PlutonianEmpire's Circumbinary Reporting Thread

General physics and astronomy discussions not directly related to Celestia
Avatar
Topic author
PlutonianEmpire M
Posts: 1374
Joined: 09.09.2004
Age: 39
With us: 20 years 1 month
Location: MinneSNOWta
Contact:

PlutonianEmpire's Circumbinary Reporting Thread

Post #1by PlutonianEmpire » 01.10.2011, 00:08

I know kristoffer beat me to the punch in the screenshots thread (darn it :lol: ), but I wanted to post the article here anyway (but couldn't do it earlier due to real life).

http://nasascience.nasa.gov/science-new ... oublesuns/

Sept. 15, 2011: The existence of a world with a double sunset, as portrayed in the film Star Wars more than 30 years ago, is now scientific fact. NASA's Kepler mission has made the first unambiguous detection of a circumbinary planet -- a planet orbiting two stars -- 200 light-years from Earth.

Unlike Star Wars’ Tatooine, the planet is cold, gaseous and not thought to harbor life, but its discovery demonstrates the diversity of planets in our galaxy. Previous research has hinted at the existence of circumbinary planets, but clear confirmation proved elusive. Kepler detected such a planet, known as Kepler-16b, by observing transits, where the brightness of a parent star dims from the planet crossing in front of it.

"This discovery confirms a new class of planetary systems that could harbor life," Kepler principal investigator William Borucki said. "Given that most stars in our galaxy are part of a binary system, this means the opportunities for life are much broader than if planets form only around single stars. This milestone discovery confirms a theory that scientists have had for decades but could not prove until now."

A research team led by Laurance Doyle of the SETI Institute in Mountain View, Calif., used data from the Kepler space telescope, which measures dips in the brightness of more than 150,000 stars, to search for transiting planets. Kepler is the first NASA mission capable of finding Earth-size planets in or near the "habitable zone," the region in a planetary system where liquid water can exist on the surface of the orbiting planet.

Scientists detected the new planet in the Kepler-16 system, a pair of orbiting stars that eclipse each other from our vantage point on Earth. When the smaller star partially blocks the larger star, a primary eclipse occurs, and a secondary eclipse occurs when the smaller star is occulted, or completely blocked, by the larger star.

Astronomers further observed that the brightness of the system dipped even when the stars were not eclipsing one another, hinting at a third body. The additional dimming in brightness events, called the tertiary and quaternary eclipses, reappeared at irregular intervals of time, indicating the stars were in different positions in their orbit each time the third body passed. This showed the third body was circling, not just one, but both stars, in a wide circumbinary orbit.

The gravitational tug on the stars, measured by changes in their eclipse times, was a good indicator of the mass of the third body. Only a very slight gravitational pull was detected, one that only could be caused by a small mass. The findings are described in a new study published Friday, Sept. 16, in the journal Science.

"Most of what we know about the sizes of stars comes from such eclipsing binary systems, and most of what we know about the size of planets comes from transits," said Doyle, who also is the lead author and a Kepler participating scientist. "Kepler-16 combines the best of both worlds, with stellar eclipses and planetary transits in one system."

This discovery confirms that Kepler-16b is an inhospitable, cold world about the size of Saturn and thought to be made up of about half rock and half gas. The parent stars are smaller than our sun. One is 69 percent the mass of the sun and the other only 20 percent. Kepler-16b orbits around both stars every 229 days, similar to Venus’ 225-day orbit, but lies outside the system’s habitable zone, where liquid water could exist on the surface, because the stars are cooler than our sun.

"Working in film, we often are tasked with creating something never before seen," said visual effects supervisor John Knoll of Industrial Light & Magic, a division of Lucasfilm Ltd., in San Francisco. "However, more often than not, scientific discoveries prove to be more spectacular than anything we dare imagine. There is no doubt these discoveries influence and inspire storytellers. Their very existence serves as cause to dream bigger and open our minds to new possibilities beyond what we think we 'know.'"

