Outer Solar System - a continuing journey from the Asteroid Belt to the comets at the edge of the solar system, stopping at all the outer planets and several of their moons.
5. The Terraforming of Mars - a futuristic journey into the 25th Century to witness the complete human terraforming of Mars into a world of water, plants and oxygen atmosphere.
In addition to the above, several other Activities were/are in the planning stage, to include:
* a trip back in time 4 billion years to visit our early primitive Earth at the time it collides with Orpheus (another young planet) and produces our Moon
* the complete life cycle of a star, from nebula stage through main sequence, nova or supernova, white dwarf or neutron star, pulsar, black hole, black dwarf, etc.
* a tour of the many great spacecraft that populate the Celestia universe, and the space program they represent
* a journey to the fictional worlds made famous by the movies 2001, a Space Odyssey, Star Wars and Star Trek.
* whatever else comes to mind.
Each Activity is a detailed step by step journey of discovery. It assumes that the reader has never used Celestia, and instructs the reader in full on what to do, what keys to press, where to go, what to look at, etc. It also is filled with descriptions and science, explaining as one goes just what they are looking at.
Each Activity is designed to be read and performed by anyone at home or by a school group in a school computer lab. Per NASA's request, the target audience is 5th to about 12th graders in Middle and High School, or any interested lay person.
When I wrote the Activities over a 4 month span, I had many difficult choices to make. Specifically:
A) how long should it take someone to complete an Activity ... step by step. I chose a time frame of about 1 1/2 - 2 hours each, depending upon comfort level and reading speed. This would make it interesting enough without overburdening the reader with too much to handle at once.
B) How much detail would I have to include on how to operate the program? I chose to phrase the Activity as a step by step journey .. assuming that the reader had never seen Celestia before ... let alone learned how to operate it. NASA wanted this and I concurred.
C) Which add-ons would I use ... and if placed on the NASA site for download, how big would that be logistically? I chose to use quite a few add-ons ... since as we all know, they truly boost the enjoyment of the program. In all, they total about 300 MB, uncompressed.
D) Where should I lead the reader in Celestia space and what would they do when they got there? I realised that it would be boring to simply drop on over to each of the planets for a short peek, then move on to another one. I chose instead to do things when we got there ... fly into the atmosphere ... navigate through the rings of Saturn ... chase a spacecraft and try to catch up with it ... witness a double solar eclipse by two moons at once ... watch a near-earth asteroid almost hit Earth, etc. Of course, all this action would make the written instructions quite a bit more complicated than simply including a cel:url for someone to click on... Flying the Celestia spaceship .. controlling time ... centering, following, tracking, etc. all takes quite a bit of written instruction ... all to be done in simple to understand phrasing. However, I felt it was doable and far more enjoyable an experience than simply a static tour.
E) How much background discussion and science should I include? One thing I have learned is that children (and adults) get bored easily if they keep reading narration and are not "doing" something exciting at the same time. A good lesson has to be a tradeoff between using Celestia as a teaching tool, and using it a bit like a video game. Ideally, both can be done seemlessly. In the end, about 1/3 of each Activity is background science and narration, which appears to be a good ratio, based upon student feedback from my own students.
F) Should I include something like a worksheet that a teacher could ask his/her students to fill out as they journeyed through Celestia? After all, grading is important to every teacher who devotes time to a "lesson" like this. I decided to do just that, and I designed each Activity to be accompanied by a 2 page "worksheet" with questions to complete and data to fill in.
G) What level would the text be written for? Middle schoolers prefer one type of phrasing .... high school kids another .. adults a third. I chose a middle ground ... with wording that an 11 year old could understand, but with enough science and Astronomy to satisfy an interested adult.
To make a long story short, with the invaluable and generous help of Chris Laurel, Don Edwards, Jack Higgins, Grant Hutchinson, Selden Ball, David Nessler, a private company in England and others on the forum, we succeeded in creating what I truly feel is a set of five excellent learning Activities. Six entirely new add-ons were designed specifically for this project. In particular, Don Edwards, Jack Higgins and Grant Hutchinson worked with me for three weeks to create an entirely fictional but accurate Mars of the 25th Century. Don drew 19 separate Mars textures alone, and Jack and Grant designed a magnificent set of mirrors that could be used to melt the Martian polar ice caps. A company in England designed an entire animated movie showing people walking around on the terraformed Mars, and even holding hands in the "Celestia Biome" dome.
