The Great Geographic Names Debate.

[Spaceman Spiff]

In Celestia, we have the capability to display the names of certain surface features of planets and moons, so all those unfamiliar markings, bumps and dents can be correctly referred to. Of course for Earth, the matter is trivial. Or is it?

The story so far...

Ptarmigan started it all in this topic, when he raised the issue of the usual confusion over:

the UK(/Britain/England)

BlindedByTheLight helped out with ...

And for the differences between the terms UK - Britain - England:

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain.html

... and then I added:

Oh, thank goodness you sent that in clear that up! It's getting to be hard work explaining this even to Europeans.

One other item that the article did not cover: Why is Great Britain called Great Britain? It's not to do with the power of the British Empire. There are two Britains, so it is to distinguish the island from the other Britain: Lesser Britain. Where is this? No, not Eire, Bretagne!

... and then more queries about what to call all these geographical entities on our little planet Earth started coming up:

One thing bothers me though , etymologically [ ---8<--- snip! ] why did it not ever get called Greater (edit later - as in larger or extended *) Britain, which would have tied it in to Lesser Britain somewhat better ?

edit later* as in "Greater London" to distinguish from the "City of London" which is a much smaller place.

And, since you mention it, Eire , when should it be called "Eire" and when "Republic of Ireland" ?

Perhaps we should migrate to Purgatory with this, as it is just a tiny wee bit OT !!

... and so here we are, cursed in Purgatory to try and sort out what should be called what. And don't worry Ptarmigan, you spelt "etymologically" correctly.

To add to this growing list:

While we're at it; When should it be called, "The United States" and when should it be called, "America"?

So, shall we let the great debate begin?

Spiff.

[Jeam Tag]

So, shall we let the great debate begin? Spiff.

In France, we're usually speaking about 'Angleterre' instead of 'Grande Bretagne' or, better, 'Royaume-Uni' And I suppose there are some people in the far northwest of France who think that the only 'Great' Britain is... la Bretagne Jeam.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hmm, yes, Royaume-Uni must then refer to the name of the state that is the UK, but it's still a bit abbreviated for what is fully named in English as 'The United Kingdom Of Great Britain And Northern Ireland', or, er... UKGBNI for short. However, just to confuse everyone further, the term for nationality for anyone from the UK is 'British', and he/she is referred to as a 'Briton'.

Is my understanding correct, Jeam Tag, that the term 'rosbif' only applies to the English, not Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish? But what about the Cornish? I heard a funny story about a Cornish family that went to Bretagne in their car for a holiday. The car broke down in Bretagne. A local French family stopped their own car to assist the Cornish family. The Cornish family didn't speak French, so tried English, but the French family didn't speak English, so went back to their car muttering about incomprehensible English people - except the Cornish family could suddenly understand some of the words - and they weren't French words. The Cornish then spoke to the French in Cornish and were amazed that the French spoke back in their native Bretagny and they could understand it. Sorted! The connection between Bretagne and Cornwall goes back to before the Roman Empire. Think Asterix: I think his village was supposed to be near Bretagne. He goes to Britain with Obelix, and points out that the Britons are related to the Gauls, but don't be rude just because they speak a bit strange and have funny customs.

Onto outstanding matters...

Greater London: I think this is simply because London outgrew Middlesex only in the 20th century (1953?), by which time the former tradition of referring to the larger of two places as just 'Great Whatever' and 'Lesser Whatever' had changed (think Great Yarmouth, not Greater Yarmouth) to be more consistent. So, it might just be down to a change in fashion. Or, that there was a term 'Great London' already assigned, but abbreviated to 'London' to mean the conurbation that is more than the 'City of London'.

Eire: as far as I understand, Eire is the English name derived from Gaelic for the whole island (and unfortunately the word 'Ireland' sounds almost identical to the word 'island'), but the Republic of Ireland is that state which covers that island, less Ulster (which is 'Northern Ireland'). I think Irish people refer to both the state of the RoI and the island as Eirann in Gaelic (I'm missing some Gaelic characters from that spelling), because it refers to a hope that both Ireland's will be unified, but if Jack Higgins does get the Republic of Cork going, then I'm not sure!

The United States of America:

I have always felt the term "America" covered the whole northern continent.

