"Yet Another New Earth Cloud Map Texture, This Time 4K"

Don. Edwards · Post #1by **Don. Edwards** » 14.02.2003, 04:38

Well Its finished. I desided to put it in its own section as the last thread was starting to look a little competitve.

So here is the info. These are the new depth layered cloudmaps for Earth or any other earth type planet you wish to use it with. Now this texture is a 4k.png and 4k.dds which means you better at leased have a GeForce4 class video card and a bare minimum of 64mb of VRAM, 128mb would be ideal. I may try and scale it back to a 2k but the whole idea was to get a great looking 4k cloud texture up and going. I am including 2 pictures. One of the clouds on Earth and the second of the clouds on my GreenMars texture so you can get an idea of what they might look like on another planet.

You can downloadd the cloud-map here: http://63.224.48.65/~impulse/New_Clouds-2-13-3.zip
Have fun with it and please give me as much feedback as you want.
I am still working on the other Earth cloud texture which will probably have a bit more detail than this one does. I am also thinking of making it 2 textures. One will be a northern winter texture and the other will be a southern winter texture. That way you can have some kind of seasonal changes if you want. I will keep you posted with pictures and updates as they come along. When done I will post it here in this section as well.
If anyone else has a 4k cloudmap ready for download they can put there info in this section as well. Hey this is an open forum anyway.

Jango Fett · Post #2by **Jango Fett** » 14.02.2003, 19:43

I downloaded it. It looks great!

Unfortunately, the .dds version doesn't seem to work on my system (or all systems???) - GF 2 Titanium 64 MB DDR, 256 MB RAM, Athlon XP 1400 Mhz... .png works fine, but I would like to see .dds in action with higher framerates...

Can you tell why .dds is not working?

Don. Edwards · Post #3by **Don. Edwards** » 15.02.2003, 08:20

Jango Fett,
I stated in the above text that the textures were for GeForce4 class cards. Celestia automaticly scales down a 4k.png file to 2k if you have a GeForce2 or 3.
Quoted from the lips of Chris himself or is that fingers: There's really no point to using an 8k cloud texture on a GF2GTS. The maximum texture width on that card is 2048. A larger cloud texture will be automatically scaled down to a width of 2048 by the driver, so you're better off just starting out with an 2048x2048 cloud map.

Thats probably why the .dds textures will not work. Fridger has also stated that on a GeForce2 there is no advantage of using any cloud texture above 2k. So you can see its not the texture, its what your GeForce2 can and can not do. So you can use the .png but its being resized to 2k for you and you don't even know its happening. I can make a 2k version if you like and it should free up some of the load on your video card but you will most likely never get the results that are in the screen caps above. Sorry about that but I was answering the request for larger cloudmap textures for those that have the hardware to play with them.
So let me know if you want a scaled down version and I will slap it together or you can of course do it your self with Photoshop or GIMP.
I have no idea of the amount of detail that is going to be lost though.
Thanks for the feedback.
Don

Jango Fett · Post #4by **Jango Fett** » 15.02.2003, 11:00

Thanks Don

The problem is I didn't know it was 4k texture at the time.
I scaled the DDS image in Photoshop (with mip maps) from 8192x2048 to 4096x1024, and now it works fine and looks very good, but... it's time to get new card, probably GF 4 Ti 128 MB....

One question: do new Matrox cards support DDS? I think they don't, which is too bad cause new Parhelia has 256 MB (I think there were rumors for 512 MB) onboard memory - just imagine: 16 k tex + 16 k night tex + 4k (or more?) cloud tex + 8k bump tex...

Don. Edwards · Post #5by **Don. Edwards** » 15.02.2003, 12:55

The Matrox might support .dds files as part of its certification for DirectX but that of course doesn't mean it can use them in OpenGL mode. I think that is the sticky ground for Matrox and it always has been. The OpenGL IDC Miniport drivers have always been late and not very tuned for speed. Of couse even it does support .dds in OpenGL your still going to miss the benefits that an NVidia card can give. Namely the ability to support spectural lighting effects and bumpmaping together. Not even the King of video cards at present, namely the ATI Radeon 9700 can give you spectural lighting effects and its bumpmaping skills in Celestia are terible at best. Until Chris moves more of the driver core of Celestia over to the common OpenGL platform that the other card manufactures use we are going to continue to see NVidia as the king of video cards as far as Celestia is concerned.
Also on a change of topiic I think you mis-typed when you said the .dds texture was 8192x2048. I double checked the original and it is definetly 4096x2048. I did a quick resize down to 2048x1024 and there is some loss of detail but the color shading in the cloudmap remains. Actualy looking at it in Photoshop with the NVDXT plugin gives a great view of what the texture looks like. Even better than it looks inside Celestia. Have a look.

