And the effect of this Quizz was...

[ElChristou]

Pfff... this situation begins to be ridiculous... Both Selden and Fridger are right...

It would be really time to go a step higher and do a real constructive work; this quizz stuff is not isolated; many threads have been lowering the level of this community recently, not only in P&A; as I have already said, my fear is not only the bad noise but the fact that the lost of quality in the image of the community can make flee some possible talents, and we really don't need such thing...

Please folks, if some decision at the respect could be taken it will avoid futur clash like this...

[Malenfant]

Such postings are one way to encourage "General physics and astronomy discussions not directly related to Celestia" which is the subtitle that Chris gave to the Physics and Astronomy Forum.

Well, it's certainly encouraged discussion - just not the kind that you thought it would... that should indicate that perhaps you misjudged that thread.

I do think that we need some rules for the P&A board to be stickied at the top. Just something to say "here's what's acceptable here and here's what isn't". Even just something along the lines of what I suggested - no games, no philosophical/metaphysical discussion, no crazy theories, no unscientific discussion - would provide some guidance. But right now there's nothing there at all to guide people.

I suppose you have informed Chris about your decision. So I don't have to bother. ...Probably, I'll do anyway

Again, I strongly doubt that Chris even cares about what's going on here.

[t00fri]

Yeah, I was waiting for this to come up soon or later. .

"Fridger chased from the Celestia Forum in dishonesty by "his majesty" for having responded to the moderator more than once ..."

No, it'd be a case of "User booted off a board because he argued with a moderator in public". This is how things work on many other boards.

Maybe it's just the way you're phrasing things, but you need to remember your place here. Your professional standing should not and does not have any relevance on any online forum - you're a user here just like everyone else (albeit one who has contributed a lot). But while you're a valued member of the community you have no more rights or privileges than anybody else. We're all equal here - apart from Selden who is a Moderator and Chris who is the Admin here. They're the ones in power, not you or me or anyone else.

Sorry, after this "lecture", I will surely not vote for you as moderator of the P&A board. That sounds really frightening...

Fridger, what makes you think that Chris even cares about this? That's why he made Selden a Moderator, because Chris didn't want to be hassled by Forum-related arguments.

That's the only one I'll still answer: since I am working with Chris since 4 years and tend to exchange (private) mail with him often several times/week. I think your views about the setup here are somewhat distorted occasionally.

Bye Fridger

[hank]

I thought I gave a clearcut response above.

While I don't entirely agree with the format of the specific quiz, I also don't think Purgatory is the appropriate place for such things.

Such postings are one way to encourage "General physics and astronomy discussions not directly related to Celestia" which is the subtitle that Chris gave to the Physics and Astronomy Forum.

Selden,

Earlier, on the quiz thread itself, you wrote

Just to keep everyone happy, I'd suggest that future quizzes be put in the "Purgatory" forum.
(I still don't think that Forum name is appropriate, but oh, well...)

That seemed very sensible. But if, at least for the time being, you think future quizzes should be put in the "Purgatory" forum, why would you refuse to move this one?

The subtitle for the Physics and Astronomy Forum refers to "discussions". I don't think a quiz really fits that description. That's not to say a quiz wouldn't be appropriate in another Forum, and perhaps a new one can be created for that kind of thing. But in the meantime, Purgatory seems the appropriate place (even though I don't like the name either).

So why not move it?

- Hank

[Malenfant]

Sorry, after this "lecture", I will surely not vote for you as moderator of the P&A board. That sounds really frightening...

Is this the only board you've participated in Fridger? Because really, this is how things work on other boards. Most times moderators are pretty relaxed, but on some forums I've seen and been on, discussions are culled all over the place. And in all cases, if rules are broken then people are booted.

The problem here is that there aren't any solid rules at all, so moderator decisions are entirely arbitrary. One could easily argue that Telepath broke the rules of the board by posting a quiz here, but one could also equally easily argue that you have broken the rules of the forum by arguing publicly with a moderator - but since no rules EXIST in a referable form, nobody really knows who's done anything wrong (if anyone).

That's the only one I'll still answer: since I am working with Chris since 4 years and tend to exchange (private) mail with him often several times/week. I think your views about the setup here are somewhat distorted occasionally.