The US has a similar peculiarity to the UK, in that the term for US nationality is only adjacently derived. The problem for the US is that using the term 'American' for its nationality overlooks the fact that there are several other states on the same geographic entity known as North America (and I count Mexico and the other small states as on North America, even though many argue that this should be separated as Central America). We can also note that in English, we refer to 'the Americas' because there are two Americas (or three if you also count Central America as well as South America). While 'Briton' can be applied to a Scotsman, this US oversight means 'American' applied to a Canadian has become ambiguous. I would rather agree with Don, but that didn't save Charlotte Church, who announced to thousands of Canadians at a concert that she was really glad to be in America. She was jeered by idiot Canadians, even though she was technically correct.

The use of the term 'American' to mean someone specifically from the US of A doesn't work well, and I think the US needs to think of a proper nationality, but I fear it could get silly...

Oh yes, and once again 'CNN-Europe' displayed a map showing 'ENGLAND' spread right across the UK and RoI. Pfff...

Spiff.

[Ptarmigan]

In Celestia, we have the capability to display the names of certain surface features of planets and moons, so all those unfamiliar markings, bumps and dents can be correctly referred to. Of course for Earth, the matter is trivial. Or is it?

Arghh!! We only just got here and now you try to put the discussion back on ( a Celestia) topic ! I think you have a good case, shall we go back to,, err, where did we come from ?! LOL! (insert jovial emoticons of your choice !)

The story so far...
Ptarmigan started it

Oi ! I protest, (Dons top hat and declares "Point of order, Mr Speaker") ,I did not !!
I said nothing about Great Britain, that was you. I merly observed that the OP who mentioned 'that word' was from England, I humbly tried to suggest that it was not a a term usually used in polite society in other English-English speaking adjacent regions ( as distinct from American-English and other Pidgeon-English speakers, of which I know little, but am constantly amazed at how they manage to trash the English language ! )
I mean, I would not want friends from overseas to come here and think that we all talked like that !
For example, I might be tempted to say to Don, in his hour of adversity, " Never mind Don, keep your pecker up", by which we would mean " Stay cheerfull Don, things'll get better" but a NorthAmerican might blanche at that suggestion. ?? But would a Canadian be so horrified ?

Why is Great Britain called Great Britain? It's not to do with the power of the British Empire.

I blame the Victorians, myself, for hijacking the term., and I blame Chamberlin, Churchill and Eisenhower for depriving the world of a great,, oh no, let's not go down that route !!

While we're at it; When should it be called, "The United States" and when should it be called, "America"?

I think that it should be called "The sometimes United States of some of North America" (what's the emoticon for tongue-in-cheek ? )

[Ptarmigan]

Eire: as far as I understand, Eire is the English name derived from Gaelic for the whole island (and unfortunately the word 'Ireland' sounds almost identical to the word 'island'), but the Republic of Ireland is that state which covers that island, less Ulster (which is 'Northern Ireland'). I think Irish people refer to both the state of the RoI and the island as Eirann in Gaelic (I'm missing some Gaelic characters from that spelling), because it refers to a hope that both Ireland's will be unified, but if Jack Higgins does get the Republic of Cork going, then I'm not sure!

Thanks for that Spiff, I did suspect that Eire might refer to the whole of the island, but I was not sure;and that sort of questioning over here can be a little, how shall we say, errr, politically sensitive ?

[Ptarmigan]

In France, we're usually speaking about 'Angleterre' instead of 'Grande Bretagne'

"Usually" does not make it correct !
It is often said that the only good thing about England is that it stops Scotland colliding with, (or joining with - to remember the auld alliances) ,France.


England, a small part of a small island off the northwest cost of Europe, created to allow space for Terry Pratchett to exist.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Arghh!! We only just got here and now you try to put the discussion back on ( a Celestia) topic ! I think you have a good case, shall we go back to,, err, where did we come from ?! LOL!

Well, the OT was by Don Edwards, and this isn't about what the OT was about, even if it is Celestian. I made the link so that this topic isn't too redundant.

Oi ! I protest,

Sorry, I meant you started an interesting discussion about names of places, a good thing, not a bad thing.

(what's the emoticon for tongue-in-cheek ? )

Code: Select all

:J

apparently, but that needs a serif font to work.

