Another Celestia Discord

[SevenSpheres]

Update: See this post. The last paragraph here still applies.

Since March, Celestia has had a Discord server. If you don't know what Discord is, it's a real-time chat like IRC; it also supports formatting with Markdown, just like GitHub. However, IMO the official Discord has two problems, so I've made another one.

https://discord.gg/KPJC8nq

First, the server, like the forum, is owned by Alexell, who very rarely responds to user requests. Among other things, Askaniy has created a bot to translate Russian to English, but due to Alexell being unresponsive it wasn't added. (I've already added the bot on the Other Discord.) Now this could be solved by asking Alexell to transfer ownership of the server to Lafuente_Astronomy (the admin), but I think the chances of him actually doing so are low...and there's also the second point.

The second problem has to do with nussun, a trans girl. The server admin, Lafuente_Astronomy, has repeatedly misgendered her (called her by male pronouns). Also, another member (not naming any names, but not Lafuente, and not me) made her feel like she wasn't welcome, causing her to leave the server. I invited her back, and then Lafuente kicked her out of the server. He apparently sent her this:

My response to that (in DM to nussun) was:

...that really makes no sense. "[REDACTED] is making you feel like you shouldn't be here, so...you shouldn't be here!"

The Other Discord is meant to be a welcoming, inclusive space.

The forum and the Motherlode have their own problems, and are kinda dead because of them, but there's nothing I can do about that. I can't make a new forum, I can't make a new Motherlode, but I can make a new Discord.

My only real concern here is that this could split the community like Celestial Matters did, and I'm not sure whether the two reasons for creating this server outweigh that. I'd like to know what everyone thinks about this.

I'd also like for everyone who hasn't yet joined either Discord to do so, including anyone who hasn't yet made an account on the forum (remember, I was like you just a few months ago!) Celestia needs as many contributors as it can get!

[Sirius_Alpha]

Hi, Redacted here.

The point about the discord's owner having sailed off the edge of the earth and being effectively unreachable is a very strong argument.

As for the user nussun, she is a problematic individual who spent much of her interaction with the discord creating problems and making many other individuals furious. When she was kicked, it was for the most part seen as a positive action. I will not name names for now as well out of the same sentiment, but there are numerous members of the discord who were glad she was removed, and are glad she is gone.

I feel like some of this should have been avoided if Lafuente had been more willing to (permanently) kick disruptive individuals rather than let their presence stew, fester and percolate.

Celestia needs as many contributors as it can get!

Absolutely. But at this point the conversation is pushed beyond any relevance to nussun. She was not a contributor, and her presence only served to lower the signal-to-noise of the discord. Creating a welcoming environment means expelling members whose presence are intolerable to others.

Nussun's misgendering is something that annoyed me and something that, despite my concerns with her presence, I fought against. Ultimately that's a battle that you and I are in a minority in, in this social circle.

So if you want to create a discord that allows in problematic, disruptive individuals, that will not be a place where high-quality conversation and work will get done. If you want to create a discord where basic human decency with regards to respecting people's gender identities is upheld, that's a noble goal, though an uphill battle here.

I'm curious to hear other's opinions.

[SevenSpheres]

Hi, Redacted here.

Sorry about that, I wasn't sure if I should let everyone know who you were.

As for the user nussun, she is a problematic individual who spent much of her interaction with the discord creating problems and making many other individuals furious. When she was kicked, it was for the most part seen as a positive action. I will not name names for now as well out of the same sentiment, but there are numerous members of the discord who were glad she was removed, and are glad she is gone.

To be clear I'm not referring to what happened months ago (which was done for a valid reason), I'm referring to what happened yesterday (which was done for an apparently nonsensical reason, as you can see in the screenshot). Besides, I think nussun has gotten better (and was never really as bad as [also redacted - Discord members will know who I mean]).

Absolutely. But at this point the conversation is pushed beyond any relevance to nussun. She was not a contributor, and her presence only served to lower the signal-to-noise of the discord. Creating a welcoming environment means expelling members whose presence are intolerable to others.

Yeah, at that point I'm referring to anyone who hasn't made an account. Nussun did make that large stars addon though.

[Lafuente_Astronomy]

First off, how did you get to my DM's I thought it was a private thing no one but the person and the person he/she's messaging can see? If so, this is an invasion of privacy, and however you did it, I'd like you to stop doing it now. With regards to the contents of the DM, I am concerned for nussun's emotional health, since nussun left the server due to the Redacted member. That being said, nussun is still on the forum, so nussun will see this.

Second, I actually have a backup discord server where I'm the server owner but it's only for an emergency should the main discord be deleted or infect in some way or another. If you want that the backup be the main one, you may. But it would be better to just remain on the main server and continue from there. I'll try to contact Alexell for server transfer but mostly likely the reaction will be negative.

Now, let me address some things:

The Other Discord is meant to be a welcoming, inclusive space.

Agreed. That's what I'm trying to do, and I know the mods are doing so as well. If we are misgendering, it's because we refer to the biological gender. However, we will try to do less of that if possible. If you want, let me make you a mod so that there could be more help.