Well if Admins and Mods are influenced by personal bias then that makes the whole thing a sham and a pretense. It just means that preference is given to an "in crowd" on a forum, that favoured members or cliques take precedence even if they break the rules, and so on. That's no way to run a forum (I've been on forums like that, and they are not good places to be).

If Chris has any balls he'd tell you to respect the Moderator's decisions - even if you don't agree with them. He may decide to work with Selden to establish some formal rules of conduct here after that which may ultimately vindicate your position, but you still have to learn when to back down. Otherwise there's just no authority on the board at all.

[selden]

One point of view (and I'm not claiming its mine) would be that the Celestia Forum should be limited strictly to discussions related to Celestia. No off topic discussions at all of any kind. This isn't a social forum. That's how the Forum originally was structured, after all.

If you want to discuss Physics and Astronomy, go to BAUT; if you want to discuss space travel, go to nasaspaceflight; if you want to discuss sunrise in Antarctica, go to VirtualTourist; if you want to discuss 3D modelling of spacecraft, goto SciFi-Meshes.

Discussions of other topics of mutual interest to people who already have one thing in common can be quite useful, however, and enjoyable. Nonetheless, they often invite other activities which are not so desirable.

[selden]

Hank wondered

So why not move it?

Because I've reconsidered and decided that it really does belong in the P&A forum.

For example, I think it would have been quite appropriate for someone to have taken each of the "questions" and explained what was mistaken about the concepts it was based on. Just because its author called it a quiz doesn't mean you have to treat it as one.

Arguing from a position of authority and just saying it's "low quality" isn't adequate. Nobody learns any Physics or Astronomy from that.

Nor does it raise the quality of the discussion. Instead, the readers are left to draw their own conclusions about the person who makes those kinds of statements. Conclusions that the writer may not have intended.

[Malenfant]

One point of view (and I'm not claiming its mine) would be that the Celestia Forum should be limited strictly to discussions related to Celestia. No off topic discussions at all of any kind. This isn't a social forum. That's how the Forum originally was structured, after all.

If you want to discuss Physics and Astronomy, go to BAUT; if you want to discuss space travel, go to nasaspaceflight; if you want to discuss sunrise in Antarctica, go to VirtualTourist; if you want to discuss 3D modelling of spacecraft, goto SciFi-Meshes.

Discussions of other topics of mutual interest to people who already have one thing in common can be quite useful, however, and enjoyable. Nonetheless, they often invite other activities which are not so desirable.

You could argue that . But I'd argue (and I'm sure most others would as well) that there's a middle ground between "Educational Celestia only"/"Celestia only" and "Anything goes".

Let's break it down: Celestia is a visualisation program, and in that program you have explicit support for many object types. Obviously, a forum about Textures is appropriate since that's how you do surfaces in the program. A forum about Addons is appropriate too, since Celestia is designed to be expandable. A forum about 3D Models specifically would also be appropriate, given Celestia's support for imported models and its own CMOD format. The Users board is a bit of a vaguely defined place, but it seems to be a board for people to discuss general topics about Celestia that aren't covered elsewhere. The rest are obvious - Scripting is to discuss issues with LUA and the other scripting languages that Celestia uses, Development is to discuss actual development of the core program and any spinoffs, and Bugs obviously is a place to report bugs in the program.

I'm quite sure that Physics and Astronomy was made as a place for people to ask questions about what they're actually seeing in Celestia that wouldn't have been appropriate on other boards. As such it's a good idea to keep that in its own forum because such information makes for a useful resource later on, and it's also quite appropriate to keep that forum around (and also, it supports Celestia's original goal of being an educational program).

Purgatory is the odd-man out here, since it really has nothing to do with Celestia itself. But apart from being a general 'off-topic chatter' it is useful as a dumping ground for threads that are inappropriate to the boards that they are posted on (like the quiz - heck, it wouldn't have been appropriate on ANY of the boards here other than Purgatory). And obviously we're talking about 'metaforum' matters on it too in this thread. So if Purgatory is to have a purpose then why not use it for that?

[Malenfant]

For example, I think it would have been quite appropriate for someone to have taken each of the "questions" and explained what was mistaken about the concepts it was based on. Just because its author called it a quiz doesn't mean you have to treat it as one.