I think this is awesome! :)

What do you guys think?
Last edited by PlutonianEmpire on 15.10.2012, 03:57, edited 2 times in total.
Terraformed Pluto: Now with New Horizons maps! :D

Deepwatcher
Posts: 27
Joined: 21.08.2011
Age: 32
With us: 13 years 2 months
Location: Turin (Italy)

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #2by Deepwatcher » 02.10.2011, 01:24

That it's a dream becoming true! :lol:

I'm very into extrasolar planet search, and every finding is more exciting than the previous. A Tatooine-like planet is a great step for science!

For astrophysics it was just too improbable that a planet would form along with a binary star... Too many gravitational perturbations, every body would be expelled from the forming binary systems millions of years before the ignition of the two main star.

But Kepler-16b is a planet that DO formed along with the binary stars. This is an epochal discovery!

Avatar
Hungry4info
Posts: 1133
Joined: 11.09.2005
With us: 19 years 1 month
Location: Indiana, United States

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #3by Hungry4info » 02.10.2011, 16:08

Deepwatcher wrote:For astrophysics it was just too improbable that a planet would form along with a binary star...

For who?

I don't think anyone thought it was improbable. Especially by the time Kepler-16 b was made public (you know.. since we had a dozen other planet candidates known to orbit binary stars).

I seriously doubt anyone seriously doubted circumbinary planets existed.
Current Setup:
Windows 7 64 bit. Celestia 1.6.0.
AMD Athlon Processor, 1.6 Ghz, 3 Gb RAM
ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics

Deepwatcher
Posts: 27
Joined: 21.08.2011
Age: 32
With us: 13 years 2 months
Location: Turin (Italy)

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #4by Deepwatcher » 03.10.2011, 19:29

Well, an orbit around a binary star may probably be too eccentric or unstable, and the body formed along with the stars would be expelled from it's sistem. Also the Sun did this in the first ages of our System, a lot of planetesimal were tossed into the deep space. A binary star has far more complex gravitational interactions, so finding a body around it, and in a quite perfect circular orbit, was really odd!

Yes, the canidates are many, but until this discover we knew only one binary star with planets, and it was a binary composed of a neutron star and a white dwarf. Probably the oldest exoplanet ever found. But here we have two main sequence stars... The orbit crearly suggest that the planet formed with the stars, it's too circular, a captured body wouldn't have that small eccentricity!

However, we were just luky in finding a transitating binary with a transiting planet! :lol:

starguy84
Posts: 36
Joined: 02.12.2010
With us: 13 years 11 months

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #5by starguy84 » 03.10.2011, 21:41

I wouldn't say it was unlikely either. All you have to do to minimize the perturbations you're talking about is get the outer component far enough away. And if there were dust rings around close binaries, surely there could be planets formed from such dust.

And: there are plenty of binary stars with planets:
Upsilon Andromeda (one of the first stars known to have planets, and then a tiny distant stellar companion was discovered LATER. Ironic, because initial planet searches were, I believe, trying to look at single stars)
55 Cnc (famously with 5 planets, but it also has a tiny distant stellar companion B (big B, not little b))
HD80606 (with a planet on a comet-like eccentric orbit, its distant stellar companion is HD80607)
HD41004 (B has a brown dwarf in orbit, A has a planet in orbit)
Gl 86 (the planet orbits A; B is a white dwarf, which makes you wonder what the planet's like)
Tau Boo (again, a tiny companion far more distant)
16 Cyg (the planet orbits B, the A component is larger and much farther away)
GJ 3021 (the star has a tiny distant stellar companion)
Exoplanet.eu lists UZ For as having two circumbinary planets (one confirmed, one unconfirmed) but it's a Cataclysmic Variable, which means one of the stars is a white dwarf, and the other is dumping matter onto that white dwarf.
http://exoplanet.eu/planet.php?p1=UZ+For%28ab%29&p2=d

The only thing I find interesting about the Kepler planet is that the periods of the planet and the stars are so similar; it implies the separation of the stars and the planet aren't much bigger than than the separation of the stars from each other. I had been under the impression you needed a 5:1 or 7:1 ratio before those were stable. (most of the above systems have stellar companions 10x to 1000x farther from the planet host, than the planet is. 0.1 AU vs 120 AU, that sort of thing.

