32k BlueMarble Virtual Earth Texture is now available

[meegja]

Walton and Mario...many, many thanks for your wonderful texture. It's turned my brain around.

To get the spec and night lights you have to edit BlueMarbleDDS.ssc thus...

AltSurface "BlueMarble DDS" "Sol/Earth"
{
Color [ 0.85 0.85 1.0 ]
Texture "BlueMarble DDS.ctx"
NightTexture "lights-aurora.jpg"
SpecularTexture "earthspec4k.png"
SpecularColor [ 0.5 0.5 0.55 ]
SpecularPower 25.0
HazeColor [ 1 1 1 ]
HazeDensity 0.3
}

This is using my existing spec map and night lights texture.

Regards...bh.

Ah, VERY cool!! Works fine, thanx for the tip!!!!

[Don. Edwards]

Fridger,
When I wrote my coments about the virtual texturing scheme the running word was we were going to be seeing hundreds and hundreds of megs of hard drive space going to be dedicated to a single planetary texture and the overhead it would cause on the rest of the system. My main worry was how are we going to share these massive file asemblies over the internet. I don't have a problem with the virtual texture idea but its iplemantation is going to be limited to those with at least a good third generation GeForce card and to a broadband conection to the internet. You yourself have the problem of being stuck on the old 56k connection so you can see were some users will be feeling left out.

My stopping work on basicly everything Celestia has come about from the realasation of just how much of my Hard drives are now devoted to housing this stuff. I am at close to 60gigbytes of various textures, installs and projects in diferent stages. You can see why I have taken a step back from the whole the thing for a while. It took me 2 days just to pull all of my Celestia files into one hard drive. Now I have to go through all this and clean up over 60 folders each housing textures and seperate installs. Its a nightmare. You can see now why I was just a little put off at the thought at this point of even trying to get involed in trying to create a 32k virtual version of my Earth texture.

I also like how you went out of your way to name me as the lone decenter. I see that you have yet to take a more calculated aproach when talking to or about someone else. Well as my signature says:
Things are changing, But nothing changes, And still there are changes.
Another reason why I keep my distance from you and your comemts in the forum.

Se la vie!

Don. Edwards

BTW
I have the virtual texture up and running. Great job guys. This means I can cross this off my project list. I can even live with the coloring choice. Its pretty close to what mine was going to look like anyway. No I can go on to other things.

[t00fri]

I also like how you went out of your way to name me as the lone decenter. I see that you have yet to take a more calculated aproach when talking to or about someone else. Well as my signature says:
Things are changing, But nothing changes, And still there are changes.
Another reason why I keep my distance from you and your comemts in the forum.

Don,

OK, I shall not get into an argument with you again. But I am also fed up with your constant attempts to criticizing my "abrasive" (Quote: Don) character!

Everyone is free to read your own most negative statements about 32k virtual
textures for oneself in my thread Users/"32k Resolution, 'Virtualtex' and Dim Sam;-)"! As well as Chris' answer, for example...

Here are a few sentences from your post as a quick reminder:

...
I just do not see the need for anyone to be trying to find there
blasted house from orbit.
...
If you want to take Celestia in that direction than fork the project
into two separate programs.
...
One as an "Earth" simulator that can take you down to the most
detailed surface images and one that returns us to a more pure "Space
Simulator" witch was what Celestia is all about.
...
I would be much more receptive to being able to use 8k clouds maps
than to use a 32k texture even in tiled mode.
...
Here are just a few dissenting reasons.
1. The files are just going to be unrealistically too large to download.
2. We are looking at the need of possible DVD media for storage and DVD drives are not on all Celestia users' computers.
3. The use of multiple CDs for storage of the textures in place of DVD.
4. The acceptable slowdown of Celestia responsiveness to input.

I think -- in view of this post from you -- my statement above was
correct, in no way besides the point and also in no way unduely
agressive towards you:

[bh, meegja] You describe the typical first 32k sensations very well;-). For that reason, I also could not understand why Don.Edwards was so much opposed to this incredible new level of detail...The amount of detail is so stunning that clouds are just in the way, no matter whether they are 8k or only 2k like my old 'classics'.