That wasn't the issue with it though. The issue is that it was basically the equivalent of some random guy walking into a room (after spending a while listening outside to some obviously advanced discussion going on inside it) and saying "Hi! You have no idea who I am, but I'm going to "test your knowledge" with some really basic and vaguely phrased riddles". If someone did that to you in real life I'm sure you'd feel a bit put out by that.

Arguing from a position of authority and just saying it's "low quality" isn't adequate. Nobody learns any Physics or Astronomy from that.

It's pretty easy to demonstrate that it's "low quality" though. Er, at least it would be if Telepath hadn't removed the quiz questions/riddles... But I do remember that a couple of the questions was "there are other universes out there" and "there are stars wandering outside the milky way"... which means what exactly? These could be referring to anything at all - how is that educational or informative?

[rthorvald]

Purgatory is the odd-man out here, since it really has nothing to do with Celestia itself. But apart from being a general 'off-topic chatter' it is useful as a dumping ground for threads that are inappropriate to the boards that they are posted on (like the quiz - heck, it wouldn't have been appropriate on ANY of the boards here other than Purgatory). And obviously we're talking about 'metaforum' matters on it too in this thread. So if Purgatory is to have a purpose then why not use it for that?

Since i am not a big user of the P&A forum, and since both Selden and Fridger in my opinion have legitimate reasoning behind their respective decicions, i inteded to stay out of this discussion. But Malenfant has here written almost exactly what i stopped myself from posting yesterday, so there you have it. (The emphasis in the quote is mine).

- rthorvald

[selden]

I located Chris' original posting when he created the P&A forum and made it a sticky. It seems he didn't intend it to be related to Celestia. Which doesn't mean its intent couldn't be changed if he thinks that appropriate.

Mal',

The only way to improve the quality of a discussion is if you help improve it. Things that are obvious to you obviously aren't obvious to others.

[Malenfant]

The only way to improve the quality of a discussion is if you help improve it. Things that are obvious to you obviously aren't obvious to others.

Sure, and that's why I intend to stay on the P&A board. But at the same time, I'm not obliged to answer every single question there - I was kinda hoping that everybody would just ignore that thread but unfortunately someone responded to it and it looked like it would just turn into a random guessing game.

The stickied post isn't much use though - it just says "here's a forum for discussing physics and astronomy", and we need something more concrete than that. Here's something like what I would like to see myself:

------------------------------------------------------------------


Purpose: This board is intended for the discussion of Astronomy, Astrophysics, and Related Sciences. The emphasis should be on astronomical matters however, rather than general physics - though discussion of crossover fields such as astrobiology or planetary science are encouraged. While not explicitly stated, the following rules apply in reference to these subjects - other topics are not acceptable here.

Enforcement: The Moderator's word is final, and his opinions and decisions on a questionable thread will be based solely on interpretation of these rules, which apply equally to everyone on this board, regardless of who they are. Penalties for breaking these rules range from a warning to thread locking and temporary or permanent bannings, depending on the severity of the rule violation. Above all, the Moderator is not to be argued with.

ACCEPTABLE TOPICS

Links/Articles: Links to interesting news articles or images are encouraged. However, copying the contents of those links is not permitted due to copyright reasons.

Questions: All scientific questions about the universe are encouraged, whether they are basic or advanced in nature. However, remember that people who answer any questions are voluntarily giving their time to answer them, so to increase the likelihood of an answer questions should be phrased in a mature, respectable manner - at the very least, as if you were asking a teacher in a classroom. All posters are encouraged to cite legitimate scientific references (books, papers, science websites, wikipedia articles, press releases etc) wherever possible when responding to questions.

Worldbuilding: Discussion about various aspects of 'world-building' is encouraged so long as it is clearly based on the application of real science (i.e. 'hard science fiction"). Questions about the environments of certain types of world, lifespans of stars, composition of atmospheres, what a ten-billion year old planet would be like, appearance of planets etc are all examples of acceptable topics of this kind, so long as the explanations are based on real physics and scientific analysis and not pure conjecture.