The blue background comes from the colorizing Fridger did to the original. Nice to know its still there after al the tweaking being done to it. I think it apears that color of blue because its being aplied over a black background, I think?
The one bummer I have is that so far with the newer versions of the cloudmap texture I am making I can't reproduce the color shading in the clouds very well if at all. This might be one of those freak goof ups that turns out to be a diamond instead of a stone but its ending up being a one of a kind.
So hang on to it because I might not be able to replicate the effects in it again. And unfortunatly I can't seem to find the original copy that didn't have the added twisting of the coldfronts/storms I did. Oh well thats how life goes sometimes. Well I am hanging it up for now. My NyQuil is kicking in and I am beat from fighting this flu bug and I have to work tomorrow.

Jango Fett · Post #6by **Jango Fett** » 15.02.2003, 14:50

There was no mis-typing. I put note that this was texture with mip maps, and when you open it in Photoshop, it has size of 8192x2048. When I open without displaying mip maps, it's 4096x2048, but I don't know how to edit this version - Celestia can't load this texture, I must use mip map version. Sorry, I don't know much about editing DDS textures...

I have another question: how do I install GIMP? It says it uses GTK, but I don't know nothing about it.

Don. Edwards · Post #7by **Don. Edwards** » 18.02.2003, 11:24

Well here is a shot of one of the totaly new cloudmaps that is based on the mother map so to speak.

I know there is some pixelation. I zoomed just a little to close.
I finaly figured out the missed step I did to get the depth and shading to the clouds. I can't believe I forgot it. :oops:

But this picture shows that I did it right. So I am now on the right track.
I am doing some editing to the mother texture so there can be diferent versions for various seasons. and diferent sizes as well. So now we will have bumpmaped clouds with depth and shading. Stay tuned, I should have the first one ready by Friday I think.
Everyone Cross your fingers.

Don

Don. Edwards · Post #8by **Don. Edwards** » 18.02.2003, 15:48

Ok, here are 2 more pictures of the new cloudmaps. They are shots of the Northern Summer cloud map.
The first is of a very nice size Typhoon off the east cost of Japan.

The second is of a small Huricane headed for the Caribbean Sea.

I am still working on these. But this give everyone an idea of where I am headed. I still have a few issues with shadows being a little to dark over the poles. By the way, the typhoon is from a real cloudmap image while the huricane is my creation.

jim · Post #9by **jim** » 18.02.2003, 17:17

Hi Don

This is my version of a bumped earh cloud map. The size is 2048x2048 that's what my GF2 can display. I included also an atmospheric blue filter. The source was an 8k cloud map from NASA blue marble site.

Bye Jens

Don. Edwards · Post #10by **Don. Edwards** » 18.02.2003, 18:54

Thats the same texture I am using just at the 4k level.

Rassilon · Post #11by **Rassilon** » 18.02.2003, 21:11

I dont know if youve tried this yet or not...but try making an alpha 1 of your clouds and use render > lighting effects in adobe to reproduce some volumatic shadowing...The trick is with lighting is to use directional lighting and tweaking the levels just right to give it a fluffy not ridgy look...

nameless · Post #12by **nameless** » 19.02.2003, 16:52

And you say my clouds look too dark!

Don. Edwards · Post #13by **Don. Edwards** » 19.02.2003, 22:54

These are strickly very early versions. I don't even use them as my real cloudmap only taking test shots as I go along. I know the shadowing is a little heavy right now.
nameless,
My main complaint about your clouds wasn't there darkness but there loss of opacity or simply put, in your proccesing of the exture you failed to keep the clouds from going transparent. Just drop you cloudmap back into an image editor and a little brightness and a little more contrast and that should put your clouds back on the path. Becareful though. To much and you may loose the bumpmaping effect.

Rass,
I will consider your imput but, I am trying something a little diferent while I am making these. As nameless pointed out my clouds look a little dark around the edges. The reason is I am dubble bumpmapping the clouds with lighting from oposite directions. One thing that I always noticed about Fridger's clouds as great as they are, was that they were iluminated from the left. So if you had the sun to the left of the screen the clouds always had the right apearance. But if you moved the sun to the right then your eye told you something was wrong and that was the cloud shadows were then on the wrong side of the clouds. When I started modifieing the texture I flipped it top to bottom 180 degrees and then flipped it horizontal. This put the shadows on the opisite side but it still had the problem of being directional. If you look close at the pictures of the cloudmap I just released, even though it based on Fridger's cloudmap the shadowing is kind of omni directional. This helps to compensate for what ever angle you may looking at the clouds. If I use your idea it might be reintroducing the very thing I am trying to avoid. I will working on another version today with a few new ideas. As I go along I post images for everyone to look over and give me feedback on.
nameless is right on the one point. The clouds are just to dark around the edges and I would never release something in this state. If I can't please myself with my work than I don't release it. If this whole thing never turns out right at least I did give it a try and everyone got the good version I made at least. I will keep everyone posted as things improve.
Don

