Celestia 1.7.0 Development Thread

[john71]

I don't believe that a WELL KNOWN software like this can't sustain itself financially.

You should ask Elon Musk, I bet he used it. I'm dead serious.

It is not a programming, but a management and business issue.

You should try community financing and after that you can PAY for Windows development.

Please try Patreon.

https://www.patreon.com/

Added after 13 minutes 29 seconds:
I'm sure Chris Laurel would be able to organize the Patreon financing.

[Art Blos]

Yesterday I spent the whole evening to fix localization bug with windows native UI.

So far the fixes have worked only for the QT version. At the same time, x86 and x64 for some reason compiled under different versions of QT (v.5 works, but v.6 gives an error).

The actual fix is just one line of code. But I spent the whole evening because I'm not a windows user, I'm not a windows developer.

When working with Origin, I can often solve a problem for weeks that required the replacement of two lines. It's strange, why I don't quit my project after that? Also, in 2018 everyone was expecting you to take charge of Celestia as a entirely, no matter what system it was developed for.

So I decided that it's enough for me to try to keep this port up-to-date and now I announce that Windows OS is not supported any more. No new features, no bugfixes.

75% of the world's users cannot be ignored. Otherwise, Celestia will die even faster.

The revived Celestia is 5 years old, but we have 0 (zero) windows maintainers. For me it means that windows users are not interested in developing Celestia, so why should we care about them?

user != developer.
Most likely, programmers become developers of Celestia, than users of Celestia become programmers for the sake of developing it.
In my team also not programmers (anyway, who could figure out the simulator's code). But we need Celestia for Windows. Very needed.

[john71]

Most likely, programmers become developers of Celestia, than users of Celestia become programmers for the sake of developing it.

If Chris Laurel can collect rich Patreon dollars from the US, he can hire Windows developers for example from India to do the programming work at a low cost.

I don't think that a simple Windows programming help would be THAT expensive.

[Anthony_B_Russo10]

Honestly, cutting off any type of Windows support is a really bad idea due to the fact that Windows is the most commonly used OS and doing so would also cause problems the project due to the amount of Windows users there are.

Added after 8 minutes 15 seconds:

Please try Patreon.

https://www.patreon.com/

John71, there is a Celestia Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/celestiamobi

[TheLostProbe]

Yesterday I spent the whole evening to fix localization bug with windows native UI. The actual fix is just one line of code. But I spent the whole evening because I'm not a windows user, I'm not a windows developer. So I decided that it's enough for me to try to keep this port up-to-date and now I announce that Windows OS is not supported any more. No new features, no bugfixes. Only CI builds will be made to ensure that the code can be compiled.

The revived Celestia is 5 years old, but we have 0 (zero) windows maintainers. For me it means that windows users are not interested in developing Celestia, so why should we care about them?

this is quite frankly just completely stupid. windows is THE most popular operating system to date, and it is not going to change in the near future, or perhaps even at all. celestia was and still is struggling to stay relevant; dropping support for the most widely used operating system isn't going to help that for god's sake. it's just going to rub more salt in the wounds. just because you're not a windows developer, doesn't mean you should just give up on the windows version of celestia entirely.

celestia is barely known, and those who do know it exists, as in the ones who have barely used it and aren't part of the community, think it's crap and outdated. it isn't, it's just there are other programs that can do similar things like openspace and space engine that get more praise and attention mostly for having pretty visuals and all that shit. this is why no-one has come along to help this project so far. and no, chris most likely isn't coming back. i can message him on twitter and ask him about this and if he is willing to help, but i really doubt it.

i can guarantee that 99.9% of celestia's users are NOT developers and a portion of those are likely NOT interested in becoming one. i'm part of the 0.1% that wants to join the project and help it flourish. i didn't start a C++ course just to fiddle around making stupid programs, i started so i could assist you in the development of this project.

if you want more developers, which i can assure you we all want celestia to have more developers, i would STRONGLY RECOMMEND giving the twitter account (@CelestiaProject) to someone in this community with the time and knowledge. i am on twitter daily, so i would be glad to run the twitter account. additionally, a youtube channel and an official celestia patreon that isnt the one at patreon.com/celestiamobi, because that one is supposed to be used to fund levin so he can keep celestia.mobi online, would be brilliant. something like patreon.com/celestia for the patreon. this will increase our social media presence, drawing more and more people into the community, including potential developers.

so please, hleb, i ask that you stop this nonsense and keep developing for this project. [off-topic removed]

[TheLostProbe]

i should apologize for what i wrote. the message above that i wrote was wrongly written, offensive, and inflammatory. i did not properly discuss the issue at hand and took it completely out of line on the last paragraph. i did not correctly understand your frustration with not being a windows developer and having to develop for windows. i discussed political topics and wrote a metaphor that is definitely offensive and poorly written. i can almost certainly guess that i would have made hleb feel like shit by posting that message and pretty much saying "all hleb's decisions are bad and that's why this one is bad". i do not believe this, i just poorly worded everything. an absolutely tiny select few of hleb's decisions are negative, that's it. if i were to try to count how many were bad decisions, it would be a single-digit number, most likely under 5. i did not have a level mind when writing that message and look where it got me.

hleb, i'm sorry. please forgive me.

