Celestia Forums

Being a prerelease, Celestia v1.5.0pre4 still has problems. One of the new features is that it has a revised color palette for lines and labels. On my Windows system the new "Celestial Grid" and constellation border colors are much too dim.

Fortunately, however, one of the new features is that you can use a CELX script to load your own set of colors.

Here's the script that I'm currently using:
colorset4.celx

Much too dim ? It's actually worst than that with wall projectors : the new default grid and many of the galactic labels are almost completely invisible ! I've tested the palette on three wall projectors used in schools and colleges.

Here's the palette I'm using :

selden wrote:Being a prerelease, Celestia v1.5.0pre4 still has problems. One of the new features is that it has a revised color palette for lines and labels. On my Windows system the new "Celestial Grid" and constellation border colors are much too dim...

Well, sorry to repeat this here, but seems we are in front of some problem of monitor calibration or color profile use.

Selden send me a shot of the result on his config and the result is far from be what I have on screen. So definitively in this condition, I would like to not see my palette for the official release

Since Celestia has no solution to control colors I think it's useless to go again in endless discussions about the color choice.

I suppose the best for now would be to use the old color palette till we find a way to normalize the color profile used by Celestia. This would be also good for textures in general, see Mars example with numerous different tone of textures depending on one taste/or color display...

According to all the tests I've made at work, on several PCs, Macs and wall projectors, the monitor's color profile isn't really an issue. The differences I saw were all pretty small. Most colors were about the same on all monitors of various types (LCD, CRT of all sorts of size and quality...).

The fact is, with the new default palette, several items are much too dark and almost invisible.

Selden, just wanted to say THANKS for the script. I did notice the color,
but since you had already gotten to it, I left it alone.

I'll be applying the code here shortly.

Thanks again, Bob

Cham wrote:According to all the tests I've made at work, on several PCs, Macs and wall projectors, the monitor's color profile isn't really an issue. The differences I saw were all pretty small. Most colors were about the same on all monitors of various types (LCD, CRT of all sorts of size and quality...).

I use presently a Samsung 19" Widescreen SyncMaster 920nw, it's not a high quality screen but it's a very luminous one; I haven't done a pro calibration because I don't have anymore the use of such fine tuned monitor but the one I use is quite good. The gamma is in the norm, video or photos are just fine. Now despite the settings, IT'S a very luminous monitor and as the palette was tuned on it it's probably why it appear so dim on other config.

What's make me worry a bit more is the difference of tone between Selden's shots and my display... But here, definitively if Celestia don't use a calibrated profile to adjust the display depending on the user monitor I don't really see what to do to define correctly some subtle tones (with vivid colors the problem is not very important...)

This problem will also be very important for some very fine tuned Mie settings for atmospheres. I fear lot of work for whatever results depending on differences in monitors config...

I don't have much time right now, but as soon as possible I'll try to dig the problem; in the meantime let's choose another palette or the old one...

selden wrote:... one of the new features is that you can use a CELX script to load your own set of colors.
Here's the script that I'm currently using:
colorset4.celx......

Sorry Selden, surely I missed some information on the matter during the very long discussions on labels/lines colors, so now I need to put a question:
how can I apply the color celx file?
I mean, if I want the planets orbits be yellow, I'll write
celestia:setlinecolor ("planetorbits", 1.0, 1.0, 0.0)
and save it in Celestia root as e.g. colorsetandrea.celx
Well, and now?
When I launch "The Orrery" show using the icon on my desktop, what have I to do in order to obtain planets orbits in yellow color?
Sorry for my ignorance, beg your pardon.
Bye

Andrea

Andrea,

you just need to run the CELX script as any other script, that's all. Define a colors.celx script with your favorite colors in it, as shown above, and use it as any other script.

Cham wrote:Andrea, you just need to run the CELX script as any other script, that's all. Define a colors.celx script with your favorite colors in it, as shown above, and use it as any other script.

Cham, I launch Celestia using the desktop icon, that contains this command line:

So you say that instead of launching this I have FIRST to launch the colors.celx , and SECOND the above command line?
Please confirm it, thank you.
Bye

Andrea

No Andrea, you need to launch Celestia first (as always) then you launch the color script as any other script. The change will be done at the instant.

If you find a color palette that please you enough, you can even edit your start.cel to a new start.celx (you will need to change your cfg file) containing the color settings to have the palette at start up...

Andrea,

just start Celestia in the usual way. Then use the colors.celx script. That's alll.

ElChristou wrote:No Andrea, you need to launch Celestia first (as always) then you launch the color script as any other script. The change will be done at the instant. If you find a color palette that please you enough, you can even edit your start.cel to a new start.celx (you will need to change your cfg file) containing the color settings to have the palette at start up...

Cham wrote:Andrea, just start Celestia in the usual way. Then use the colors.celx script. That's all....

Thank you Chris and Cham.
Now, if I understand correctly, I launch celestia with my show, and when it opens, I have to click on "Files", "Open Script" and then launch the colours.celx file.
Correct?
Well, if this is the way, I think that there is something wrong in the concept itself.
Why cannot we have the colors given in Selden's colors.celx, with all our preferred variations, in the celestia.cfg file?
Why a complex way to obtain the same result, when in cfg file each one could make all the variations he likes, and have them immediately applied at the start of celestia cel or celx file?
I don't think this is the best way, IMHO, sorry.
But thank you for your explanation, obviously I'll use it.
Bye

Andrea

Andrea,

Nobody has written the .cel code to do the the many new .celx functions, so they can't be included in start.cel

However, they could be included in start.celx if you want. You can change celestia.cfg to run start.celx instead of start.cel.

selden wrote:Andrea, Nobody has written the .cel code to do the the many new .celx functions, so they can't be included in start.cel
However, they could be included in start.celx if you want. You can change celestia.cfg to run start.celx instead of start.cel.