The forum and the Motherlode have their own problems, and are kinda dead because of them, but there's nothing I can do about that. I can't make a new forum, I can't make a new Motherlode, but I can make a new Discord.

I would suggest that your discord be another backup discord for the main one so that we have another contingency. Also, give me and the mods and invite.

My only real concern here is that this could split the community like Celestial Matters did, and I'm not sure whether the two reasons for creating this server outweigh that. I'd like to know what everyone thinks about this.

As far as I'm concerned, there will be no civil war. But the repercussions of making an extra server could put more strain and make others think we have been fighting a civil war wherein fact, we are not.

I'd also like for everyone who hasn't yet joined either Discord to do so, including anyone who hasn't yet made an account on the forum (remember, I was like you just a few months ago!) Celestia needs as many contributors as it can get!

I agree. Encourage them to go to the server, and continue their conversations here. But I think that may be why we are making the forum empty now. So, we must also prioritize balance.

Hi, Redacted here.

The point about the discord's owner having sailed off the edge of the earth and being effectively unreachable is a very strong argument.

As for the user nussun, she is a problematic individual who spent much of her interaction with the discord creating problems and making many other individuals furious. When she was kicked, it was for the most part seen as a positive action. I will not name names for now as well out of the same sentiment, but there are numerous members of the discord who were glad she was removed, and are glad she is gone.

I feel like some of this should have been avoided if Lafuente had been more willing to (permanently) kick disruptive individuals rather than let their presence stew, fester and percolate.

Celestia needs as many contributors as it can get!

Absolutely. But at this point the conversation is pushed beyond any relevance to nussun. She was not a contributor, and her presence only served to lower the signal-to-noise of the discord. Creating a welcoming environment means expelling members whose presence are intolerable to others.

Nussun's misgendering is something that annoyed me and something that, despite my concerns with her presence, I fought against. Ultimately that's a battle that you and I are in a minority in, in this social circle.

So if you want to create a discord that allows in problematic, disruptive individuals, that will not be a place where high-quality conversation and work will get done. If you want to create a discord where basic human decency with regards to respecting people's gender identities is upheld, that's a noble goal, though an uphill battle here.

I'm curious to hear other's opinions.

Nussun, in my opinion, may have been annoying in her first tenure. But when he returned, she appeared to be more behaved and careful about breaking the laws(And perhaps it's because of the "Probation" status that I gave her, which is still a benefit, because once she gets out of Probation, she can in theory, be a better member). And she only left because she got berated for deleting her messages on how to add a gender icon to her username, which I should have answered, so I consider everything that followed that my fault. In retrospect however, you should not have been too harsh on her just for deleting messages. It was because of you that she left. Even if others didn't like her, they probably wouldn't have pushed her off. However, that's just what I thought I saw based on the reactions in the messages

Overall, we do not want any infighting but this is very concerning for all of us, since we have different views on what is "welcoming, inclusive space" I'd await your responses, as well as any others who have just read this

Added after 3 minutes 54 seconds:

Besides, I think nussun has gotten better (and was never really as bad as [also redacted - Discord members will know who I mean]).

Exactly. That's what I meant. I just think some people just can't let that go for some reason

[SevenSpheres]

First off, how did you get to my DM's I thought it was a private thing no one but the person and the person he/she's messaging can see? If so, this is an invasion of privacy, and however you did it, I'd like you to stop doing it now. With regards to the contents of the DM, I am concerned for nussun's emotional health, since nussun left the server due to the Redacted member. That being said, nussun is still on the forum, so nussun will see this.

Nussun sent it to me through DM, I thought I had made that clear. Also, how on any Earth would kicking her from the server improve her emotional health?

If we are misgendering, it'sbecause we refer to the biological gender.

There is a difference between biological sex and gender identity.

I would suggest that your discord be another backup discord for the main one so that we have another contingency. Also, give me and the mods and invite.

The invite is right there in big bold text in the OP.

[Lafuente_Astronomy]

The invite is right there in big bold text in the OP.

Gotcha. Your discord has a better format that the official one. If only there was an option to merge servers. But I don't think Alexell will like that one

Added after 4 minutes 10 seconds:
Also, nope. No merging of servers. However, we can find other ways

[Anthony_B_Russo10]

From everything I saw, nussan was just trolling the server and the gender thing annoyed many people like me, Sirus_Alpha. It was good thing when nussan was kicked, but it would have greatly helped if nussan was banned.

I agree with Sirus_Alpha with that nussan was not a Celestia contributer, unlike MrSpace32 who was, but when he had problems, he left, nussan just continued to annoy the server.

Nussan also refused to do any research and instead tried to force it on others in the server.

There was also this which pointed out nussan wasn't serious about the community.

nussan.png (5.46 KiB) Viewed 12087 times

And various other things like this.

Added after 1 minute:
Plus, this is a very dividing issue for the community.