[john71]

I think it is clear, that the developers have to raise more money and more awareness.

This is the only way.

Maybe the software engineering and the marketing/community/fund raising side of Celestia should be separated.

We can't let this ingenious software die.

[Art Blos]

Since such a topic has come up, I think the time has come to reveal the bitter truth.

The Celestia Origin team more and more clearly sees the "iceberg" right ahead. April 30, 2023 we were going to publish a new 14th release. But if version 1.7.0 does not stabilize by the scheduled date, we will again have to postpone everything. We have already allowed ourselves a delay of 1.5 years instead of the "standard" four and six months. In the six years of the project's existence, we have never allowed ourselves such a thing.

Many people on our team, and outside of it, asked me to "migrate" to 1.7.0, which I did not dare for a long time. The global plan was based on hope that while we will build trajectories enough time will pass to beta 1.7.0 turn into final. Alas, we have never been so wrong...

In version 1.7.0 for Windows localization still does not work. While on other systems (Linux, Mac) everything works correctly (however, I can't check it personally). We cannot switch to the platform without the possibility of using our native Russian language, after all, the total localization of content is our most important achievement. And we can't stay on version 1.6.2, because the created textual XYZV-trajectories will be too heavy for it. We are literally stuck between two worlds!

So we asked Gleb to solve this problem. But unfortunately now only the QT version works with other languages. The native interface is still in English as of December 26th. Not to mention about lack of daylight for planets on laptops with integrated video cards, what I didn't know before. I hope this is a bug, and not a tightening of system requirements.

So we are all in the same boat. Either we cooperate or we go back to 2018 year. Such a pessimistic attitude of our chief programmer is detrimental to the entire community.

[Trolligi 112477]

Pretty sure that TheLostProbe as well as nussun are aspiring to become Celestia devs, and they are both Windows users

[Art Blos]

Pretty sure that TheLostProbe as well as nussun are aspiring to become Celestia devs, and they are both Windows users

Much worse that Markers, who works on Windows and develops his branch for the Windows Store, does not want to help when asked. I don't know how he and Gleb interact with each other.

[john71]

Markers, who works on Windows and develops his branch for the Windows Store,

Are you serious? Markerz hijacked the Windows version of Celestia?

With a Patreon page?

Then what are we?

What are this site and forum all about?

[Anthony_B_Russo10]

Are you serious? Markerz hijacked the Windows version of Celestia?

Markerz is the maintainer for the mobile versions of Celestia, and the Patreon was made to help incase he ever need extra money to cover fiancees for Celestia.mobi.

[Art Blos]

Are you serious? Markerz hijacked the Windows version of Celestia?

I assumed everyone knew about it. But why hijacked?

https://apps.microsoft.com/store/detail/celestia/9PF9PHRTKW3Q?hl=en-us&gl=us
https://github.com/levinli303/CelestiaUWP

Added after 7 minutes 52 seconds:
Just in case:
Markerz = Linfeng Li = levinli303

[john71]

But why hijacked?

1.) He has the Patreon page=the financing.

2.) Only he can continue the Windows version.

3.) He has the Android version under control.

What is the purpose of the other developers?

Making a FORTRAN or a BASIC version?

Or are they the subcontractors of Markerz?

[Art Blos]

Or are they the subcontractors of Markerz?

It's more like the developers work independently of each other. This is our main problem.

[Gurren Lagann]

Pretty sure that TheLostProbe as well as nussun are aspiring to become Celestia devs, and they are both Windows users

Plus i did code a bit in the past in a dev-authorised¹ fan version, tinkering with Celestia's code limits and small, miniscule improvements. Now the question is if i would have enough dedication for that. (Since i'm a middle-schooler...)

"We don't have Win devs" when we have TLP and Nussun as future candidates, Markerz as mobile and kinda Win dev, and Cartrite as a former dev but abandoned due to negligence. I honestly refuse to die on this apparent Windows-less Celestia bleak future with such negligence to our future talents.