Don. Edwards · Post #14by **Don. Edwards** » 20.02.2003, 06:51

Ok here is another two test shots. Now I really need some input on these ones. I have figured out how to do this right as far as I am consered. I have the clouds mildly bumpmaped, what I am calling depth shading, and fairly omni directional drop shadowing. I have managed to remove a great deal of the darkness around the clouds edges and to brighten them up a bit. So have a look at these.

If I get enough good feedback than I will go forward with the last few tweaks that need to be done and I will have the Northern Winter/Southern Summer clouds finished. So please give me an idea of what you think. In the mean time I will get a start on the Souther Winter/Northern Summer cloudmap.
Don

nameless · Post #15by **nameless** » 20.02.2003, 16:37

Hmmm, i'm a bit undecided to wheather i like them or not.To be honest they still look very dark-but its kinda growing on me-although maybe not very realistic. Also have you tried tidying up in between the clouds so there not.....such a mess. I mean having such discontinuties from one 'opacicity'(is this a word!) to another. Or is this what you meant when you said my clouds were too transparent?-because i cut these bits out. Anyway here's a comparison pic from some of my clouds so you can see what i'm talking about.

As i said though your clouds do seem to grow on you.

jim · Post #16by **jim** » 20.02.2003, 18:56

Hi Don,

I have a new version of my cloud map. I improved the cloud structure and the atmospheric blue filter. The trick is not do use a sharpness filter because some soft details going lost.
I made a shot with these adjustments: pixel shader on, vertex shader on, haze on, 16k earht map, 8k normal map, 4k spec map, 2x2k clouds.

Any comments?

Bye Jens

Don. Edwards · Post #17by **Don. Edwards** » 21.02.2003, 05:16

naneless,
Unfortunatly I didn't realy take a snap of the clouds lit from overhead. Most of the pictures are tacken at angle that shows the clolor changes in the cloud layers and I do mean layers. The ccloud textures you seeing screensnaps of are at least five layers with various tweaks to each. I am still tweaking my methods. But I have decided to dump all my tests and start again. I discovered something in the texture that I didn't want in there and is. This is what I get for working while on cold medication.
Well I am going to start this over again. At least I now were and what to do.

Jango Fett · Post #18by **Jango Fett** » 22.02.2003, 22:43

Don, I need help.

I'm currently experimenting with something, but I have Photoshop error - I can't load big DDS textures (above 20 MB). It just say: Can't load "bla bla bla.dds" because of a program error. It works with smaller textures.

I have 80 GB Maxtor HDD and Photoshop uses both partitions of 40 GB for scratch disks and uses 75% of system memory (256 MB RAM, 512 MB fixed virtual memory for every partition, but I tried with Windows handled memory)

Anyway, I'm trying to achieve super realistic image of Eart with real bumpmapping on clouds, but with certain sacrifices - the clouds are inmovable and don't belong to cloud layer. They are part of earth texture, combined with oceans and continents, so some areas are permanently covered with clouds. However, the bump effect would be extremely visualy attractive.

Do you think it would work, for me, the loser with GF2, who can't enjoy even in 4k cloud textures (2k clouds above 16 k earth is really annoying!)?

Can you do something like that?

jim · Post #19by **jim** » 23.02.2003, 00:14

Jango Fett wrote:... 512 MB fixed virtual memory for every partition...

Jango, this shoud be the problem. The conversion tools from NVidea need many swapspace. You shoud windows allow 1GB or better 2GB swap file size. If i convert a 8k textur the used part of the swap file is over 1GB.
But don't use the photoshop plugin for conversion i recommend this little programm http://www.celestiaproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1503 .

Two mouse clicks and you get a DDS from a TGA,a TGA from a DDS, the mipmaps from a DDS or build a DDS form seperate mipmaps. The interface is german but simple ask if you need help.

My System: Duron900, 256MB Ram, GF2, Win98SE, swapspace: min 128MB, max 8GB. I'd converted some 8K maps (built time 15-30minutes)

Jens

Rassilon · Post #20by **Rassilon** » 23.02.2003, 00:54

To be honest if you look at nasa shots you will notice the underlying cloud shadows are pretty much the same as dons shadowing...I would still use shadowing as is and combine it with the bumpmapping i mentioned...Render the light from the top don, there really is no better place to position it IMO...