Walton Comer (and also I) are successfully working towards dramatically
reducing the required storage size for tiled 32k virtual textures. Many
people have already managed to even download Walton's original zipped tiles
from Mario's server....The new version will be much smaller, though!

Chris responded in particular also to your incorrect claim (4) that
virtual textures slow Celestia down...(the contrary is true)

I plea that you try to keep your adrenaline a little bit better under
control in the future!

Bye Fridger

[Don. Edwards]

Ah Fridger,
Must we go at this once again? My adrenaline is under complete control thank you very much. As a matter of fact I got quite a giggle out of how you continue to rub people, and me the wrong way.
After my first post on this subject I had a chance to go over everything and I realized my misconceptions about virtual texturing. Just because I didn't write a follow-up comment doesn't mean I haven't seen the light. The main reason I didn't comment was because this was the same time I took my hiatus from the site which I am technically still on and may just stay on after this little escapade is over. Just check the date of the post and my post about bugging out. You will see they were the same day I believe at least for me they were. I have been doing many things while away from Celestia. I have done a great deal of soul-searching and making connections with friends that I lost contact with over the years. Because of the positive changes in my life, I have been in a very positive mood the three weeks. Not even you are going to ruin that. You have shown your true self more than once in this forum to everyone. I am now more convinced than ever that if I met you in person you and I could not be friendly toward one another. Some people just can’t get along and we are two of those people. We see things from two distinctly different points view and they are just never going to be in the same line or focus. So as much as this is going to be a continuing problem between us I will just try my best to keep away from any further comments you make. So in other words I will stay on my side of the sandbox as long as you stay on your side. And as long as any comments made toward me or you are concerned they must remain completely neutral. But I will not tolerate any further SNIPPING from you either. So I think this will just work out fine as long as we stay away from each other as far as the rest forum is concerned. I don't want this to get into another war of words. This could get very ugly and the forum doesn’t need this and I feel I have risen above playing into this activity of yours any further. So as of now I will not slant any post in a negative vain towards you as long as you reciprocate. So let’s just treat each other like we don’t even exist here in the forum and things should just run swimmingly.

Don. Edwards

[Mario]

I would like to add a little something to this discussion by sharing my views as a newbie on the Celestia community (and, as such, probably unbiased).

I am as happy as anyone else in here downloading a 90Mb zipped file. That is to say, I'm not happy at all. However, while I uinderstand Don's comments, I have to say they seem a little oriented towards traditional software development policies in the sense that software must be built for the greater public and any of its features only has a meaning if it can be experienced by everyone. I don't think virtual textures break this thought barrier, since there is nothing stoping a normal user from not downloading them and still benefit from an array of so-called standard textures, most of them with an high degree of quality.

Virtual textures, as I see it, will not replace traditional textures. They are however an amazing learning tool and I can imagine a classroom running Celestia and the teacher changing virtual textures on earth to show to her students the movement of earth's landmasses since its early days. Or a presentation about Mars showing the terraforming possibilities in the future. All this without having to quit Celestia, going to a text editor and changing ssc or dsc files. I think one should not waste this potential.

I do however digress of the notion a virtual texture should top at 32k. It would be useful to build 16k or even 8k max virtual textures, for the same reason one may not want all the detail about... say, a terraformed Mars. However one shall not look at 32k textures as worthless. This very concept is (Don, you have to agree) in the eye of the beholder. Not just for 32k textures but really for anything related ot not. There are certainly people who think it's worthwile to collect bottle caps. 32K textures have a strong audience. As a learning tool, as a NASA learning project, as a lone voyeur dream with some space to spare on his hard drive, even as a technology show... but mainly as a "Celestia can do it. If you need it, you can use it."