Thank you Selden, but evidently I'm unable to express clearly what I mean, my bad English fault, sorry.
I mean that I DON'T want to launch celestia with start.cel file, but with other cel files that are all in the extras-->Addons directory.
So I repeat: why is it so difficult to change the cfg file, adding the labels and lines colors chosing possibility?
This IMHO could be the simplest way, and I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing this.
Bye

Andrea

selden wrote:Here's the script that I'm currently using:

Selden, taking your script as example, I want to illustrate one point that seems important to me, the weight of tones.

A trick to appreciate better this point is to take a screenshot and desaturate the pict.
You can see in the instant if lines are "fighting" each others (same weight) or if their weight is different.
The logic tell me that orbits should be more present than guides in general, but perhaps I'm wrong?

Perhaps this trick can help to determinate the choice of colors and intensity...

ElChristou wrote:You can see in the instant if lines are "fighting" each others (same weight) or if their weight is different.
The logic tell me that orbits should be more present than guides in general, but perhaps I'm wrong?

ELChristou,

Celestia isn't a paint or a picture viewer program. The shades and "weight" depend on the uses. Very often, the planet orbits (as an example) are not what really matters. While leaving ON the orbits, some may want to clearly see the constellations. So the weight you're talking about is extremely dependant on the context, not on some "static layers" concept (planets on the foreground and stars in the back, etc). Sometimes, the celestial grid becomes what is really important to locate some object, so its labels must be clearly readable. They aren't just "decoration" on the background.

Celestia is also used with a projector in planetariums, conference talks, classroom, etc. So every element must be readable.

ANDREA wrote:I mean that I DON'T want to launch celestia with start.cel file, but with other cel files that are all in the extras-->Addons directory.
So I repeat: why is it so difficult to change the cfg file, adding the labels and lines colors chosing possibility?

I think Andrea mean it would be logical to have such color setting into the cfg file...
Now the cool think of such scripted system is that you can change on the fly the color palette without having to restart Celestia...

Andrea, for your show, you start Celestia with a specific cel script as start.cel?
Then you can always change your script in a .celx with first the color settings, something like:

[quote="ElChristou"]
I think Andrea mean it would be logical to have such color setting into the cfg file...
Andrea, for your show, you start Celestia with a specific cel script as start.cel?
Then you can always change your script in a .celx with first the color settings, something like:


Both replies are yes.
Regarding your suggestion, Chris, this looks very interesting, I forgot the possibility to insert cel commands in a celx file.
Here is very late now (2:20 AM LT), so I'll try it tomorrow.
Bye and thank you very much.

Andrea

Cham wrote:

ElChristou wrote:You can see in the instant if lines are "fighting" each others (same weight) or if their weight is different.
The logic tell me that orbits should be more present than guides in general, but perhaps I'm wrong?

ELChristou,

Celestia isn't a paint or a picture viewer program. The shades and "weight" depend on the uses. Very often, the planet orbits (as an example) are not what really matters. While leaving ON the orbits, some may want to see clearly the constellations. So the weight is extremely dependant on the context, not on some "static layers" concept (planets on the foreground and stars in the back, etc). Sometimes, the celestial grid becomes what is really important to locate some object, so its labels must be clearly readable. They aren't just "decoration" on the background.

Who talk of "decoration"?
The purpose of constellations is to help in finding stars, no?
The purpose of boundaries or of the Celestial grid is also to help in locating stars or any other object, right?
Now what do you look at? what is more important? the line that will help you or the object that you are searching?
Perso I think the guides MUST be visible to do their job but not at the cost of the objects themselves.
Since 1.5pre4 we are able to determinate clearly that guides are only guides and to me that means that they should not compete too much with a dim galaxy or simply with the orbit of the comet I'm following...
Now I do agree that labels of the grid must be visible of course.

ElChristou wrote:Now what do you look at? what is more important? the line that will help you or the object that you are searching?

Both ! The stars and the grid don't compete, they are complementary. When we need both at the same time, both must be clearly visible. Especially on the wall, in front of a large audience. And also on a simple PC screen. I'm not asking to have a vivid grid, but a visible one nonetheless. It's a matter of compromise.

And there happens some cases where the grid itself may become more important than the objects ! (when we have to explain what are the conventions used for the celestial coordinates, or to show all the various coordinates systems, for example).

ElChristou wrote:The purpose of constellations is to help in finding stars, no?

Not necessarily. The constellations may be seen as "objects" in their own right, with some historical signification (mythology, religion, etc). Sometimes, the chart itself (grid, constellation lines, borders) may be more interesting than the objects (stars) it's supposed to map.

The constellations borders are very much alike the countries borders on a terrestrial globe : In some topics, they may be more important that the countries details enclosed inside the borders.

EDIT : This reminds me a feature that could be fun, for the celestial grid itself : When you press the ";" key, the grid appears smoothly with some fade-in effect. When you turn it OFF, it goes away with a smooth fade-out effect, like in Stellarium.