Spiff.

[Ptarmigan]

Arghh!! We only just got here and now you try to put the discussion back on ( a Celestia) topic ! I think you have a good case, shall we go back to,, err, where did we come from ?! LOL!

Well, the OT was by Don Edwards, and this isn't about what the OT was about, even if it is Celestian. I made the link so that this topic isn't too redundant.

Ah yes, you are right,
but I was just making a little jest, (on the assumption that Purgatory was the place for off-topic chit-chat etc you see) hence the :- "LOL! (insert jovial emoticons of your choice !) "
No worries,

Sorry, I meant you started an interesting discussion about names of places, a good thing, not a bad thing.

Ah I see, yes, good.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I've just noticed two more confusions concerning the UK by the world in general:

1. Currency abbreviations. A three letter acronym, the first two letters indicate a country and the last letter a currency name. E.g. USD = U.S. Dollars; DKK = Danish Kroner. UK Pounds Sterling is GBP, not UKP!

2. For some reason, the forum server at shatters.net is timestamping posts in GMT an hour ahead of actual. I think this is because many people think GMT goes an hour ahead in summer. It does not.

Spiff.

[Fightspit]

2. For some reason, the forum server at shatters.net is timestamping posts in GMT an hour ahead of actual. I think this is because many people think GMT goes an hour ahead in summer. It does not.

Spiff.

In France (where I live), we are at 2 hours after GMT's hour because we are in summer's hour even if the France is at GMT+1 on time zone's map.

[BlindedByTheLight]

If I'm not mistaken:

The "Americas" now, but not necessarily in the past, refer to both North & South America. This term usually includes the Caribbean and Greenland (but not Iceland).

SOME CAVEATS:

1) Some people still use the singular term "America" to refer to both continents. I believe that is falling out of disuse as it is ambiguous.

2) Many non-English-speaking countries consider the "Americas" not to be two continents but one (divided into 3 areas -- North, Central, and South America). Thus, they use the singular America to describe the entire landmass.

Furthermore, some groups - especially in South America - believe the United States' "appropriation" of the word is "culturally aggressive" and consider it an insult to suggest they, the South Americans, are not "American". In sum, these groups use the term "American" to represent members of the entire "New World".

The two issues I see are:

1) Can a word have more than one meaning?
2) Does a state have a right to declare its own name?
3) Is possession 9/10ths of the law as far as words go?

Working backwards... students of word usage will note there is no "right" or "wrong" as far as words go. If people are USING a symbol (i.e. a word) to represent a concept (i.e. a place)... than that symbol represents that concept. Period. Right or wrong, fair or not fair... doesn't really matter. A dictionary is simple a record of usage... and clearly many use the word "America" to describe the "United States of America". Just as many apparently use the word "America" to mean something else. To ignore those realities or try to deny those usages is simply to create confusion.

As for a state having a right to declare its own name... well, I'm not sure under what precedent (barring copyright issues) groups do not have the right to call themselves whatever they'd like.

As for one word having two meanings... I am unaware of any reason that the term "American" cannot represent a citizen of the United States of America AND any citizen of the Americas. Words often have multiple meanings. To argue with the idiot who says, "Dude... you're not American... you're from Chile" is as much of a waste of time as the idiot who responds, "Amigo, I am TOO an American! America refers to the entire landmass!" Both are technically true and common-usagely true.

America clearly means "United States of America" to many people while it also clearly means the entire landmass of "The Americas" to many people. If the meaning of usage is not apparent in context, one simply needs to clarify further.

In casual conversation, the issue is far less important, but far more complicated. Conversationally, in foreign counties, if people ask where I'm from I will usually say, "The U.S." But if I'm being roughed up by rogue government agents on false charges, I might indignantly scream, "What the f**k are you doing?! I'm an American citizen!"

However, rest assured, once I have been dragged down to the local police station and they ask me my country of citizenship I am NOT going to say, "The US" or "America"... it will be the full name of my country - "The United States of America" so there can be no misunderstanding which embassy to call.

The point? Context... usage... multiple meanings. I suppose it would be much better if we all spoke binary....

[Spaceman Spiff]

Er.. Blinded, do you want to reread what you wrote above and possibly edit it before we continue. You seem to have been in a rush...