¹actually it was more like asking the devs if i could do this fan version but still applies.

[onetwothree]

Please try Patreon.

I won't. If windows users want windows version they can make fundraising and hire somebody to work with windows interface. Or they can donate to Markerz, he not so long ago created a new windows UI but working under win10 and 11 only.

At the same time, x86 and x64 for some reason compiled under different versions of QT (v.5 works, but v.6 gives an error).

I missed that both builds will use the same archive file name so they randomly overwrite each other. And Qt6 installation is broken now because windeployqt wasn't run.

When working with Origin, I can often solve a problem for weeks that required the replacement of two lines. It's strange, why I don't quit my project after that?

Because that's your project. Windows/macOS UI is not mine. I'm a Unix user, so I care only about things I use and can test myself. I can perform some tests under wine, but I can't develop using it. And actually I don't want to do this. I develop Celestia for fun and I don't want this became an obligation.

user != developer.
Most likely, programmers become developers of Celestia, than users of Celestia become programmers for the sake of developing it.

I was a mere user and translator, but I became a developer because I wanted to fix one nasty bug in GTK+ interface. Why windows users can't do the same?

just because you're not a windows developer, doesn't mean you should just give up on the windows version of celestia entirely.

No, it does. Celestia initially was a windows-only application but once one guy ported in OSX and another one to Unix. When it was revived by Alexell it still was possible to build it for Unix but the support was in terrible state. But then I joined and made Unix support a 1st class citizen. Then with LukeCel support I make it compile for macOS and later Markerz became a macOS maintainer. For Windows port we only had an short time help from Janus and one guy from github. So as you can see Unix and macOS are supported only because there people who want to spend some time on this. That's our own time that's not our job. So we are not obligated to support anything else. Especially taking into account amount of work to be done (move UI into a separate thread, support HiDPI screens).

if you want more developers, which i can assure you we all want celestia to have more developers, i would STRONGLY RECOMMEND giving the twitter account (@CelestiaProject) to someone in this community with the time and knowledge.

I remember there is a way to post on behalf of another account but I don't remember how it's called. If you find it I can add you as an editor. Once we tried to do this with somebody but unsuccessfully,

Update: I was talking about https://tweetdeck.twitter.com/. Send me your tw name.

Many people on our team, and outside of it, asked me to "migrate" to 1.7.0, which I did not dare for a long time. The global plan was based on hope that while we will build trajectories enough time will pass to beta 1.7.0 turn into final. Alas, we have never been so wrong...

I'm sorry but instability and bugs are not 1st class problems I have to care about for the last two years. Maybe if I were a EU/USA/Japan/other democratic state citizen I would be able to distract and read several books on 3D programing and stuff. But I'm belarusian who had to leave his country with just a suitcase in his hands.

In version 1.7.0 for Windows localization still does not work.

It does. I wrote this 2 days ago in discord in our private server.

Spoiler

And we can't stay on version 1.6.2, because the created textual XYZV-trajectories will be too heavy for it.

1.6.2 can work with binary xyzv files, it just needs both text and binary files.

Not to mention about lack of daylight for planets on laptops with integrated video cards, what I didn't know before.

This is a kind of problem which can be solved only by a person with windows. We need to run an opengl debugger to understand what's wrong. My laptop has an integrated intel video and everything works fine.

Either we cooperate or we go back to 2018 year.

I waiting for volunteers to run vogl or another windows-based gl debugger.

[john71]

If windows users want windows version they can make fundraising and hire somebody to work with windows interface.

Maybe Windows users should have a separate subforum here. We have unique problems and experiences, it seems.

[TheLostProbe]

"We don't have Win devs" when we have TLP and Nussun as future candidates, Markerz as mobile and kinda Win dev, and Cartrite as a former dev but abandoned due to negligence

we also have ajtribick who is currently thinking about re-joining the dev team i believe? chris is also an option but i don't think he has touched windows development in years (he mainly focuses on iOS now), and the chances of him helping are low but still not impossible.

Not to mention about lack of daylight for planets on laptops with integrated video cards, what I didn't know before. I hope this is a bug, and not a tightening of system requirements

if i recall correctly this is a bug with 32-bit, see issue #1320.

Are you serious? Markerz hijacked the Windows version of Celestia?

this couldn't possibly be further from the truth. the microsoft store version of celestia was made with the intention of integrating the Universal Windows Platform (or UWP) into celestia. UWP was made so an app made with UWP could run on a multitude of windows or windows-based microsoft devices, without the program having to be rewritten for each. yes, that does mean you can run celestia on an xbox. it also brought windows 10's Fluent design language into more developers' hands, which levin implemented into this version of celestia:

he didn't hijack it. it's just another slightly different variant of celestia.