I have to say, on my poor GeForce 2 MX, this 32k virtual texture put to shame any 16K textures in terms of perfomance/quality ratio. However, I speak for myself when I say that I will not download all 32k virtual textures there will be, only because they are available. In the end it will always be a personal choice over what I want, what I need, and what I can pack... just like when I go camping.

Walton and Fridger (anyone else?) are doing an excellent job trying to minimize the impact these high quality textures will have on an end-user machine in terms of disk space. And this "end-user" is not necessarily the kid next door. It can be anything; a corporation, a school, a library, an institution....
Added to this, graphics cards, computer processors, storage capacity, backup devices,... all keep progressing in their capabilities. DVD recorders are here today. Tomorow they will be as common and cheap as any CDR. "Tomorow" we may as well be having this same discussion over 64k textures. A few tenths of thousands years ago I would have to pack a crude spear to go camping. Today I have my trusted swiss knive on my backpocket.

Mario

Mario

[t00fri]

... I got quite a giggle out of how you continue to rub people ...the wrong way.

I thought you wanted to stop it !!??

I have done a great deal of soul-searching and making connections with friends that I lost contact with over the years. Because of the positive changes in my life, I have been in a very positive mood the three weeks.

I am very pleased to read this! Why don't you also try to make friends with me again?;-). It's really not so hard... I remember, not soooo long ago, we were on quite good terms. My wife and daughter, at least, think that I am really "smooth":)

Bye Fridger

[bh]

Please guys... let's all work together. Please...

Regards...bh.

[ANDREA]

...Se la vie! Don. Edwards

...in the future! Bye Fridger

Oh my God! Here you are again!
Sincerely I cannot understand the reason for which you two are obliging the other 962 Celestia Forum registered people and the many many hundreds of guests to follow up your continuous bantering each other with such word games.
The truth is that with these debates you are polluting the Celestia spirit, that's a "FRIENDLY" one, and surely the friendliest one in my Internet experience.
If you have personal problems of misunderstanding or unpitiful attention to the other's single written words, sorry, it's your problem, not Celestia people's.
I'm truly disappointed to see how so clever men, like you two are, are wasting their time on these problems, instead of enjoying Celestia for what it gives, a free, widespread, incredibly beautiful way to enjoy Astronomy.

So, please, stop writing in Forum on such themes, you have your private e-mail address, use it!

And, just to give my opinion on Virtual Textures, how long we'll have to wait for the 64k Virtual textures?
Someone will blame me for this hope and suggestion?
Hope not, because I’m neither obliging anyone to follow my madness and /or to produce what I wish, nor I blame who prefers the 1k textures because they are OK for him.
Just for example, Don, in my shows for school children I would like to go from deep space to the Earth, closer and closer and closer, up to see the roof opening of our Frasso Sabino Observatory, with many children around the telescope, saying "Hello" with their hands.
Now it's no more a dream, it's a realty.
Probably I'm one of the very few Celestia people that appreciate and that actually can use this feature, but what's the problem?
The possibility exists anyhow, freely usable or not, as you prefer.
Moreover, while now I have the feeling that who is lucky enough to have a powerful PC and graphic card should feel himself blameworthy for this, we know for sure that in a very short time the 128 Mb graphic memory will be the PCs entry level graphic card, and that the price of e.g. Nvidia GeForce 4600 Ti 128 Mb has dropped down after the availability of FX cards, so now it's available for many more Celestia users than before (I have just seen it at less than 170 US$, and probably it’s available somewhere at even lower prices, and lower and lower next months). About the slow Internet connections, worldwide tendency is to make the ADSL and other speedy connections more and more available at cheeper costs.
And, as I told in a previous message, power is “absolutely” needed to enjoy Celestia in its full capabilities, if one wishes it.

By everybody and, please,

"PEACE in the sky and on the Earth".

Andrea

[t00fri]

bh, ANDREA,

don't worry as concerns myself. See also my offer above to Don before you wrote your posts! It was not meant as a joke...

