Harsh contact

[rilett33]

Hi

I'm new here.
I already posted in two topics and the contact was a bit harsh.
I would not say it's not my fault.
I speak abruptly and perhaps with a bit of exaggeration.
And as a penetrating guy has noticed, I do not even have the excuse of having had a bad day.

But I learned some things about Celestia and the people of the forum.
Let me tell you how I see things.

The starting point:
==================
I found Celestia on the Internet and I managed to install it and run.
I suspect great potential but the Help provided with the program is very small.
Can it even be called a decent help?

But all what people need is on the Internet and searching a bit, I found this forum.
Big disappointment!
I do virtually understand nothing to what is said here.
I thought for example that the help section was to allow beginners to ask questions.
But here the "beginner" asks weird questions like:

Sorry to ask a so elementary question, but I have an xyz powder and I would like to transform it to add spice on my orbits' trajectories. Any help...

This is clearly not for me.

I browsed also the tutorials. There are very few and not for beginners.
I do not even speak of development topics.
The little bistro is sometimes funny, but this is not what will make me advance in the knowledge of Celestia.

And that's where I found the "addons releases".
I know very well what it is. (I thought I knew).

In most software, when an addon is announced to be available, you click on a link that causes the installation of the addon. New features appear and the user can immediately enjoy them. It is sometimes necessary to read some documentation to know what are these features and how to use them. But the design and installation are transparent to the user.
Nobody says you're stupid because you do not know how the addon itself was made.

First experience:
===================
I seew an addon that promises more specific details on the Earth. The description sounds interesting but the most important is missing: The addon itself.
Jogad was so eager to present his baby that he has announced his addon before it becomes available.
Since no one responded, I decided to do.
I admit that my style is aggressive. But I am one of the few preoccupied with the addon. If the topic has finished in ice cream juice, it's not my fault.

Second experience:
==================
2010 AL30 ... strange title. I am curious and I decided to see what it is.
I find a short explanation of what is 2010 AL30 and also some green lines which I do not understand. No clue for a neophyte to guess what it is. Especially with an image of the Earth but not of the addon.
Once again I think (wrongly) that there is no addon available and I think it's a bad habit in this forum.
Hence my reaction.
You must admit that it was a very mild reaction from me.

I discovered something really stupendous. The few cryptic green lines ARE the addon. I never thought this was possible!
Celestia is a really a great program to allow such a miracle.
In this regard, I wonder why jogad has not done the same thing, instead of leading us to wait three weeks.

Just by curiosity, what's the meaning of:

Copy and paste the code into an SSC file and place it in your extras folder.

You have to take the code that CAP-Team posted and put it in text editor and the save that as a file with the ending SSC.

The link to the documentation that toofri gave me seems to overlook such details that seem obvious to everyone here.
In fact I thing I guess the meaning but I don't know how to do.

What will seem most strange for you is that I could always use my computer without knowing these things.
And more, not knowing where are the files in the computer nor how to build them has never prevented me to install addons or plug-ins. For games, yes, but also for other programs. For example in Firefox.
Is Firefox a game designed for idiots?

What is Celestia?
=========================
Somebody said:
(I changed the name and distorted voices to respect her anonymity)

Poor fool! CELESTIA IS NOT A GAME! Go and study the documentation. In the time you learn to read we'll have some rest.

(the voice is really distorted, do not complain if you do not understand correctly.)

CELESTIA IS NOT A GAME !?!?!
Are you kidding?
I do not say Celestia is only a game, but it's really a game
Who has ever tried to move between Saturn's rings with the joystick? It's really super fun!
Go and see all the addons that exist for imaginary worlds, startrek or starwars.
Yes. Even if a game is intelligent, educational and scientific, it's still a game! And a good one!

Before leaving, I still have a little score to settle.

Darth Vader exclaimed, pointing at me:
(here I also distorted voice and changed the name)

Soldiers! Annihilate the vermin who defies authority and does not even deserve to breathe.

If I said something similar, it was just bravado from me and only for the simple beauty of a symmetric reply. I obviously never thought seriously about silencing anyone.

[selden]

rilett33,

I'm sorry your introduction to Celestia has been so negative. I think that part of the problem is that many of the people on the Forum have been using Celestia for many years, so that it is hard for them to understand what things are unknown to the novice. When you want help, though, it's better to ask questions than to blame someone else for not providing something.

The help files in Celestia are minimal because the good documentation is so large. It is not considered appropriate to include so much and make the initial installation large and slow.

For help understanding how to use Celestia, you should read the Users Guide that Frank Gregorio wrote. It's available in several languages on the Celestia MotherLode Web site on the page
http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/catal ... ation.html

For help understanding how Addons work, you will need to read the Web page
http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celest ... intro.html
It includes links to other Web pages with more information.

The Celestia WikiBook provides even more details, but it is intended as a reference. This means that it has minimal tutorials. Most of it is intended to be used by someone who knows what he wants to do but isn't sure about the specific details. The Celestia WikiBook is at
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Celestia

Work on Celestia is strictly a volunteer operation. It does not have any developers who are primarily interested in making the simplest possible user interface for novices. As a result, it tends to be oriented toward use by people who are very familiar with computers and astronomy.