I have proofed the Activities with four different impartial users (2 students and 2 teachers) and they have loved doing them. I have used them in my own classroom and the word from over 160 of my students has been ("this is so cool") - an "A" rating.
I submitted them to NASA in stages, with lots of drafts, along with an entire data CD of add-on files and accessories. I did have some arguments with one of the project leads over the phrasing of one of the activities, but it looked like we resolved that issue. NASA did pay me a reasonable fee for all five Activities ... but ....
The project appears dead. I have received no further feedback from them. They have neither launched the website nor told me they are emphatically not going to do so. All they have said is that "they may never use the Activities". No explanation of why that might be so has been offered. One of the Project Leads did say that since I own the copyright, I am free to do whatever I like with the Activities, including posting them on the web or selling them to someone else. That is all that he has said. I have sent NASA multiple e-mails, as has Chris Laurel ... to explain to me/us what the problem is, but have received no response .. good or bad. I have not heard from NASA in two months. Even telephone calls are going unanswered.
I can't understand their refusal to explain what problem they appear to have with the Activities or with Celestia, if any. I am left to guess. I have a few theories but ...
That leaves a big decision to make. NASA's initial desire was to open the Celestia universe up to the entire world ... to give school kids and adults everywhere an opportunity to explore our Solar System and beyond, using this most amazing product. I thought then and am completely convinced now that this is not only a GREAT idea, but a necessary one. Many of you are not in education. In my experience, the average person on Earth has no clue what space is really like ... or how big it is. As an experiment, I asked 30 of my High School senior students at random to name the 9 planets in order. Only 18 could do so accurately. Several included names of planets that don't even exist. I also have asked students to choose a size for the universe from 1 million miles to infinity. More than 30% of them thought the entire universe was under 10 billion miles in diameter. These are 18 year old high school seniors, mind you, in a very affluent area of Northern Virginia, living in suburbs of Washington, DC.
They, and the millions of kids like them who don't understand the beauty and magnificance of our universe, NEED Celestia. They also need a simple way to use it, with someone guiding them through some detailed and interactive tours.
I have discussed the idea with Chris and we feel that it may be time to introduce a new level to Celestia ... to create our own "Educational" website. Chris stated that if someone can design the webpage, and I am willing to donate my Activities to it ... he will host it.
I envision a webpage which will include the following:
A) A beautiful background and visuallly appealing layout.
B) Links to not only my Activities, but to any lesson plans or activities from any/all other forum members that wish to contribute. Several of us are educators and I'm sure, can make a wonderful contribution to the site.
C) Multiple age groups ... lessons for middle school through college age to lay adults who simply have an interest in Astronomy.
D) Customized Activity add-ons that can be compressed and downloaded as .exe files, so that once downloaded, the user need not do anything more than click the file name to install all the add-ons ... exactly as the base Celestia product is now downloaded. We might also be able to do something similiar to what Apple Quicktime and other programs do ... download an installer that when clicked, goes out to an FTP site and downloads the remainder of the files.
NASA stated early on that they expected millions of hits to their Celestia site per year. I honestly don't doubt it. Of course, operating our own site would not have the publicity that the NASA site gets, but over time. .. we could surely serve many thousands of students and adults around the world.
Should we do this? I guess it all depends. It is all quite doable and since the Activities I wrote are all complete, we have made a good start. A few months of part time work and such a webpage could become a reality. Would it cause problems? Yes! It would slowly transform Celestia from a great program with a limited distribution, to one that might become world renouned. That will bring a lot of traffic to the Celestia site. It could overload it and force us to find other hosting servers. Is that a good thing? If it introduces thousands of kids around the world to our universe, I think it is
To give you a taste of an Activity, I have modified all of my Activities to remove direct references to NASA and have placed Activity 4 on my website for you to experience (see my link below). It is called, "The Outer Solar System". It requires several add-ons for maximum enjoyment. They include higher end graphics for Jupiter, Neptune and the Pluto/Charon system, rings for all four outer planets, the Voyager spacecraft model/mesh, a near-Earth Asteroid, and a couple of Quicktime video clips that NASA provided, allowing you to enter the atmosphere of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune and pan around. I have placed those add-ons on my site as well, but you will have to modify your ssc file to use some of them. I simply haven't had time to convert them all into Alternative textures or Extras. You can do the activity without them, if needed. If I can find the time, I'll post a modified ssc file on my site to use with the add-ons.