Avatar
Hungry4info
Posts: 1133
Joined: 11.09.2005
With us: 19 years 1 month
Location: Indiana, United States

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #6by Hungry4info » 04.10.2011, 03:12

The majority of systems starguy84 mention are cases where the planets orbit a single member of a binary system, instead of circumbinary planets like Kepler-16 b. They are, therefore, not appropriate analogues.

Examples of circumbinary planets discovered before Kepler-16 include
PSR B1620-26 b, DP Leo b, HW Vir b and c, NN Ser (AB) c and d, HU Aqr (AB) b and c, and UZ For (AB) d.

The major caveat being that most of these only have minimum masses measured, and none are known to transit.
Current Setup:
Windows 7 64 bit. Celestia 1.6.0.
AMD Athlon Processor, 1.6 Ghz, 3 Gb RAM
ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics

Avatar
Cham M
Posts: 4324
Joined: 14.01.2004
Age: 60
With us: 20 years 9 months
Location: Montreal

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #7by Cham » 04.10.2011, 03:25

Hungry4info wrote:Examples of circumbinary planets discovered before Kepler-16 include
PSR B1620-26 b, DP Leo b, HW Vir b and c, NN Ser (AB) c and d, HU Aqr (AB) b and c, and UZ For (AB) d.

All of them are already in Celestia's database, except UZ For ?
"Well! I've often seen a cat without a grin", thought Alice; "but a grin without a cat! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in all my life!"

Avatar
Topic author
PlutonianEmpire M
Posts: 1374
Joined: 09.09.2004
Age: 39
With us: 20 years 1 month
Location: MinneSNOWta
Contact:

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #8by PlutonianEmpire » 07.10.2011, 22:42

I was looking at the system in Celestia, and it dawned on me that maybe the reason b is so close to Kepler-16 A/B is because the second Sun is so much smaller, behaving like a rather extreme exoplanet than a star, even though it is a star?

To me, it looked like an extreme version of a setup with the Sun and Jupiter, where the secondary is small enough for the primary to not have to travel very far in its orbit around the barycenter. So maybe, the more equal the binary, the farther out from the barycenter and therefore greater distance for the primary to travel, and thus, the closest a planet could be to the pair would have to be farther out because the primary sun has to travel more.

If I'm making any sense, that is. :lol:
Terraformed Pluto: Now with New Horizons maps! :D

Avatar
Topic author
PlutonianEmpire M
Posts: 1374
Joined: 09.09.2004
Age: 39
With us: 20 years 1 month
Location: MinneSNOWta
Contact:

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #9by PlutonianEmpire » 12.01.2012, 05:03

Sorry for reviving an old thread, but I'm seeing reports of more circumbinary planets:

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/01/ ... uns-found/

http://www1.nasa.gov/mission_pages/kepl ... ept-1.html
Terraformed Pluto: Now with New Horizons maps! :D

Deepwatcher
Posts: 27
Joined: 21.08.2011
Age: 32
With us: 13 years 2 months
Location: Turin (Italy)

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #10by Deepwatcher » 29.01.2012, 14:46

Yep, now we have three exoplants being circumbinary found by Kepler!

This makes me think that if we found THREE transiting planets around transiting binaries then they are far more common than we ever thought!

Yes, I knew those systems, but Kepler-16 was extraordinary because the two stars are both in the main sequence!
Kepler-34 is far more interesting, it orbits at 1 AU from the barycenter and the stars are both sunlike! Like Kepler-35, anyway.