I was a mere user and translator, but I became a developer because I wanted to fix one nasty bug in GTK+ interface. Why windows users can't do the same?

i can do the same. i'm only learning C++ for the purpose of contributing to this project, because i know and i can see that it needs more support.

No, it does. Celestia initially was a windows-only application but once one guy ported in OSX and another one to Unix. When it was revived by Alexell it still was possible to build it for Unix but the support was in terrible state. But then I joined and made Unix support a 1st class citizen. Then with LukeCel support I make it compile for macOS and later Markerz became a macOS maintainer. For Windows port we only had an short time help from Janus and one guy from github. So as you can see Unix and macOS are supported only because there people who want to spend some time on this. That's our own time that's not our job. So we are not obligated to support anything else. Especially taking into account amount of work to be done (move UI into a separate thread, support HiDPI screens).

this is what i didn't understand while i was writing that message you quoted. i wasn't thinking straight. i apologise and i can see your frustration now.

Send me your tw name

@thelostprobe
how does this work exactly? is it like if i tweet on my account it tweets on the @CelestiaProject account? or something different? i ask because i don't think it would be ideal for my personal tweets to be visible on the @CelestiaProject account...
looking up tweetdeck on google, it says it's a "dashboard for managing twitter accounts", so i'm gonna infer from that that i get complete access to the account as opposed to what i said before

Maybe Windows users should have a separate subforum here. We have unique problems and experiences, it seems.

no point. it would just be better to state that you are running windows instead of posting it in a specialized thread. besides, the github is used way more frequently for bug reports than the forums

[Art Blos]

I missed that both builds will use the same archive file name so they randomly overwrite each other. And Qt6 installation is broken now because windeployqt wasn't run.

Then just leave support for version 5 and don't use 6. That will be enough.

Because that's your project. Windows/macOS UI is not mine.

You are mixing concepts of "project" and "operating system" on which this project runs. I also never used Unix and MacOS, all my life I have been working with Windows. But over time I found out that Origin interested users of alternative systems. And instead of ignoring them, I asked for help. As a result, I found a person (and not one) who helps me with this. Celestia Origin became cross-platform and I really appreciate being able to share the results with everyone. What stopped you from asking for help earlier? Instead of spoiling everyone's New Year's mood.

And actually I don't want to do this. I develop Celestia for fun and I don't want this became an obligation.

And this is impossible. Don't you understand yet? "For fun" you gave hope to thousands users of Celestia in 2018 year? No, these actions are in any case made with some obligations. This applies to my project too. From the very beginning I understood that "for fun" would be secondary. I led the people, I co-operated their strengths and capabilities. And now I can't just drop everything and send everyone to hell.

I was a mere user and translator, but I became a developer because I wanted to fix one nasty bug in GTK+ interface. Why windows users can't do the same?

So what? I'm just a system administrator in one of the Russian schools. And I'm not a programmer, I don't have a mathematical mindset. But I have enthusiasm and understanding that everything I do is necessary not only for me. What I could fix myself - I fixed. If I couldn't myself - I asked for help. It's very simple. Communicated with people, and I found support. And I did not wait until someone guessed that my project needed help.

So as you can see Unix and macOS are supported only because there people who want to spend some time on this.

I am sure that there are enthusiasts among Windows users. But they need to be made aware that we need them.

That's our own time that's not our job. So we are not obligated to support anything else.

Depending on what you put in the concept of "job". There is job for money, and there is job for the soul and a sense of duty.

I'm sorry but instability and bugs are not 1st class problems I have to care about for the last two years. Maybe if I were a EU/USA/Japan/other democratic state citizen I would be able to distract and read several books on 3D programing and stuff. But I'm belarusian who had to leave his country with just a suitcase in his hands.

I don't want to get into politics. Let me just say that emigration did not prevent further correction of errors in the Unix version, including graphic ones. So it can't really be considered as an argument.

It does. I wrote this 2 days ago in discord in our private server.

Unfortunately no. I have seen your posts and we have been testing the new version. Localization still works incorrectly in the native interface. And this "red cross" instead of a icon and this strange letters "B"...

1.6.2 can work with binary xyzv files, it just needs both text and binary files.

Text files should not be left in any form. In addition, there are a lot of other advantages in 1.7.0 that we cannot refuse.

if i recall correctly this is a bug with 32-bit, see issue #1320.

Okay, thanks for the info.