I'd greatly appreciate your feedback. In particular, would any of you great webpage designers be willing to design an educational webpage for Celestia? Some of your pages are absolutely beautiful. We have the talent. Let's use it. Is there anyone else out there who would like to contribute their lessons or teaching aids to the site????)
Awaiting your comments.
Regards,
Frank
Last edited by fsgregs on 04.10.2003, 15:17, edited 1 time in total.
Frank,
This sounds like a great idea!
(Just so people know, my very limited contribution to the project was just a little advice. I didn't provide any of the content.)
However, I do forsee some (solvable) technical problems. Shatters.net's network connection already is greatly overloaded. Improving that so it can cope with drastically increased traffic may be expensive.
Also, it might be reasonable to consider providing the 300MB of content on CD. Of course, the financial, contractural, copyright and maintenance aspects of that are sure to be complex. (Celestia LLC maybe?)
Good work!
This sounds like a great idea!
(Just so people know, my very limited contribution to the project was just a little advice. I didn't provide any of the content.)
However, I do forsee some (solvable) technical problems. Shatters.net's network connection already is greatly overloaded. Improving that so it can cope with drastically increased traffic may be expensive.
Also, it might be reasonable to consider providing the 300MB of content on CD. Of course, the financial, contractural, copyright and maintenance aspects of that are sure to be complex. (Celestia LLC maybe?)
Good work!
Selden
selden wrote:However, I do forsee some (solvable) technical problems. Shatters.net's network connection already is greatly overloaded. Improving that so it can cope with drastically increased traffic may be expensive.
I am curious: Do you know how much traffic is needed for shatters.net? Have other mechanisms of distributing celestia been considered? Could offering celestia via bittorrent lighten the load for the main server? I am not sure if enough people would leave bittorrent running continuously (most files distributed via bittorrent seem to be bigger than celestia), but if so this could become a nice alternative.
Regarding the educational celestia-project: I agree this is an important and good idea. Has supporting the Activities with scripts been considered? These would be more work to write, but would avoid having to change between celestia (possibly fullscreen) and the Activities-description - however, the fixed speed of scripts is a major downside, and beginners won't learn how to use celestia in the process
Howdy Frank,
This is a fantastic idea, to be sure. It's a crying shame to hear that NASA has dropped the ball on this great opportunity to educate the world about our solar system and space.
On your web page, I don't see any add-ons or movies listed for Activity 4. Could you mark them plainly, and/or add missing ones?
In your message, you say all of the add-ons require 300 MB of uncompressed disk space. Could you break this number down by Activity and provide numbers for compressed (zip) files for each Activity? This would give us a better idea as to download sizes by Activity.
My one big concern is hosting this on shatters.net. Since response times from shatters.net have become dismal at best (sometimes several minutes to load a forum message), has anyone (Chris?) gone through the site logs to find out where the bandwidth is going? Is it to download Celestia, or displaying images in the galleries, or downloading add-ons, or what???
If it is to download Celestia, why is SourceForge not being used to distribute it, instead of shatters.net?
If the Galleries are causing the slowdown, maybe it's time for people to consider using some of the free photo galleries on the web?
What is the total monthly bandwidth on shatters.net? I'm asking to see if it is within "normal" limits for web hosting services who have much better connections to the Internet backbone.
It sure would be nice to see the Celestia Education page become a reality
-Don G.
This is a fantastic idea, to be sure. It's a crying shame to hear that NASA has dropped the ball on this great opportunity to educate the world about our solar system and space.
On your web page, I don't see any add-ons or movies listed for Activity 4. Could you mark them plainly, and/or add missing ones?
In your message, you say all of the add-ons require 300 MB of uncompressed disk space. Could you break this number down by Activity and provide numbers for compressed (zip) files for each Activity? This would give us a better idea as to download sizes by Activity.
My one big concern is hosting this on shatters.net. Since response times from shatters.net have become dismal at best (sometimes several minutes to load a forum message), has anyone (Chris?) gone through the site logs to find out where the bandwidth is going? Is it to download Celestia, or displaying images in the galleries, or downloading add-ons, or what???