It's a whole new class of planets, the circumbinary ones!


I wonder how long will it take to find planets around three or four stars (very difficult, but we said so also concerning the binary stars) :D :D

Avatar
Topic author
PlutonianEmpire M
Posts: 1374
Joined: 09.09.2004
Age: 39
With us: 20 years 1 month
Location: MinneSNOWta
Contact:

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #11by PlutonianEmpire » 29.08.2012, 04:21

Two more discoveries, Kepler-38, and -47, the second discovery being the first circumbinary multi-planet system. :D
Terraformed Pluto: Now with New Horizons maps! :D

Avatar
Hungry4info
Posts: 1133
Joined: 11.09.2005
With us: 19 years 1 month
Location: Indiana, United States

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #12by Hungry4info » 29.08.2012, 18:57

J.T.K. wrote:Why look so far so that Alpha Centauri is to ~4.3 LY (or Delta Tri at 35.2 LY) :?:

Firstly, ? Cen is not comparable to these Kepler systems because it has a much larger orbital separation. Any planets there would be expected to have S-type orbits (a planet orbiting a single star, as opposed to P-type circumbinary orbits).

Secondly, and more importantly, neither ? Cen nor ? Tri are in Kepler's fixed field of view. Transiting planets are rather rare among the sum of planetary systems, so the more stars you look at, the better a chance you have of detecting them. You can increase your chances of finding them by looking at a field that has a lot of stars in it, which is what Kepler is doing.

You might imagine Kepler's field of view carves out a sort of "cone" of space that Kepler is searching, converging at our solar system and spreading out in size the further out you get. Because the volume of this search space increases with distance, you would expect the majority of discoveries to be distant. There's a great visual of this effect here on ajtribick's Kepler candidate addon.

Because of this, the transit method is a bit biased toward more distant systems than radial velocity or astrometry.
Current Setup:
Windows 7 64 bit. Celestia 1.6.0.
AMD Athlon Processor, 1.6 Ghz, 3 Gb RAM
ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics

Avatar
Chuft-Captain
Posts: 1779
Joined: 18.12.2005
With us: 18 years 10 months

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #13by Chuft-Captain » 29.08.2012, 19:38

Transiting planets ... [observable from our solar system] ... are rather rare among the sum of planetary systems...
Transiting planets are certainly NOT rare among the sum of planetary systems. :wink:
"Is a planetary surface the right place for an expanding technological civilization?"
-- Gerard K. O'Neill (1969)

CATALOG SYNTAX HIGHLIGHTING TOOLS LAGRANGE POINTS

Avatar
Hungry4info
Posts: 1133
Joined: 11.09.2005
With us: 19 years 1 month
Location: Indiana, United States

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #14by Hungry4info » 29.08.2012, 19:53

Chuft-Captain wrote:
Transiting planets ... [observable from our solar system] ... are rather rare among the sum of planetary systems...
Transiting planets are certainly NOT rare among the sum of planetary systems. :wink:
You're right of course. I expected the whole "from our perspective" was understood.
Current Setup:
Windows 7 64 bit. Celestia 1.6.0.
AMD Athlon Processor, 1.6 Ghz, 3 Gb RAM
ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics

Avatar
Chuft-Captain
Posts: 1779
Joined: 18.12.2005
With us: 18 years 10 months

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #15by Chuft-Captain » 29.08.2012, 21:21

Hungry4info wrote:
Chuft-Captain wrote:
Transiting planets ... [observable from our solar system] ... are rather rare among the sum of planetary systems...
Transiting planets are certainly NOT rare among the sum of planetary systems. :wink:
You're right of course. I expected the whole "from our perspective" was understood.
Sure, I'm just being pedantic of course!
I thought it worthwhile to make the point that the existence of planetary systems around these stars is probably not at all rare, just that we can only detect them (by transit method) when their ecliptic is nicely aligned with us, which statistically would be rare.
"Is a planetary surface the right place for an expanding technological civilization?"
-- Gerard K. O'Neill (1969)