UNACCEPTABLE TOPICS
Besides the topics that are generally not acceptable on the Celestia forums (i.e. spam, politics, religion, sexual content, profanity etc), other topics that are not acceptable on the P&A board are:

Metaphysics: Metaphysical or philosophical discussions - i.e. discussion for which there is (or can be, in some cases) no scientific proof or evidence to support any stance are not appropriate. "Why are we here", "Are we alone", "Is there life anywhere else" and so on are not acceptable topics, because they are either religious in nature or we have no evidence to support any conclusions yet. Basically, subjects that are based on conjucture, or people's opinions and beliefs have no place on this discussion board where the emphasis is on rational thought, physical proof and scientific data.

Science Fiction: While scientific discussion about aspects of the physical realism of fictional settings is acceptable, discussion of the actual settings themselves is not. If you want to talk about Star Trek, find a Star Trek forum .

Pseudoscience: Pseudoscience or 'personal theories' are unacceptable. There will be no discussions of Faces on Mars, alien visitations, hyperdimensional space stations around Saturn etc. Discussion of fictional technologies (e.g. warp drives, jump gates etc) is also not acceptable, unless the discussion concerns the scientific analysis of such things - e.g. Alcubierre drive, exotic matter wormholes etc. Also, don't argue with people if reality turns out to work in a different way to what you expected - for example, if you thought that stars were burning coals in the sky then don't protest when people tell you that the established scientific evidence is that they aren't - particularly if they cite papers to show that they are correct.

Games: This is a board for serious discussion of scientific topics - not for games, quizzes, riddles or other "challenges". If you feel the need to post such things, do so either elsewhere or in Purgatory.

Space Politics: To make it clear, discussion of space science policies is not acceptable here. These discussions often tend to get too political and heated.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Something along these lines (obviously this is just my opinion of what is and isn't acceptable here) would make things pretty clear, I think. As it stands it doesn't really rule out anything currently being posted to the P&A board (quizzes notwithstanding). What would people think of this?

[Dollan]

Metaphysics: Metaphysical or philosophical discussions - i.e. discussion for which there is (or can be, in some cases) no scientific proof or evidence to support any stance are not appropriate. "Why are we here", "Are we alone", "Is there life anywhere else" and so on are not acceptable topics, because they are either religious in nature or we have no evidence to support any conclusions yet.

Eh, THAT I can't agree with. To use your example would mean that the entire SETI branch of astronomy is little more than metaphysics, not to mention the search for life on Mars. "Why we are here" is vastly different from "Are we alone" and "Is there life anywhere else".

...John...

[Malenfant]

Eh, THAT I can't agree with. To use your example would mean that the entire SETI branch of astronomy is little more than metaphysics, not to mention the search for life on Mars. "Why we are here" is vastly different from "Are we alone" and "Is there life anywhere else".

...John...

Well, SETI itself is obviously science. Talking about the methodology of searching for extraterrestrial life would be perfectly acceptable.
Questions like "what would be the best thing to search for when looking for life on Mars" would be acceptable too, since that focusses on the same thing.

But the point - as has been amply demonstrated in past discussions on the subject on the P&A board - is that "Are we alone" or "Is there life elsewhere" are unanswerable questions - they are entirely based on opinion at the moment since we have no solid data at all. In practice, discussions about them tend to revolve around peoples' beliefs rather than on solid data. That's why I think they should be verboten topics, along with other subjects that are based primarily around belief and opinion. That sort of thing has no place on a science board IMO.

(I've edited my original "rules" to make this clearer)

A lot of this really is about how these sorts of questions are phrased. If you phrase them in a way that there's no scientific response to them then they're no good. If however you can focus the question on a specific scientfic topic then you can get somewhere.

[hank]

Hank wondered

So why not move it?

Because I've reconsidered and decided that it really does belong in the P&A forum.

My impression was that that was your original position. You initially wrote:

You'll notice that I didn't move this thread or delete it. I think it's fine where it is. Not everyone is an advanced amateur or professional astronomer. These kinds of things can be both entertaining and educational for many.

Then after a number of people indicated their disagreement about the appropriateness of a "quiz" in the P&A Forum, you suggested putting them in the "Purgatory" Forum as a compromise.

Just to keep everyone happy, I'd suggest that future quizzes be put in the "Purgatory" forum.
(I still don't think that Forum name is appropriate, but oh, well...)

I won't be moving this thread, ...

Your suggested compromise made sense to me, but I didn't understand why you didn't move the quiz. It seems to me that if you had done so, that probably would have ended the matter. Moving the quiz wouldn't have implied that it wasn't helpful to some, just that many felt it was misplaced.