If it is to download Celestia, why is SourceForge not being used to distribute it, instead of shatters.net?
If the Galleries are causing the slowdown, maybe it's time for people to consider using some of the free photo galleries on the web?
What is the total monthly bandwidth on shatters.net? I'm asking to see if it is within "normal" limits for web hosting services who have much better connections to the Internet backbone.
It sure would be nice to see the Celestia Education page become a reality
-Don G.
don wrote:On your web page, I don't see any add-ons or movies listed for Activity 4.
Ahhh, it is labeled:
Add-ons, S.S part2 - v.4.1
NASA add-on for Solar System Part 2
You might also want to note that this is for Activity 4, or move it to under the Activity 4 entry and indent it?
Code: Select all
Celestia Activity 4.2 - The Outer Solar System - v.4.2
Teaching Activity 4 - covering the outer solar system from the Asteroid Belt to the comets
Add-ons for Activity 4.2 - v.4.1
NASA add-on for Activity 4.2 - The Outer Solar System
-
Topic authorfsgregs
- Posts: 1307
- Joined: 07.10.2002
- With us: 22 years 1 month
- Location: Manassas, VA
Hi folks.
The add-ons for Activity 4 need to be reorganized. I will try to do that this evening and get it up on my site by Sunday.
I am certainly not wed to Shatters.net. Any suitable hosting site or server is fine for an educational website. What I do know is that if schools get interested in this, they could be sending 25 or 30 separate computers to the website at the same time, all interested in downloading. This will be a major pain for the bandwidth. I know absolutely nothing about the topic, so I will leave the entire topic of how/where/by what means of hosting an educational webpage to all of you who know what to do. Just tell me where to send the material.
I will break down the add-ons by activity as soon as I can and will outline their sizes in a subsequent post here ... probably by Monday or so. Obviously, I got the add-ons from the forum add-on pages or directly from Don Edwards and Jack and Grant. We could always post links to each of them, but that would be far too cumbersome for a user. I would much rather set up some way to simply download a self-installing add-on exe file for each activity, or for all of them put together.
PS - If the Primitive Earth and Orpheus project gets completed, that will add at least 80 MB to the add-on folder. Don's textures are very detailed and beautiful and we should include both dds versions and jpg/png versions, which boost add-on size dramatically.
Till later.
Frank
The add-ons for Activity 4 need to be reorganized. I will try to do that this evening and get it up on my site by Sunday.
I am certainly not wed to Shatters.net. Any suitable hosting site or server is fine for an educational website. What I do know is that if schools get interested in this, they could be sending 25 or 30 separate computers to the website at the same time, all interested in downloading. This will be a major pain for the bandwidth. I know absolutely nothing about the topic, so I will leave the entire topic of how/where/by what means of hosting an educational webpage to all of you who know what to do. Just tell me where to send the material.
I will break down the add-ons by activity as soon as I can and will outline their sizes in a subsequent post here ... probably by Monday or so. Obviously, I got the add-ons from the forum add-on pages or directly from Don Edwards and Jack and Grant. We could always post links to each of them, but that would be far too cumbersome for a user. I would much rather set up some way to simply download a self-installing add-on exe file for each activity, or for all of them put together.
PS - If the Primitive Earth and Orpheus project gets completed, that will add at least 80 MB to the add-on folder. Don's textures are very detailed and beautiful and we should include both dds versions and jpg/png versions, which boost add-on size dramatically.
Till later.
Frank
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Frank
I'm very sorry to hear that - I suspected something like that could be what was going on, since there had been no new developments for the last few months...
I definitely think that educational activities, but unless they were somehow connected to a big organisation like NASA, they would never get the promotion (and therefore the popularity) that they should get.
How would you go about getting lots of schools around the US (& around the world?) interested in using this, if it was to be hosted on it's own...?
I'd definitely like to contribute more if the need arises!
I'm very sorry to hear that - I suspected something like that could be what was going on, since there had been no new developments for the last few months...
I definitely think that educational activities, but unless they were somehow connected to a big organisation like NASA, they would never get the promotion (and therefore the popularity) that they should get.
How would you go about getting lots of schools around the US (& around the world?) interested in using this, if it was to be hosted on it's own...?
I'd definitely like to contribute more if the need arises!