Actually, my feelings are mostly similar to yours;

admittedly sometimes, I even enjoy a good fight (with words, of course;-)), but I will never tolerate analyses of my character in public by individuals who are neither entitled nor qualified to do so.

Bye Fridger

[Guest]

I've DLed the 8k color VT moon and the 32k VT earth (both on a 56k modem btw) and both are working beautifully. Celestia performance with these hires VTs is way improved over the equivalent single hires textures. So, naturally, I want to make some myself. I figured out the meaning of the .ctx file contents and the naming structure of the files in the VT folder. I'm using a Corel PhotoPaint 9 script to chop up a source file into the tiles. I've built 4k Io test sets (256, 512 or 1024 tile sizes with 2, 3 or 4 level folders) that looks to be an equivalent structure to the first 2, 3 or 4 levels of the 8k moon or 32k earth set. But the tiles don't render. All I see is a black globe with an appropriate number (for the current distance) of white star-shaped splotches marking where the tiles should be. I've tried with jpg, png and dds tiles. All give the same result. In one test I replaced my Io level 2 folder (1024 tile aize) with level 2 from the 8k moon folder and, sure enough, when I get close enough to Io it turns into the moon. I assume this means there is nothing wrong with my .ctx definition file and my problem must be the file format of the tiles. My tiles all have correct sizes and otherwise look fine in any graphics viewer program (well, Irfan view and PhotoPaint at least). So what constraints are there on the tile file format that I haven't deduced? In particularly, what type of DDS files are you guys using? I tried

nvdxt -file *.tga -dxt1c
nvdxt -file *.tga -nomipmap -dxt1c

The second one gives tile file sizes the same as those of the 32k earth set (512 tile size).

Anybody see what I'm doing wrong?

[chris]

Thanks to all involved for creating this 32k virtual texture. I downloaded it last night and have been spending all morning looking at the Earth. Even though I developed the virtual texture code, I feel like this is the first time I've really seen it in action.

There are a couple virtual texture related items I'm working on . . . First of all, there's texture eviction. This will prevent Celestia's memory footprint from growing indefinitely The 32k virtual texture provides an excellent way to test various eviction algorithms.

Another feature that seems important is a level of detail that changes based on the distance of the tile from the camera. Right now, I just calculate the distance from the camera to the surface of the planet and use that to compute a level of detail that applies to all tiles. However, tiles near the horizon may be significantly further away if the camera is close to the planet surface. By using lower resolution textures near the horizon, fewer tiles will be loaded. Also, it will help to mitigate the ugly aliasing ('sparkling') near the horizon, which is a result of using unmipmapped textures.

As for even larger textures, I think we'll have to wait for the Blue Marble people to produce an even bigger map, at least for global coverage. For selected areas of high-detail, we should be able to use existing satellite imagery, though some editing will be required to make it blend in with the Blue Marble texture.

--Chris

[t00fri]

A new, much faster version of my tiling script virtualtex 1.03 is now available for download:
http://www.shatters.net/~t00fri/virtualtex

I have just generated a full new 16k set of small, 256x256 earth normalmap tiles. together with Walton's smallish 512x512 32k main texture tiles the zoom smoothness is considerably improved with my machine compared to my original 2kx2k tile sets!

To do the 32k normal map tiles, I have to wait until my new very fast, 120 GB Maxtor Diamond Max plus 9, Ultra ATA 133 harddisk with 8MB cache arrives.

For people interested in tech specs:
Min-max r/w transfer rates are between 38Mb/sec (!) and 53.4MB/sec (!) and the burst performance 108MB/sec (small files) is particularly fast. Access time is 9ms. Almost not to be heard (fluid suspension), 3 years warranty, which is sort of rare in these days ...We'll see when it's there...

Bye Fridger

[bh]

mmm... I'm wondering if we can get a 'vitual texture' spec map. I'm thinking of course about my idea for introducing waves, see pic:


Of course it would need a lot denser noise pattern...could or would this work? Or am I nuts?

Regards...bh.