Spiff.

[BlindedByTheLight]

Er.. Blinded, do you want to reread what you wrote above and possibly edit it before we continue. You seem to have been in a rush...

Spiff.

Eek... that sounded bad. Did I saying something offensive? I reread again and made a few grammatical tweaks... but did I leave something out? Did I inadvertantly make a Americo-centric faux paus? Was sarcasm not clear in sarcastic moments?

I eagerly await your reply.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Did I saying something offensive?

No, no! If I meant that, I'd have used an 'annoyed' emoticon, not a 'wink'emoticon. I usually reread and edit my posts several times before submitting to make sure spelling and grammar are correct, and no unintentional offence might be made. Guess I failed this time!

I meant it looks like you wrote everything so fast you didn't reread it:

The two issues I see are:

1) Can a word have more than one meaning?
2) Does a state have a right to declare its own name?
3) Is possession 9/10ths of the law as far as words go?

and

America clearly means "United States of America" to many people while it also clearly means the entire landmass of "The Americas" to many people. If the meaning of usage is not apparent in context, one simply needs to clarify further.

Now, here, I think I understand what you mean, but you actually bring out the matter of confusion perfectly right there.

This topic is about the confusions of geographical names applied to areas of the Earth and by states as well. It's not meant to be political. I was contrasting the case of the UK versus Great Britain against the USA versus America It's fortunate there would be no confusion in saying 'I'm from Britain' because Great Britain is wholly contained within the UK, but for the USA, America is not wholly contained within the USA... So, 'I'm from America' can be ambiguous. Of course, as you point out, people manage to get by. If someone said in English with an American accent 'I'm from America' I'd assume the USA. If they said that with a Spanish accent, I'd wonder what was meant.

Also, I was thinking about a future feature of Celestia where planetary surface locations were instead marked by outlines and translucent areas (overlays for e.g., 'Mare Imbrium, Moon'', 'Arabia Terra, Mars', 'Indian Ocean, Earth') rather than point labels, but we'd have to be clear about official and unambiguous definitions, or there'll be streams of complaints about the Earth's features...

I checked the Scriptures according to Bill Bryson ("Made in America"* by an American* on the history of the USA), and his historical summary shows that the term America came from a German mapmaker adopting the name of Amerigo Vespucci for the continent of South America. North America was not referred to as America at that stage. Even so, it seems the name was almost left as 'Ameriga'.

I do think 'America' meaning the USA doesn't work well. The most ideal solution I know is from asking an American* on how he indicated his origins: 'from the States'. Simple!

What I'd like to hear more of is US citizens referring to their actual state: Floridian, Texan, etc. The US is so large that when someone obviously from the US says 'I'm from America', I still wonder where exactly inside the US. It's also nice to know which time zone people from the USA and Canada are in as well when PMing them.

I think Greenland and the Caribbean are actually not suposed to be included in the Americas, and including them is a common mistake, but I'll have to check...

Definitely though, Greenland and Iceland are politically part of Europe, (due to those European agressors, the Vikings!), making the state of Denmark technically the largest EU state by geographic area (Greenland remains Danish sovereign territory).

I suppose it would be much better if we all spoke binary....

I think OS programmers would tell you the interpretation of binary is very much context dependent: executable, image, text document... sigh. I would say it would be much better if we all spoke German, because it's a language that is much more difficult to write ambiguously at a moderately informal level than English, but since Deutsche Post insist I write 'Gro??britannien' (i.e., Great Britain) when I post a letter to the UK it won't get my vote anymore.

Spiff.

* You just can't get away from it, can you?

[BlindedByTheLight]

No, no! If I meant that, I'd have used an 'annoyed' emoticon, not a 'wink'emoticon. I usually reread and edit my posts several times before submitting to make sure spelling and grammar are correct, and no unintentional offence might be made. Guess I failed this time!

Ah. I saw the wink and figured that meant you knew I hadn't said anything that I MEANT to be offensive... just that you were giving me a friendly, "Uh... did you really mean to say that nasty thing?"

Grammer and spelling? Yuck.

So, 'I'm from America' can be ambiguous. Of course, as you point out, people manage to get by. If someone said in English with an American accent 'I'm from America' I'd assume the USA. If they said that with a Spanish accent, I'd wonder what was meant.