Frank,
You mentioned
I thought I should remind everyone that, whether they realize it or not, people's individual add-ons are copyrighted. An explicit copyright statement is not required. Unless permission for redistribution is granted somewhere on their web pages or in the add-on distribution files, redistribution of add-ons requires explicit permission from the authors of those add-ons. In some cases, where the add-ons were created using images found elsewhere on the web (such things are called "derivative works"), permission also has to be obtained from the people who created the original images.
You mentioned
fsgregs wrote: Obviously, I got the add-ons from the forum add-on pages or directly from Don Edwards and Jack and Grant.
I thought I should remind everyone that, whether they realize it or not, people's individual add-ons are copyrighted. An explicit copyright statement is not required. Unless permission for redistribution is granted somewhere on their web pages or in the add-on distribution files, redistribution of add-ons requires explicit permission from the authors of those add-ons. In some cases, where the add-ons were created using images found elsewhere on the web (such things are called "derivative works"), permission also has to be obtained from the people who created the original images.
Selden
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Topic authorfsgregs
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OK, a few clarifications.
All of the Activities I wrote do include a copyright statement in the Credits, assigning copyright for each add-on to the author. For example,
"Earth Textures - Copyright and Courtesy Don Edwards, 2003" or
"Mars Mirrors - Copyright and Courtesy Jack Higgins, 2003"
I assume that if someone has put an add-on out on the Celestia forum for others to download, they would also be willing to have that add-on mirrored on the Celestia educational website. I can think of 50 add-ons that we can all download that appear on multiple sites. As long as the other site does not change the add-on but simply mirrors it, I trust the original author has no problem. If a change was desired, I would expect that the changee would contact the original add-on designer and get approval to make the change. For example, although I did not change any add-ons, I did get approval via e-mail from everyone I could think of to use their add-ons on the NASA site, so I don't envision it being a problem to do so for a Celestia educational site. The number of add-ons is manageable enough to handle. We can simply list the add-ons included in an activity and invite the authors to approve or reject their use. That being said, I SURE HOPE that copyright fights don't start haunting Celestia.
One comment in an earlier post discussed the use of scripts. While a scripted journey is always possible, it becomes nothing more than a choreographed video clip. People can get a little knowledge out of it, but to make these activities truly interactive, I personally do not want to use scripts. Of course, others who wish to design an educational activity for the site may find scripts an ideal tool, so ... that's fine.
Jack, your observation that the site will not have NASA's exposure is completely true. Things will start out slowly. However, you'd be surprised what an immense e-mail network teachers have. Once someone discovers a great site, the web address starts appearing in e-mail exchanges, on school websites, etc. Drop a "global" e-mail address on my school site for example, and I can reach 1400 teachers with a single e-mail. I suspect that our educational page will be visited a few thousand times a day within a year or so of being launched. I don't mind. Frankly, we don't have the resources or bandwidth to take a massive influx of hits from the get-go!
Thanks everyone for the comments. Keep them coming. We still need to hear from anyone who would be willing to design a Celestia educational webpage. So many of you guys have dynamic and exciting pages. Do we have an interest (I hope)
Frank
All of the Activities I wrote do include a copyright statement in the Credits, assigning copyright for each add-on to the author. For example,
"Earth Textures - Copyright and Courtesy Don Edwards, 2003" or
"Mars Mirrors - Copyright and Courtesy Jack Higgins, 2003"
I assume that if someone has put an add-on out on the Celestia forum for others to download, they would also be willing to have that add-on mirrored on the Celestia educational website. I can think of 50 add-ons that we can all download that appear on multiple sites. As long as the other site does not change the add-on but simply mirrors it, I trust the original author has no problem. If a change was desired, I would expect that the changee would contact the original add-on designer and get approval to make the change. For example, although I did not change any add-ons, I did get approval via e-mail from everyone I could think of to use their add-ons on the NASA site, so I don't envision it being a problem to do so for a Celestia educational site. The number of add-ons is manageable enough to handle. We can simply list the add-ons included in an activity and invite the authors to approve or reject their use. That being said, I SURE HOPE that copyright fights don't start haunting Celestia.
One comment in an earlier post discussed the use of scripts. While a scripted journey is always possible, it becomes nothing more than a choreographed video clip. People can get a little knowledge out of it, but to make these activities truly interactive, I personally do not want to use scripts. Of course, others who wish to design an educational activity for the site may find scripts an ideal tool, so ... that's fine.