[t00fri]

mmm... I'm wondering if we can get a 'vitual texture' spec map. I'm thinking of course about my idea for introducing waves, see pic:
...
Of course it would need a lot denser noise pattern...could or would this work? Or am I nuts?

Regards...bh.

bh,

a virtual spec map is no problem, but it is just black (non-reflective land) and white (totally reflective sea).

I found some nice dunes (in Tibet) on the 32k texture. Dunes and water waves...not too different.

Bye Fridger

[bh]

Great...let's get on it! I made a 4k 'waves' spec map, but it's way too corse (spelling?).

I think it would be a nice way to make the water a bit dynamic.

I would have a go myself but my photoshop plug-in has stopped working for 8k. Tiles might be a different matter however.

I will give it some thought.

Regards...bh.

[Guest]

Hi all,
Thanks very much for the Blue Marble, fantastic, I actually found Ayers Rock! 90mb file?I only have a dial-up, best speed is about 5.1k, but no problem if you get a download manager , I use a free one- Star- works well and will resume a part download, so I dont worry when I'm kicked off after 2 hours. Taking up too much room? It's all relative, I just uninstalled a useless media player taking up 40mb, my sons games all take up a lot of space too ie-minicar racing 332mb. My Celestia is currently 600mb which I dont begrudge for the pleasure it brings.You can always save the zip files to a cd and take it off the hard drive, it doesnt take that much to do. Anyway, thanks again guys. I too am bored of the "snipping", the last word isnt that much of a prize, who else cares? Debate yes, but spare us the rest.
regards james.

[DJ_Night]

Greetings...

Great work Walton... keep up the good work,

Any future plans on releasing a single 32k Earth texture release?

Virtual Textures runs very smooth even on LowEnd systems and looks impressive when zoomed in, But the among of details when zoomed out are low and looks blurry ~unmipmapped textures/high bias, but thats not a big issue, the main thing is that virtual texture code works great on celestia and runs smooth. looking forward to future celestia beta versions.

Mario >> impressive server Bandwidth =) , ~1GB/day at least I guess,

t00fri/Fridger>> Any plans on updating your Texture Foundry website and upload your new work? 8/16k NormalMaps, new 16k textures and etc. plz share your good work when you got time =)

cheers..

[wcomer]

Hi folks,

Several people have pointed out that there is a bit of blur as you change altitude between level loads. There is a very simple solution. Go into the .ctx file and change the line which reads:

Code: Select all

        TileSize 512

to

Code: Select all

        TileSize 256

This will cause the tiles to load more quickly than they would have otherwise. Now when you run Celesita you may notice a slight performance hit because Celestia will be trying to load four times as many files as before. But the tradeoff is that there will be almost no blurring when you change altitudes (if you still find the slight blurring unacceptable go with "TileSize 128".) I recommend everyone give it a try it is truly SUPERIOR to before. For me it is almost as good as going from 16k to 32k resolution.

Chris, you should consider working this into the virtual texture engine. Rather than loading tiles when the next level is 1-to-1 with the screen pixels, load them when the current level is 1-to-1 with the screen pixels.

cheers,
Walton

[JackHiggins]

I just downloaded everything up to level 4- 2 words:

ABSOLUTELY FAN-TASTIC!!

If 16k looks this good, I can't wait for the final 32k version with the oceans taken out...!!! The full 32k would take way too long to download at the moment with my rubbish dialup connection. But I digress...

It looks really brilliant. I like how antarctica isn't "pinched" as it was before- and I love the detail on the montain ranges in asia & south america.

Thanks for the info on changing the time when the tiles change, Walton, that was one of the things I was wondering about. Does it have to be 256 or 512, or could I have something like 350 if I wanted..?

Anyone interested in making a virtual texture specmap...?! A 32k virtual texture nightmap would be nice too! Nah that's too much for me at the moment... This 16k earth on it's own is enough for the moment!!

[bh]

Jack...I thought this was a 32k texture, no?

See my previous post about adding spec map and night side lights.

Regards...bh.