[John Van Vliet]

--- edit ---

[jogad]

Hello,

Soldiers! Annihilate the vermin who defies authority and does not even deserve to breathe.

Glad you escape the Lord of the Sith
For my part, you are welcome, even barking

But here the "beginner" asks weird questions like:

Sorry to ask a so elementary question, but I have an xyz powder and I would like to transform it to add spice on my orbits' trajectories. Any help...

if you have simple questions you can of course ask in the Help forum.
It would be a good example to follow for those who dare not.
As I cannot reply to complicated questions I am always glad to anser to simple ones

I discovered something really stupendous. The few cryptic green lines ARE the addon. I never thought this was possible!
Celestia is a really a great program to allow such a miracle.
In this regard, I wonder why jogad has not done the same thing, instead of leading us to wait three weeks.

It is rare that an addon is composed of a single file.
That's why CAP-Team gave it in this form.

Usually there are several files that are compressed in a zip archive
to install the addons it is essential that you know how to:
- download a file (the archive)
- Decompress the archive files to the location indicated by the documentation.

Theses competences are generally taken for granted by members of this forum.
But if you're really stuck after trying by yourself, we can still help.

[ajtribick]

Pity you formed these impressions, but you did come in here accusing people of faking add-ons and lying. Your very first post was pure accusation, not asking for help. When you were called on this, you then demanded that the moderators ban a long-standing member of the community. And then after this was not met with approval, you then post here complaining that the community is out to get you.

Your posts indicate you are looking for things to "attack". If you come in here with such an "attack first" mentality, don't be surprised if it is met in kind.

None of us has an obligation to help you. This is done on our own free time, and to be honest the majority of us have far better things to do than offer free help and advice to someone who feels the need to attack members of the community and the whole community itself at every opportunity.

[t00fri]

Pity you formed these impressions, but you did come in here accusing people of faking add-ons and lying. Your very first post was pure accusation, not asking for help. When you were called on this, you then demanded that the moderators ban a long-standing member of the community. And then after this was not met with approval, you then post here complaining that the community is out to get you.

Your posts indicate you are looking for things to "attack". If you come in here with such an "attack first" mentality, don't be surprised if it is met in kind.

None of us has an obligation to help you. This is done on our own free time, and to be honest the majority of us have far better things to do than offer free help and advice to someone who feels the need to attack members of the community and the whole community itself at every opportunity.

Precisely...

I would have long embarked on a reply to rilett33 with virtually identical content, yet I thought it was better in this context not to reinstate my 8 year old reputation in this community of saying "too directly" what I think .

Fridger

[Reiko]

rilett33 you need to calm down. When you need help the first thing you should do is search the forums and read the guides. Then you ask for help. I don't understand much of what is discussed here either but if you ask nicely and be courteous, people will help you and bring it down to a level you can understand.

[John Van Vliet]

--- edit ---

[t00fri]

I thought it was better in this context not to reinstate my 8 year old reputation in this community of saying "too directly" what I think

well you are mellowing out a bit

Yeah,... I hope it's not an aging effect... Probably it's due to the fact that most people I liked to fight with have left the forum, meanwhile...

Fridger

[John Van Vliet]

--- edit ---

[CAP-Team]

boy did I get somethin' started

[John Van Vliet]

--- edit ---

[Fenerit]

Before this thread goes locked, Darth Fener (so was translated in Italy the name of the Star Wars' character, I do not know why) would reply to some points in very quiet way, without to bring for the neck the captain Antiles (Rilett33) as start. Such a points are important IMHO, whereas could explain and in the sametime to avoid harshness. The way in which you, Rilett33, are arrived here recall the case of an italian that once went in Japan was complaining that japanese speak japanese and not italian. You will agree that the italian would have made best to rest where is. Why this:

1)

In most software, when an addon is announced to be available, you click on a link that causes the installation of the addon. New features appear and the user can immediately enjoy them. It is sometimes necessary to read some documentation to know what are these features and how to use them. But the design and installation are transparent to the user.Nobody says you're stupid because you do not know how the addon itself was made.

This is surely true. BUT: how many years are gone before to arrive at this? LOTS of people here are starts from times in which HARD DISKs was a mirage, where you would have reach the out of memory for the Celestia core-code and so on. Today is easy to install 300 - 400 Mb for accomplish operations that even 100 Kb does. But probably the big program has so high graphics that is cute to see, instead the small program is scanty; that is: is ugly. This is a question of mentality for lots of things, not just for "computer-attitude". Such a discourse is confirmed here:

I discovered something really stupendous. The few cryptic green lines ARE the addon. I never thought this was possible! Celestia is a really a great program to allow such a miracle. In this regard, I wonder why jogad has not done the same thing, instead of leading us to wait three weeks.

Thats lines aren't just Celestia's add-on; they are INSTRUCTIONS, an informatic feature that allow the computers to works; you stay using an object that you don't know how it work; fortunately is not a gun!