[Lafuente_Astronomy]

From everything I saw, nussan was just trolling the server and the gender thing annoyed many people like me, Sirus_Alpha. It was good thing when nussan was kicked, but it would have greatly helped if nussan was banned.

I agree with Sirus_Alpha with that nussan was not a Celestia contributer, unlike MrSpace32 who was, but when he had problems, he left, nussan just continued to annoy the server.

Nussan also refused to do any research and instead tried to force it on others in the server.

There was also this which pointed out nussan wasn't serious about the community.

And various other things like this.

Oh yeah, the profile pic things actually got to the point I told him to "just stick to the real you"

But the worse one for me is that at one point, he was "lesbian tree".

Either way, PlanetKid did left but not without attacking other members as well. The Astronomer can attest to that

[SevenSpheres]

From everything I saw, nussan was just trolling the server and the gender thing annoyed many people like me, Sirus_Alpha. It was good thing when nussan was kicked, but it would have greatly helped if nussan was banned.

Are you seriously equating being transgender with trolling?

I agree with Sirus_Alpha with that nussan was not a Celestia contributer, unlike MrSpace32 who was, but when he had problems, he left, nussan just continued to annoy the server.

We shouldn't treat people differently based on whether or not they've made addons. There are many members who haven't made any addons but are still valuable contributors.

There was also this which pointed out nussan wasn't serious about the community.
<"Black Hole-chan" picture>

Honestly I don't see how that's different from my "Ultra-Cool Dwarf" tagline, though the constant name changes were annoying.

[Lafuente_Astronomy]

Are you seriously equating being transgender with trolling?

Maybe she is that person, though he rubbed off some people, so they concluded she was a troll. Also, it's the internet, we're not sure if nussun is truly transgender until we have more evidence from her

We shouldn't treat people differently based on whether or not they've made addons. There are many members who haven't made any addons but are still valuable contributors.

Agreed. However, Antohony probably meant addon contributions. The clarification should be that anyone who converses in the discord is a contributor enough, just not an addon contributor. That being said, majority of our members are inactive and have't said a single word eversince they joined the server. I'm contemplating on how to deal with that

Honestly I don't see how that's different from my "Ultra-Cool Dwarf" tagline, though the constant name changes were annoying.

The profile picture changes were annoying. If it weren't for the magenta color I used for the Probation Status, I could have sworn that lesbian tree or Black Hole Chan are different members, and not names made by Nussun

[SevenSpheres]

Maybe she is that person, though he rubbed off some people, so they concluded she was a troll. Also, it's the internet, we're not sure if nussun is truly transgender until we have more evidence from her

Based on DMs I'm 99% sure she's being honest about who she is.

The profile picture changes were annoying. If it weren't for the magenta color I used for the Probation Status, I could have sworn that lesbian tree or Black Hole Chan are different members, and not names made by Nussun

True enough, but it seemed like Anthony was referring to the "silliness" of it.

[Anthony_B_Russo10]

Are you seriously equating being transgender with trolling?

No

We shouldn't treat people differently based on whether or not they've made addons. There are many members who haven't made any addons but are still valuable contributors.

Contributer means that they will actually want to help further the program and its goals, something nussan wasn't really doing.

Either way, PlanetKid did left but not without attacking other members as well. The Astronomer can attest to that

Yeah

[SevenSpheres]

Oh yeah, the profile pic things actually got to the point I told him to "just stick to the real you"

The irony here is just...

Are you seriously equating being transgender with trolling?

No

You really need to pay more attention to what you write, Anthony. It's often unclear or even incomprehensible.
"nussan was just trolling the server and the gender thing annoyed many people like me"...apparently isn't what you meant.

Anyway, back on topic: Lafuente suggested making the new server the official one because of the ownership issue. What does everyone think about that?

[Lafuente_Astronomy]

Anyway, back on topic: Lafuente suggested making this new server the official one because of the ownership issue. What does everyone think?

I suggest that there BE TWO CELESTIA SERVERS. The one by SevenSpheres is for messaging and chatting for members, while the original one is for more technical aspects of Celestia, like Development and Addon Contribution. However, the original messaging channels will remain, just repurposed

[Anthony_B_Russo10]

There is the point of we could use a backup server.

[Lafuente_Astronomy]

There is the point of we could use a backup server.

That makes sense so much I planned it ahead of time. But we have to somehow find a place of balance for these 2 servers. Because the "backup" in question is a server I made some time ago.

[Anthony_B_Russo10]

This something the entire community would have to weigh in on to get a good decision.

[Lafuente_Astronomy]

This something the entire community would have to weigh in on to get a good decision.

Agreed. That was a sudden action after all. I'd wait for the general consensus

[LukeCEL]

Apologies for being off-topic. Can someone reiterate why there is a Discord in addition to the Celestia Forums? Is there a problem with the Celestia Forums that makes it less used than the Discord?

I've always held off on creating a Discord account because personally, I hate signing up for new things. However, I am considering joining given that it seems to be way more active than the forums. That being said, by no means do I think the forums should just die.

[Anthony_B_Russo10]

You should.