Could other worlds have caves? Mars has or had water, so maybe it could have caves if there were rocks the water could dissolve. Could there be any caves like the ice caves on earth at the icy worlds in the outer solar system?
Brendan
Caves at other worlds?
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Evil Dr Ganymede
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I've often wondered about this myself... You may get some kind of hole on active icy worlds like Triton if you have a geyser blowout, but I can't picture how you'd get a cave-like thing on Europa or Ganymede or Callisto. AFAIK you need flowing liquid to make a cave, don't you?
Mars might have them, assuming the caves haven't been filled in/eroded/collapsed in the time since water last flowed through them
Mars might have them, assuming the caves haven't been filled in/eroded/collapsed in the time since water last flowed through them
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granthutchison
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Evil Dr Ganymede
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eburacum45
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Evil Dr Ganymede
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eburacum45 wrote: You might get lava tubes on Io; otherwise I dont see much cave forming opportunity in our system (but it would be nice to be proved wrong).
I forgot about those... you will get those on the Moon (in fact, partially-covered lava tubes have been imaged on the moon's surface), possibly on Mars too. And probably on Venus as well.
Sorry to say that, but there are no chances to find any relevant cave structures on other planets.
You may remember that there are two building models for caves:
Primary caves are formed by surrounding a empty space with material.
Secondary caves are formed by hollowing solid material by some process.
Examples for primary caves are formations created by tufa on source horizonts, lavatubes, or more simply by a rockfall that leaves empty spaces between big rocky blocks.
Example for secondary caves are what we commonly understand as caves or cave systems - formations that where formed inside limestone.
Almost all relevant cave structures we know on earth are limestone caves (there are a few minor gypsum caves, but these are quite unstable and don't get very old), because limestone is the only rock material that can be chemically disolved, and form hollow structures in a time rate faster than weathering would destroy them. This chemical process involves CO2.
The CO2 has to be washed out of soil to get a resonable amount that allow the chemical process to be started. Atmospheric CO2 isn't enough by far. So to point out:
No Limestone - no caves.
No CO2 - no caves.
Limestone can be regarded as sedimentation material formed by organics. CO2 is created in relevant portions only by some kind of organics. So as to come to the conclusion:
No life - no caves (as we usually think of them).
What you may find are lavatubes, and some rockfall caves, created for example by collapsing of small chasms or rifts. Sorry if I dashed your hopes on that.
maxim
You may remember that there are two building models for caves:
Primary caves are formed by surrounding a empty space with material.
Secondary caves are formed by hollowing solid material by some process.
Examples for primary caves are formations created by tufa on source horizonts, lavatubes, or more simply by a rockfall that leaves empty spaces between big rocky blocks.
Example for secondary caves are what we commonly understand as caves or cave systems - formations that where formed inside limestone.
Almost all relevant cave structures we know on earth are limestone caves (there are a few minor gypsum caves, but these are quite unstable and don't get very old), because limestone is the only rock material that can be chemically disolved, and form hollow structures in a time rate faster than weathering would destroy them. This chemical process involves CO2.
The CO2 has to be washed out of soil to get a resonable amount that allow the chemical process to be started. Atmospheric CO2 isn't enough by far. So to point out:
No Limestone - no caves.
No CO2 - no caves.
Limestone can be regarded as sedimentation material formed by organics. CO2 is created in relevant portions only by some kind of organics. So as to come to the conclusion:
No life - no caves (as we usually think of them).
What you may find are lavatubes, and some rockfall caves, created for example by collapsing of small chasms or rifts. Sorry if I dashed your hopes on that.
maxim
Last edited by maxim on 13.10.2004, 21:25, edited 1 time in total.
Maxim,
There are more types of caves than are dreamt of in your philosophy
See http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Cave
There are more types of caves than are dreamt of in your philosophy
See http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Cave
Selden
Well, as I said: 'as we usually think of them'.
Of course there are other type of cavelike structures. As you might agree, chalk, loess and salt can form only quite short living types (hundreds of years) of no great extend. And at least salt requires some big preceeding oceans for sedimentary formation. The others need at least water for sediment forming.
Cavelike formations found in dolomit, marble (both limestone derivations with greatly reduced ability of chemical weathering) or granite are (same as sea caves - which require oceans as well) usually small structures formed mostly by mechanical erosion caused by water, and rarely more than some dozens of meters in horizontal extension. So more of a rain shelter than what one might call a cave
I've corrected the confusion I did to lavatubes in my post above.
maxim
Of course there are other type of cavelike structures. As you might agree, chalk, loess and salt can form only quite short living types (hundreds of years) of no great extend. And at least salt requires some big preceeding oceans for sedimentary formation. The others need at least water for sediment forming.
Cavelike formations found in dolomit, marble (both limestone derivations with greatly reduced ability of chemical weathering) or granite are (same as sea caves - which require oceans as well) usually small structures formed mostly by mechanical erosion caused by water, and rarely more than some dozens of meters in horizontal extension. So more of a rain shelter than what one might call a cave
I've corrected the confusion I did to lavatubes in my post above.
maxim
Seeing illustrations and B-movies, you might expect that there is some chance to find some bigger cave structures inside the slopes and cliffs of vulcans. Unfortunately this is a myth.
Those depicted caves all have clear structures of karstification processes as they are usually to be found in limestone formations. There is definitely no limestone inside vulcans, so these caves are highly unreal. Of course magma and gases can form huge chambers inside vulcanic rock. But these can't be regarded as caves. First the are filled - either with fluid magma or with hot gases. Second, both magma and gas is under high pressure while filling the chambers. As soon as they find a way out, thus reducing the pressure, the chamber will almost certainly collaps instantly.
So if you think it may be possible to imagine a cave system consisting of some big stable magmatic chambers interconnected by several lava tubes, you will find this VERY unlikely to exist. If such a construct will ever be found anywhere, it will sure be not only become a famous place inside the related solar system, but for the whole galactic sector
maxim
Those depicted caves all have clear structures of karstification processes as they are usually to be found in limestone formations. There is definitely no limestone inside vulcans, so these caves are highly unreal. Of course magma and gases can form huge chambers inside vulcanic rock. But these can't be regarded as caves. First the are filled - either with fluid magma or with hot gases. Second, both magma and gas is under high pressure while filling the chambers. As soon as they find a way out, thus reducing the pressure, the chamber will almost certainly collaps instantly.
So if you think it may be possible to imagine a cave system consisting of some big stable magmatic chambers interconnected by several lava tubes, you will find this VERY unlikely to exist. If such a construct will ever be found anywhere, it will sure be not only become a famous place inside the related solar system, but for the whole galactic sector
maxim
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julesstoop
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Comets might have cave-like formations. If their make-up is not homogenous, which is quite likely.
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