CATALOG SYNTAX HIGHLIGHTING TOOLS LAGRANGE POINTS

Avatar
Topic author
PlutonianEmpire M
Posts: 1374
Joined: 09.09.2004
Age: 39
With us: 20 years 1 month
Location: MinneSNOWta
Contact:

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #16by PlutonianEmpire » 30.08.2012, 01:57

Hungry4info wrote:
J.T.K. wrote:Why look so far so that Alpha Centauri is to ~4.3 LY (or Delta Tri at 35.2 LY) :?:

Firstly, ? Cen is not comparable to these Kepler systems because it has a much larger orbital separation. Any planets there would be expected to have S-type orbits (a planet orbiting a single star, as opposed to P-type circumbinary orbits).

Secondly, and more importantly, neither ? Cen nor ? Tri are in Kepler's fixed field of view. Transiting planets are rather rare among the sum of planetary systems, so the more stars you look at, the better a chance you have of detecting them. You can increase your chances of finding them by looking at a field that has a lot of stars in it, which is what Kepler is doing.

You might imagine Kepler's field of view carves out a sort of "cone" of space that Kepler is searching, converging at our solar system and spreading out in size the further out you get. Because the volume of this search space increases with distance, you would expect the majority of discoveries to be distant. There's a great visual of this effect here on ajtribick's Kepler candidate addon.

Because of this, the transit method is a bit biased toward more distant systems than radial velocity or astrometry.
@J.T.K. On top of that, the orbital plane of both ALF Cen and DEL Tri are not aligned with our vantage point, thus they will never transit; at least, not until stellar drift changes our vantage point enough for transits to become favorable when looking at these systems, which will take millions of years, I believe.
Terraformed Pluto: Now with New Horizons maps! :D

Avatar
Hungry4info
Posts: 1133
Joined: 11.09.2005
With us: 19 years 1 month
Location: Indiana, United States

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #17by Hungry4info » 30.08.2012, 03:52

PlutonianEmpire wrote:On top of that, the orbital plane of both ALF Cen and DEL Tri are not aligned with our vantage point, thus they will never transit.
It isn't yet known how well the alignment of planetary systems around members of a binary system follows the alignment of that binary star system, especially for intermediate period binaries.

Even in the case of long-period binaries, there could be significant misalignments between the planetary and stellar systems.

55 Cancri: A Coplanar Planetary System that is Likely Misaligned with its Star
Current Setup:
Windows 7 64 bit. Celestia 1.6.0.
AMD Athlon Processor, 1.6 Ghz, 3 Gb RAM
ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics

Avatar
Topic author
PlutonianEmpire M
Posts: 1374
Joined: 09.09.2004
Age: 39
With us: 20 years 1 month
Location: MinneSNOWta
Contact:

Re: Planet with two suns found

Post #18by PlutonianEmpire » 30.08.2012, 05:34

Hungry4info wrote:
PlutonianEmpire wrote:On top of that, the orbital plane of both ALF Cen and DEL Tri are not aligned with our vantage point, thus they will never transit.
It isn't yet known how well the alignment of planetary systems around members of a binary system follows the alignment of that binary star system, especially for intermediate period binaries.

Even in the case of long-period binaries, there could be significant misalignments between the planetary and stellar systems.