Jack, your observation that the site will not have NASA's exposure is completely true. Things will start out slowly. However, you'd be surprised what an immense e-mail network teachers have. Once someone discovers a great site, the web address starts appearing in e-mail exchanges, on school websites, etc. Drop a "global" e-mail address on my school site for example, and I can reach 1400 teachers with a single e-mail. I suspect that our educational page will be visited a few thousand times a day within a year or so of being launched. I don't mind. Frankly, we don't have the resources or bandwidth to take a massive influx of hits from the get-go!
Thanks everyone for the comments. Keep them coming. We still need to hear from anyone who would be willing to design a Celestia educational webpage. So many of you guys have dynamic and exciting pages. Do we have an interest (I hope)
Frank
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Scripts could be good, but only if they were made more interactive, and you could do things like displaying real time info about whatever it is you're looking at, etc. (Can you do this with Lua?) The cel scripts aren't exactly stimulating, because they're not really customisable enough- they way one person writes a script could be quite different to how someone else would like to view it.
Frank - I didn't really think about that, but I guess it makes sense - i've managed to get over 11,200 hits on my site since april with no promotion except on this forum (and telling my friends etc), so with a little bit of effort it could still become wildly popular!
The important thing is to get the kids while they're still young- when I was in primary school here in Ireland, there was no compulsory science education until you got into secondary school, although we still did a bit anyway about plants and animals etc. (There is now, but nothing like the kind of thing you're doing) If i didn't get interested in space myself then, I probably wouldn't be posting this now!
I would love to design a site for it, (My addons site isn't the only one i've done... ) But I simply don't have the time at the moment... If it was the summer hols again you could have it up & running in a matter of weeks, if that was necessary!
One other thing Frank - I did a shuttle model for the activities, but I REALLY think you should use one of the bh/TERRIER versions instead. They're just far better!
Frank - I didn't really think about that, but I guess it makes sense - i've managed to get over 11,200 hits on my site since april with no promotion except on this forum (and telling my friends etc), so with a little bit of effort it could still become wildly popular!
The important thing is to get the kids while they're still young- when I was in primary school here in Ireland, there was no compulsory science education until you got into secondary school, although we still did a bit anyway about plants and animals etc. (There is now, but nothing like the kind of thing you're doing) If i didn't get interested in space myself then, I probably wouldn't be posting this now!
I would love to design a site for it, (My addons site isn't the only one i've done... ) But I simply don't have the time at the moment... If it was the summer hols again you could have it up & running in a matter of weeks, if that was necessary!
One other thing Frank - I did a shuttle model for the activities, but I REALLY think you should use one of the bh/TERRIER versions instead. They're just far better!
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Well I personaly had a feeling that something like this was going to happen. With the mess at NASA it is no wonder that the Celestia project has fallen throught the cracks or was just plain be round filed.
I for one think Frank should put all the activities up for public use and he surely has my pemision do what he wants with the texture I made for him.
The Mars part of the project was going to have several texture levels to it. But I lost a great deal of the textures in a hard drive crash or I thought I did. I have since recovered most of the high level textures for the project. So Frank if you still want those big textures I will figure some way to get them to you. I was planing on putting part of them up for download as part of my Mars Central site but with the bandwidth problems that are starting to plague shatters.net I was holding off. I do have an alternate storage space on the web but it only holds 25MB so it can only hold small textures. But it is probably a faster conection. I have also been toying with the idea of hosting some of the files myself and setting up server/gateway PC. I don't know how long I can get away with this befre Comcast will come down on me but I am willing to give it a try.
I for one think Frank should put all the activities up for public use and he surely has my pemision do what he wants with the texture I made for him.
The Mars part of the project was going to have several texture levels to it. But I lost a great deal of the textures in a hard drive crash or I thought I did. I have since recovered most of the high level textures for the project. So Frank if you still want those big textures I will figure some way to get them to you. I was planing on putting part of them up for download as part of my Mars Central site but with the bandwidth problems that are starting to plague shatters.net I was holding off. I do have an alternate storage space on the web but it only holds 25MB so it can only hold small textures. But it is probably a faster conection. I have also been toying with the idea of hosting some of the files myself and setting up server/gateway PC. I don't know how long I can get away with this befre Comcast will come down on me but I am willing to give it a try.