I do think 'America' meaning the USA doesn't work well

Well, you probably hear U.S.A.'ians proclaim where they're from a lot more than me. Do people usually say "I'm from America" when identifying where they're from? It sounds so... "The Goofy Russian Character In An 80's Movie Who Gets His U.S. Citizenship And Proudly Proclaims He Is An American" to me, know what I mean? I usually only hear the word "American" when its referencing citizenship or identifying with a group ("I'm an American" / "I'm an American citizen" / "We don't burn books here in America (outside of Kansas)"). Or even the old "Made in America". When I hear people speaking in the context of referencing origins, I usually hear:

The most ideal solution I know is from asking an American* on how he indicated his origins: 'from the States'. Simple!

Like you said: "From the States" / "From The U.S." / "From New York"...

But like I said, you probably hear the answer a lot more than I do from travelling 'Americans' - so I will defer to your statistic.

shows that the term America came from a German mapmaker adopting the name of Amerigo Vespucci for the continent of South America

I do remember learning about good old Amerigo back in school. I had just assumed (or was told) the name came from him. Otherwise it was an awfully big coincidence... But thanks for the further info.

What I'd like to hear more of is US citizens referring to their actual state: Floridian, Texan, etc. The US is so large that when someone obviously from the US says 'I'm from America', I still wonder where exactly inside the US.

That's a very interesting issue - though I would say as fractured as this country is ideologically, the LESS identification with our own states we have and the MORE with the country as a whole is probably a good thing. Beyond that, though, you have brought up a very context-specific question. Texans seem to identity (both internally and externally) FAR more with their states than other citizens. I'm from Chicago, Illinois - but I would NEVER say I was from Illinois to anyone... I don't even THINK that way. "I say I'm from Chicago". Californias, where I now live, will usually identify themselves with their city when talking about origins OR latitude in the state ("I'm from Northern/Southern California") - but if the conversation is about anything political, "I'm from California" is usually what you'll hear - as California has a very progressive political system many of its citizens are proud of.

I could go on and on with that. However, I can't speak for anyone else, but when talking to people from other countries, I feel I'm being Americo-centric to assume they know much about our geography. Yes, I suppose I could say, "Well, this is the United States... - we're in the news a lot - people probably know Washington, New York... Los Angeles b/c of Hollywood" but still... I don't like to assume that. I mean... half of Americans don't know where these places actually are...

I think Greenland and the Caribbean are actually not suposed to be included in the Americas, and including them is a common mistake, but I'll have to check...

Definitely though, Greenland and Iceland are politically part of Europe, (due to those European agressors, the Vikings!), making the state of Denmark technically the largest EU state by geographic area (Greenland remains Danish sovereign territory).

Well, I guess it's all a matter of definitions... but I can't imagine there is anything wrong with a country being part of two continents (which I'm assuming comes from some root of "continuous" and applies to the landmass itself and is not a political term). Russia covers two continents. Greenland could easily be considered part of North America and also a political entity based in Europe.

I think OS programmers would tell you the interpretation of binary is very much context dependent

Dear me...

Also, I was thinking about a future feature of Celestia where planetary surface locations were instead marked by outlines and translucent areas (overlays for e.g., 'Mare Imbrium, Moon'', 'Arabia Terra, Mars', 'Indian Ocean, Earth') rather than point labels, but we'd have to be clear about official and unambiguous definitions, or there'll be streams of complaints about the Earth's features...

How about this for a start?

http://homepage.mac.com/stevendbinder/. ... verlay.zip

[Ptarmigan]

I do think 'America' meaning the USA doesn't work well. The most ideal solution I know is from asking an American* on how he indicated his origins: 'from the States'. Simple!

What about someone from Brazil (Brasil), he could be an American from the States,
ie. a _South_ American from the Estados Unidos do Brasil.
Not quite so simple after all

[Tanketai]

I've seen the word "estadunidense" written and spoken in spanish tv channels, and IIRC, even in spanish CNN.
I've also heard it a lot here in Brazil, and it's kind of becoming the unofficial way of calling US. citizens, usually tourists.
To people who don't know spanish, estadunidense would be something like 'unitedstadian'...