For example, I think it would have been quite appropriate for someone to have taken each of the "questions" and explained what was mistaken about the concepts it was based on. Just because its author called it a quiz doesn't mean you have to treat it as one.

If the post had been presented in that way, I don't think it would have gotten the negative reponse. It was precisely the "guessing game" format that was objected to.

Arguing from a position of authority and just saying it's "low quality" isn't adequate. Nobody learns any Physics or Astronomy from that.

Nor does it raise the quality of the discussion. Instead, the readers are left to draw their own conclusions about the person who makes those kinds of statements. Conclusions that the writer may not have intended.

Again, the objection was to opening P&A to "games and entertainment". The original post from Chris explaining the purpose of P&A refers to "interesting discussion about astronomy". I just don't think guessing games fit that description. So I don't think the objections were unwarranted. And although they could have been stated more diplomatically, I think it's more useful to focus on the substantive issue (Where should quizzes etc. be posted?) than on the manner in which the issue was raised.

I think a big part of the problem here is the name "Purgatory", which tends to suggest that moving a thread there is a punitive action. A better name is needed, and also possibly a separate thread specifically for quizzes, etc.

- Hank

[Dollan]

I can see your point, but I can also see that it would be a dangerously gray area. Asking "Is there life elsewhere?" is the primary jumping off point for discussions revolving around where life might be found, what conditions lend themselves to the development of life, and so forth. Really, I personally see no difference between the above question and asking it in terms of looking for life on Mars or at 37 Geminorum.

I CAN see how it would easily devolve into a belief-fight thing, and that is where strict moderation would be required, with whatever sanctions are agreed upon. Nip the bud, in other words.

At any rate, I'm taking this off-topic again -- apologies. AND I get to go home for the evening! Woot!

...John...

[t00fri]

Something along these lines (obviously this is just my opinion of what is and isn't acceptable here) would make things pretty clear, I think. As it stands it doesn't really rule out anything currently being posted to the P&A board (quizzes notwithstanding). What would people think of this?

Wow, this "document" should be posted in GERMAN We are world famous for such hyper-administrative creations...

I hope this sort of thing will never spread into boards where I am still posting...Anyhow, you bet that Chris will never subscribe to something like this. He's fortunately a "free spirit" ... (so am I)

After reading that set of rules, it became suddenly clear to me why

++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Professors are rarely found in such forums"
as you wrote the other day
++++++++++++++++++++++++


To answer your earlier question: YES the Celestia Forum is the only forum I attend. So I have never seen such rules before. I am a "newbie" so to speak.


Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

I hope this sort of thing will never spread into boards where I am still posting...Anyhow, you bet that Chris will never subscribe to something like this. He's fortunately a "free spirit" ... (so am I)

After reading that set of rules, it became suddenly clear to me why "Professors are rarely found in such forums" as you wrote the other day

I really don't understand you, Fridger - as a scientist I would have expected you of all people to appreciate the necessity and purpose of rules!

All I'm doing is proposing some basic rules to clearly define what is acceptable etiquette on a forum, specifically to solve the problems you're making such a big deal about! Given that the alternative is a continuation of the arbitrary moderator decisions (and unfortunately Selden's decision is somewhat arbitrary) that you don't like, I really can't see why you're complaining about the relatively mild rules that I'm proposing?!

Rules like this are VERY common in forums, and believe me if you think these are harsh then you haven't seen anything - I've seen rules that are MUCH more 'oppressive' than this (and despite this, the forums they apply to still work rather well). You need them in larger communities (which is what Celestia has become) to establish what is and what isn't allowable.

(you want an example of how bad it can be, check out the scifi-meshes rules)

EDIT: I was being a bit harsh there, given that Fridger hasn't posted on other forums. But anyway, the point is that rules like this aren't unusual elsewhere...

[t00fri]

I hope this sort of thing will never spread into boards where I am still posting...Anyhow, you bet that Chris will never subscribe to something like this. He's fortunately a "free spirit" ... (so am I)

After reading that set of rules, it became suddenly clear to me why "Professors are rarely found in such forums" as you wrote the other day

I really don't understand you, Fridger - as a scientist I would have expected you of all people to appreciate the necessity and purpose of rules!