I am officially a retired member.
I might answer a PM or a post if its relevant to something.
Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it
Thanks for your understanding.
I might answer a PM or a post if its relevant to something.
Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it
Thanks for your understanding.
Hopefully some indication of what's happening at NASA might be available within the next week or so. According to http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/pds/projectreview.html, the LTP final report is due October 15th.
(There's a link to an outline they're supposed to use, which may give a hint as to what information might be provided.)
(There's a link to an outline they're supposed to use, which may give a hint as to what information might be provided.)
Selden
NASA Project
This is an extremely important topic. Please make this topic string into a sticky so that it will be readily available for examination.
Thanks
Thanks
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Topic authorfsgregs
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Hi everyone:
Selden, I went out to the NASA link you included and there is no reference of any kind to the Celestia project. Even if they have their meeting, I doubt that we will find out what problem they had with the product.
I have posted a zip file of the complete add-ons to accompany Activity 4, on my website. Read the Read-me file first. It will tell you what to do.
I kind of hesitate to post stickys. It sort of suggests what I have to say is so important that it must take precedence over everyone else's posts. If you all feel the Celestia Education website page is important enough, I'll convert it to a sticky, but frankly, it won't go anywhere at all until someone volunteers to design the webpage. Jack said he could do so maybe next summer. So far, .....
Frank
Selden, I went out to the NASA link you included and there is no reference of any kind to the Celestia project. Even if they have their meeting, I doubt that we will find out what problem they had with the product.
I have posted a zip file of the complete add-ons to accompany Activity 4, on my website. Read the Read-me file first. It will tell you what to do.
I kind of hesitate to post stickys. It sort of suggests what I have to say is so important that it must take precedence over everyone else's posts. If you all feel the Celestia Education website page is important enough, I'll convert it to a sticky, but frankly, it won't go anywhere at all until someone volunteers to design the webpage. Jack said he could do so maybe next summer. So far, .....
Frank
Frank,
The project that uses Celestia is called "Telescopes in Education TIE 3D"
There's a link in the table near the top of the page (http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/pds/projectreview.html ) to a PDF describing its goals: http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/pds/pds/TIE%20PDS.pdf
Down near the lower left is the link to what purports to be the "Final Report" Word DOC file for the overall Learning Technologies Project: http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/pds/LT-Project-Evaluation.doc
I am hoping that the doc file is just an outline that somebody's going to fill in. If it actually is what they're trying to pass off as a final report, well, I would not want to be in their shoes when their project review officer reads it. Most of the sections say "Text describing details goes here." but don't actually contain the required information.
On the other hand, the recommendation for the next fiscal year (which is section 1.10 on page 4) may be all that matters. It essentially throws out everything they've done in the past in favor of a completely new "research based" educational paradigm.
The project that uses Celestia is called "Telescopes in Education TIE 3D"
There's a link in the table near the top of the page (http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/pds/projectreview.html ) to a PDF describing its goals: http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/pds/pds/TIE%20PDS.pdf
Down near the lower left is the link to what purports to be the "Final Report" Word DOC file for the overall Learning Technologies Project: http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/pds/LT-Project-Evaluation.doc
I am hoping that the doc file is just an outline that somebody's going to fill in. If it actually is what they're trying to pass off as a final report, well, I would not want to be in their shoes when their project review officer reads it. Most of the sections say "Text describing details goes here." but don't actually contain the required information.
On the other hand, the recommendation for the next fiscal year (which is section 1.10 on page 4) may be all that matters. It essentially throws out everything they've done in the past in favor of a completely new "research based" educational paradigm.
Selden
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NASA needs you more than you need NASA
NASA needs the co-operation and good will of the Celestia community much more than you need us. I and the Learning Technology Project have demonstrated Celestia and other similar programs to many NASA scientists, astronauts and administrators. At a recent Senior Staff meeting at Ames Research Center, the demonstration was met with applause, and immediate request to demonstrate again at several upcoming public events.
Because NASA intends to redistribute and promote Celestia to schools, we need to do some weird and cumbersome legal stuff, plus go through an external review. We have not actively been advertising web sites, but they do exist.
http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/neo/
http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/planets/
http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/exp/
http://exp.arc.nasa.gov/downloads/celestia/
I and the LT project management have been in contact with Chris, Selden, Jack and many others of you. I apologize for the project (Now I sound like Arnold!) if we have in any way offended any of you. Please believe the NASA project is not dead, more accurate to say we've gone to stealth mode.