55 Cancri: A Coplanar Planetary System that is Likely Misaligned with its Star
Oh good, that makes me feel less guilty for doing this. :lol:
Terraformed Pluto: Now with New Horizons maps! :D

Avatar
Topic author
PlutonianEmpire M
Posts: 1374
Joined: 09.09.2004
Age: 39
With us: 20 years 1 month
Location: MinneSNOWta
Contact:

Re: Pluto's Circumbinary Reporting Thread

Post #19by PlutonianEmpire » 15.10.2012, 01:22

Changed thread title, cuz I want this thread to be my official news thread regarding news and discoveries about circumbinary planets. :)

Anyways, paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1210.3612
This one's in a quadruple system! :o

We report the discovery and confirmation of a transiting circumbinary planet (PH1) around KIC 4862625, an eclipsing binary in the Kepler field. The planet was discovered by volunteers searching the first six Quarters of publicly available Kepler data as part of the Planet Hunters citizen science project. Transits of the planet across the larger and brighter of the eclipsing stars are detectable by visual inspection every ~137 days, with seven transits identified in Quarters 1-11. The physical and orbital parameters of both the host stars and planet were obtained via a photometric-dynamical model, simultaneously fitting both the measured radial velocities and the Kepler light curve of KIC 4862625.The 6.18 $\pm$ 0.17 Earth radii planet orbits outside the 20-day orbit of an eclipsing binary consisting of an F dwarf (1.734 +/- 0.044 Solar radii, 1.528 +/- 0.087 Solar masses) and M dwarf (0.378 +/0 0.023 Solar radii, 0.408 +/- 0.024 solar masses). For the planet, we find an upper mass limit of 169 Earth masses(0.531 Jupiter masses) at the 99.7& confidence level. With a radius and mass less than that of Jupiter, PH1 is well within the planetary regime. Outside the planet's orbit, at ~1000 AU, a previously unknown visual binary has been identified that is bound to the planetary system, making this the first known case of a quadruple star system with a transiting planet.

EDIT:
Another new one, which is something more along the lines of HW Virginis: http://arxiv.org/abs/1210.3055

We present an eclipse timing variations analysis of the post-common envelope binary NSVS 14256825, which is composed by a sdOB star and a dM star in a close orbit (P_{orb} = 0.110374 days). High-speed photometry of this system was performed between July, 2010 and August, 2012. Ten new mid-eclipse times of NSVS 14256825 were analyzed together with all available eclipse times in the literature. We revisited the O--C diagram using a linear ephemeris and detected a clear orbital period variation. We investigated this variation on the assumption that it is a light travel time (LTT) effect. A full orbital motion analysis indicates that two LTT shifts with semi-amplitudes of ~20 s and ~5 s are superimposed on the O--C diagram and are consistent with two circumbinary bodies. The best solution provides the orbital periods, P_c = 3.49 +/- 0.21 years and P_d = 6.86 +/- 0.25 years, and the projected semi-major axes, a_c \sin I_c = 1.9 +/- 0.3 AU and a_d \sin I_d = 2.9 +/- 0.6 AU, for the circumbinary bodies. The masses of the external bodies are M_c ~2.8 M_{Jupiter} and M_d ~8.1 M_{Jupiter}, if we assume their orbits are coplanar with the close binary. Therefore NSVS 14256825 is composed by the close binary and two circumbinary planets in a 2:1 mean motion resonance. The closer planet in NSVS 14256825 has the minimum binary-planet separation among all known circumbinary planets in post-common envelope systems.
Terraformed Pluto: Now with New Horizons maps! :D

Avatar
Hungry4info
Posts: 1133
Joined: 11.09.2005
With us: 19 years 1 month
Location: Indiana, United States

Re: Pluto's Circumbinary Reporting Thread

Post #20by Hungry4info » 15.10.2012, 03:45

PlutonianEmpire wrote:Changed thread title, cuz I want this thread to be my official news thread regarding news and discoveries about circumbinary planets. :)
I totally like the idea, but could you change the first word to something that isn't so easily confused with the solar system body by the same name?
You just caused a rush of adrenaline in my gut at the possibility of this most recent post announcing the discovery of a sixth moon at Pluto, based on my reading of the title. :lol:
Current Setup:
Windows 7 64 bit. Celestia 1.6.0.
AMD Athlon Processor, 1.6 Ghz, 3 Gb RAM
ATI Radeon HD 3200 Graphics


Return to “Physics and Astronomy”