Such rules will NEITHER improve the quality NOR the attractiveness of the Celestia Forum, which is now running without such "administrative overload" since > 4 years.

++++++++++++++
Rather than a big package of rules, a good forum should have a convincing moderator who is NATURALLY RESPECTED on account of his personality and wide knowledge!
++++++++++++++

I do respect Chris for example, but certainly NOT because he happens to be the ADMIN of this forum

I was even told that some people in this forum do respect me, despite being only a simple user. Let's not talk about my professional environment...

The alternative is a continuation of the arbitrary moderator decisions (and unfortunately Selden's decision is somewhat arbitrary)

I had no problems previously to accept Selden's decisions. I found his arguments were always well reflected. Despite our present disagreement, I would always state that Selden is doing a very efficient job to keep "law and order" in this forum.

I for one have never been ashamed to seek advice among colleagues and other people that I respect, before making certain non-trivial decisions.

My main criticism as to today's Quizz issue, was that Selden did not do this, too, in a situation where he was insisting on his point against a respectable number of very reasonable users .

Bye Fridger

[Malenfant]

Such rules will NEITHER improve the quality NOR the attractiveness of the Celestia Forum, which is now running without such "administrative overload" since > 4 years.

Yeah, and that kinda proves my point exactly. In that time we've had Spambots running amok, countless flamewars (mostly involving us two, admittedly ), irrelevant topics on P&A... this is exactly what happens when you allow complete freedom to do anything that posters like. In fact, you've often complained about how things have not been run to your liking over the past four years.

Trust me, having fixed rules (not necessarily the ones I propose, I hasten to add) will VASTLY improve the quality and attractiveness of any boards - they make a vast improvement elsewhere, there's no reason whatsoever why they wouldn't here too.

Rather than a big package of rules, a good forum should have a convincing moderator who is NATURALLY RESPECTED on account of his personality and wide knowledge!

Trust me, that never works in practice. Without fixed rules or guidelines all that happens is that arbitrary, inconsistent decisions are made. While moderators usually are respected members of the community (unpopular moderators seldom last long), what gives them power is the fact that they are enforcing predetermined rules that everyone is aware of and has agreed to abide by registering on that board. That way when someone clearly breaks the rules they can be reported to the moderator who can then enforce them.

The approach that you suggest simply doesn't work in practice - especially if someone who doesn't know the moderator or the community comes along from outside and starts flouting the existing unspoken etiquette. What happens then is that they get chastised for their behaviour and then start complaining that they didn't know what they did was wrong because no rules existed for them to look at in the first place.

With all due respect, given your inexperience with how forums generally work, I think you should listen to people who do have experience with this matter. Just speaking for myself, I've been an active participant on at least 15 forums in my time, moderated at least three, and been booted off a couple for good measure too . I've seen it from all sides. Dollan's also had extensive experience with forums, I'm sure several others have here too.

I was even told that some people in this forum do respect me, despite being only a simple user. Let's not talk about my professional environment...

There is no doubt that you are a respected user of this forum. But the fact remains that you are still just a USER. You are not a moderator or an admin. And regardless of how well somebody is respected as a user, they are not above censure if they do anything that goes against the rules. If they were, then that would be incredibly unfair - if two people broke the rules in the same way and only one was punished for it because the other was 'a respected user' then what kind of reflection would that be on the community? Not a very good one, I can tell you.

You could be the ruler of a country in real life for all I care, but on a forum you're the same as everyone else and should not be treated any differently either. The same rules apply to EVERYONE - your status outside of this community has no bearing whatsoever on your status within it - all that matters is that you're either a user, moderator, or an admin. Of course the problem on *this* board is that there isn't much in the way of explictly defined rules .

I for one have never been ashamed to seek advice among colleagues and other people that I respect, before making certain non-trivial decisions.

My main criticism as to today's Quizz issue, was that Selden did not do this, too, in a situation where he was insisting on his point against a respectable number of very reasonable users.

This forum isn't run by a committee though - it's effectively run just by Selden, since Chris seldom takes any active role in the forum administration. And Selden, being the sole moderator here, has no obligation to consult with anyone else at all when he makes a decision. On boards with multiple moderators, they usually *do* discuss things in private before a decision is made however.

Again, because you're unfamiliar with how online forum communities generally work you've got entirely the wrong idea about how things are generally run.