Because NASA intends to redistribute and promote Celestia to schools, we need to do some weird and cumbersome legal stuff, plus go through an external review. We have not actively been advertising web sites, but they do exist.
http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/neo/
http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/planets/
http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/exp/
http://exp.arc.nasa.gov/downloads/celestia/
I and the LT project management have been in contact with Chris, Selden, Jack and many others of you. I apologize for the project (Now I sound like Arnold!) if we have in any way offended any of you. Please believe the NASA project is not dead, more accurate to say we've gone to stealth mode.
Alan Federman
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Topic authorfsgregs
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Well, some of the mystery appears to have been cleared up. Based on the NASA Celestia planet website that I visited from Alan's post, it appears that the detailed interactive approach I took with Celestia to tour the solar system and beyond via detailed instructions, keyboard commands and space activities, has been completely rejected by the Project Lead for NASA (Pat Hogan), and replaced by a simple set of cel:url links that he has personally written to bring you to a particular location for a brief look. The text and scientific explanations that I included have also been replaced by (of all things....), rhyming verses. Using Celestia to take a tour of the solar system in rhyme is certainly a novel idea, but not one I would choose. Apparently, Mr. Hogan feels that the viewer prefers it simple and ...
The use of Celestia at the NASA site is reasonable. Most of the cel:url's are OK and I like the use of a cel:url to turn on each of the planet orbits in turn. However, (and this is obviously a biased opinion), the site uses Celestia for nothing more than a quick snapshot of a place and time, and does not compare to what my Activities were designed to accomplish; namely, to immerse the visitor in a true journey through the solar system, using the spaceship, changing time, turning in space, traveling from one point to another, etc. Because of the added compexity, my activities are obviously more detailed to follow than the simple text on the NASA site, but it is my opinion that students in middle and high schools prefer an interactive experience over a static one, even if it means reading and following detailed instructions. Their teachers certainly do. Please feel free to compare the NASA site to my Activity 4, which can be found on my website along with the add-ons for it.
We are free to create our own educational website. I would love to be part of the forum team that makes that a reality. We will not need much in the way of time, but we will need someone to design the site and begin the process of getting add-ons and activities loaded. Are there any volunteers?
I am also working on the next activity ... a story of the life cycle of stars. It is turning out well and I hope to have it ready for viewing in two weeks or so.
Continuing comments are welcomed.
Frank
The use of Celestia at the NASA site is reasonable. Most of the cel:url's are OK and I like the use of a cel:url to turn on each of the planet orbits in turn. However, (and this is obviously a biased opinion), the site uses Celestia for nothing more than a quick snapshot of a place and time, and does not compare to what my Activities were designed to accomplish; namely, to immerse the visitor in a true journey through the solar system, using the spaceship, changing time, turning in space, traveling from one point to another, etc. Because of the added compexity, my activities are obviously more detailed to follow than the simple text on the NASA site, but it is my opinion that students in middle and high schools prefer an interactive experience over a static one, even if it means reading and following detailed instructions. Their teachers certainly do. Please feel free to compare the NASA site to my Activity 4, which can be found on my website along with the add-ons for it.
We are free to create our own educational website. I would love to be part of the forum team that makes that a reality. We will not need much in the way of time, but we will need someone to design the site and begin the process of getting add-ons and activities loaded. Are there any volunteers?
I am also working on the next activity ... a story of the life cycle of stars. It is turning out well and I hope to have it ready for viewing in two weeks or so.
Continuing comments are welcomed.
Frank
Well Frank...I think Alan's post was quite positive, but let's continue with your idea and make a site to match these critiirea.
My web skillls are somewhat limited to just static pages although I can do gif animation, some flash, css ect. I'm no designer, but I know a little about what I like and what pleases others!
I'm sure the talent on this forum could get together and produce something amazing!
Regards...b(ESB)h.
My web skillls are somewhat limited to just static pages although I can do gif animation, some flash, css ect. I'm no designer, but I know a little about what I like and what pleases others!
I'm sure the talent on this forum could get together and produce something amazing!
Regards...b(ESB)h.