I would also add that estadunidense is also used as some sort of political prejudice; I just couldn't find a decent translation to 'pejorativo'.

In the matter of showing countries in celestia, I've decided to show only cities, as you can see here

(there are several other cities there, just hidden by distance)

There's no America, just 'Am?©rica do Norte' e 'Am?©rica do Sul'. I guess it's part of my hopes for the future... countries will unite, as the E.U. seems to be doing, and then all that will mater is where those big cities are.

[selden]

I just couldn't find a decent translation to 'pejorativo'.

I suspect the closest equivalent would be "pejorative."

[Spaceman Spiff]

Grammer and spelling? Yuck.

Grammar and spelling, sir! Grammar and spelling...

OK, well, in the following, I'll have to keep using the term 'American' to refer to folks from the States, because while thinking about these things in the past few days, I just couldn't find another substitute for 'American' when it comes to things like: "Truth, Justice and the American Way", "The American Dream", "Fellow Americans..."*. (Um, "Truth, Justice and the Colonial* Way." ) So even though I think it isn't ideal, the usage does seem to be stuck in a potential well of diction. But I think in the circumstances those phrases are used, it is clear what is meant.

Do people usually say "I'm from America" when identifying where they're from?

I seem to notice that. When youngs Americans* came over to Yurip as tourists, they often simply said "we're from America" in a kind of questiony way as though they weren't sure if we had heard of it. The more travelled and seasoned Americans do mention city, maybe state, because they're more familiar with our knowledge of geography (we're usually good on the East and West coasts with a hole in the mid-west, except Chicago, it is the news and Hollywood that does it, and those who don't know geography from those seem to not know much geography at all).

It sounds so... "The Goofy Russian Character In An 80's Movie Who Gets His U.S. Citizenship And Proudly Proclaims He Is An American" to me, know what I mean?

Ah! I didn't know you had that stereotype. Or was that 'Police Academy'? I would feel a similar irk at that, because if someone from the US tells me they're from America and leaves it at that, I feel I've been told nothing. Canadians could improve on "Canada" as well.

Which reminds me: an example of why 'American citizen' doesn't work well in connection to the continent/state thing is shown by that Charlotte Church incident. I tried to find a news archive link but couldn't. Remember I said: "...that didn't save Charlotte Church, who announced to thousands of Canadians at a concert [in Toronto] that she was really glad to be in America. She was jeered by ... Canadians...." So, was she right, or were the Canadians right?

Since it's the case that 'Statesiders' (ahem) do usually use the city and maybe state indication, I'd hope Americans would be courageous enough to try that first on us, and work from there. No one from Britain or Germany, etc. would say, "I'm from Europe." But, please never! refer to 'Londonengland'!

What about someone from Brazil (Brasil), he could be an American from the States,
ie. a _South_ American from the Estados Unidos do Brasil.
Not quite so simple after all

I was going to say ''Doh!' but then I realised that there's no problem for Brazil like the USA. First the EUB completely co-incides with Brazil, and second they always say "I'm from Brazil", not "I'm from the United States of Brazil."

I think another country where we'll have an increasing problem about where they're from is the Russian Federation. Russia was previously confused with the Soviet Union, and now it is confused with the Russian Federation. The RF contains Russia, but I think Russia does not straddle two continents, while the Russian Federation does...

...countries will unite, as the E.U. seems to be doing, ...

Haven't you heard the news yet? The Constitution referenda are failing and Tony Blair's got the EU Presidency!

Anyway, how do you describe where you are from re: 'Brasil'?

Spiff.

* I read some more of Bill Bryson's "Made in America" and he (quite correctly) points out that colonialists still thought of themselves as 'British' even in 1777. The term 'American' for US citizenship seems to have come about in this sense, and to quote Mr. B.:

In 1765 Christopher Gadsden of South Carolina lamented: 'There ought to be no New England men, no New York, etc., known on the Continent, but all of us Americans'. That he felt it necessary to articulate the sentiment is revealing.

So, maybe that explains the departure of 'American' from the meaning in geography.

[Jeam Tag]

OK, well, in the following, I'll have to keep using the term 'American' to refer to folks from the States

An alternate term is sometimes using in french, 'Etatsuniens' (and his declinations)... not the firts one, but very often for a long time in many media... Jeam