...AND NOW WHY CELESTIA IS NOT A GAME:

Suppose you play with a first person shooter, and you have a mission: once entered in the game you must go ahead, level by level, ruled by the map. You cannot run along a direction that is out of the game's logic, usually is forbidden and is communicate by a message on screen. Do you find something of similar here in Celestia?

Finally, must be clear that my intervening of the days ago, was just for the things summoned up by ajtribick.

[BobHegwood]

Yeah,... I hope it's not an aging effect... Probably it's due to the fact that most people I liked to fight with have left the forum, meanwhile...

Fridger

Well, I'm still here... Hee, hee...

And, if I may also say something to the point concerning this thread...
A person may never receive help when criticizing the same people he is asking help from.
Take the initiative my friend, and spend a bit of time reading the documentation available.
You might also try searching this forum, as almost any question has been answered at some
point in the past.

Just my two cents worh...

Thanks, Brain-Dead

[bh]

I'm afraid I have nothing to add.

[rilett33]

Moderators please, banish everyone here except me!
At this point some explanations are necessary.

I read all the responses and the last is especially interesting but two particularly hold my attention.

Ajtribick, I thank you for your frank and direct answer.
Moreover you seem to translate the feeling of most members here.
Unfortunately your response proves that you have misinterpreted my first posts and have only read the last one partly and with preconceived ideas.

Of course, this is not your fault but mine and you're not alone.
First of all, I do not complain of anything.
When I speak of rough contact, it is you who have suffered because of me and not me because of you.
You are the victims of my apparent aggressiveness and I am not innocent.

Your very first post was pure accusation, not asking for help.

That is perfectly true but the only real accusation was that the announced addon did not exist. And it was the truth.
Everything else was speculations and not assertions, which fortunately were false.
I do not think you deem me so stupid that I believe they were true.
It was only exaggerated style in order to capture your attention.
Maybe the result sounds differently in English than in may native language. All is not under absolute control.

Is begging for help the only right of a newcomer in this forum? No right to denounce what he considers to be errors?
Of course if I am in the wrong, a sarcarstic or ironic answer is well-deserved. I don't contest it.


The alleged application of a banishment from me against a member of the forum is a nonsense and an insult. I have yet explained that in my previous post. It was like saying "magic mirror". Again I would be so stupid to think I have such a power?

Taking into account what I said above, if someone feels really hurt by reading quietly my posts, I will do a personal apology to him.

None of us has an obligation to help you. This is done on our own free time, and to be honest the majority of us have far better things to do than offer free help and advice to someone who feels the need to attack members of the community and the whole community itself at every opportunity.

This is absolutely clear for me.
But thre where plenty of opportunities and only two interventions. (bad style again?)
In any case I thank you for taking the time to answer me candidly.

In fact I did not explicitly ask for help and I was quite surprised to get it anyway.
I will obviously not thank you for that. Otherwise I would not be the bad guy you love to hate.
But part of the help you gave me was really helpful.
And the part that has not yet been used will certainly be useful later.

For example, I am now able to load and run a good part of the addons that are on the Motherlode site. Not all, however.
Your advices and the links that you gave me have saved me long and tedious searches. Because of you, it will be more difficult to me to use my ignorance to justify my interventions. Be damned.

The second person I thank particularly is Fenerit.
You seem to be the only one who read my post carefully and who answered questions unrelated to the controversy.

Darth Vader = Darth Fener in ITaly. Interesting! Your pseudo was not so evident without that.
Captain Antilles is good for me. As soon as I figure out how to do that, this character will be my avatar.

I do not understand well your story about your Italian in Japon. Do you regret that programs are easier to use now than in Ol' good time? Is it an important sin to use 300 MB instead of 100 Kb if the cost of 300 MB now is less than the cost of 100 kb when dinosaurs where on the Earth?

Ok I understand for instructions. But in this case, where is the addon? and if the instructions are the addon, the instruction lines are the addon. No?

you stay using an object that you do not know how it work, fortunately is not a gun!

Of course I have not had enough time to see the documentation on this subject to know if it is a gun or not. Sometimes you have to trust and hope it is an addon for Celestia and not a gun.
It's like my TV. I do not know in detail how it works but that does not prevent me to use it.
And who, even among experienced Celestia users, knows exactly where are the files in their sophisticated new mobile phones?

R

[Fenerit]

Rilett33, you post above is clear, calm and moreover truly acceptable! Were you firsts that I criticized, as I've explained further; even because now is evident that you are not a new kind of bot, that is a person that willing enter in the forums for then disturbing members.

You are welcome, of course.

[t00fri]

...
That is perfectly true but the only real accusation was that the announced addon did not exist. And it was the truth. Everything else was speculations and not assertions, which fortunately were false.
I do not think you deem me so stupid that I believe they were true. It was only exaggerated style in order to capture your attention.

R

While I have decided to keep out of this (mostly), here I have to protest. In your first post in Jogad's threat you manifestly implied that Jogad was lying.

I think this is a fake announcement with screenshots made from Google Earth.

If someone would try this on me,...boy, I'd get back to fighting right away.

That's where I intervened already with a respective post! To put down such a suspicion in writing provides quite a bit of "munition" among honest people. Don't you think? Notably after it was obvious that you knew NONE of them.

Fridger

[Fenerit]