Celestia Forums

In a recent article at Space.com, researches at the Mt. Wilson observatory noticed that the diameter of the red giant star Betelgeuse has decreased by almost 15%. They are at a loss as to why this is happening. I wonder if this means Betelgeuse might be in it's death throes...

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/090609-betelgeuse-measurements.html

Sen wrote:I wonder if this means Betelgeuse might be in it's death throes...

I hope so.
Not that I so much want the star gone, but it would be fascinating to observe!

Hungry4info wrote:

Sen wrote:I wonder if this means Betelgeuse might be in it's death throes...

I hope so.
Not that I so much want the star gone, but it would be fascinating to observe!

... and it would certainly be interesting/useful to have a black hole to study at such close range.

Chuft-Captain wrote:

Hungry4info wrote:

Sen wrote:I wonder if this means Betelgeuse might be in it's death throes...

I hope so.
Not that I so much want the star gone, but it would be fascinating to observe!

... and it would certainly be interesting/useful to have a black hole to study at such close range.

Well not really "good", hopefully we would observe a nove with a neutron star remainder (it would be astonishing it it turns out that the nova had occured a while ago and the light/image of the event would arrive in the next few years).

Chuft-Captain wrote:

Hungry4info wrote:

Sen wrote:I wonder if this means Betelgeuse might be in it's death throes...

I hope so.
Not that I so much want the star gone, but it would be fascinating to observe!

... and it would certainly be interesting/useful to have a black hole to study at such close range.

Just wait a little until the LHC@CERN is back up again

Fridger

t00fri wrote:

Chuft-Captain wrote: ... and it would certainly be interesting/useful to have a black hole to study at such close range.

Just wait a little until the LHC@CERN is back up again

Fridger

... a bit TOO close for comfort Did you forget about NIF ?

Chuft-Captain wrote:

Hungry4info wrote:

Sen wrote:I wonder if this means Betelgeuse might be in it's death throes...

I hope so.
Not that I so much want the star gone, but it would be fascinating to observe!

... and it would certainly be interesting/useful to have a black hole to study at such close range.

But would it produce a black hole, or a neutron star?

zhar2 wrote:Well not really "good", hopefully we would observe a nove with a neutron star remainder (it would be astonishing it it turns out that the nova had occured a while ago and the light/image of the event would arrive in the next few years).

Why not "good"? What could be bad about this?

ajtribick wrote:

Chuft-Captain wrote:... and it would certainly be interesting/useful to have a black hole to study at such close range.

But would it produce a black hole, or a neutron star?

Depends on how much stellar mass gets blown away by the initial explosion I guess. I'm not sure that these matters are strictly deterministic. (ie. Even when all the pre-conditions are right for a black hole, there's an element of chance.)

Or to put it simply...

ajtribick wrote:But would it produce a black hole, or a neutron star?

YES.

Chuft-Captain wrote:

t00fri wrote:

Chuft-Captain wrote: ... and it would certainly be interesting/useful to have a black hole to study at such close range.

Just wait a little until the LHC@CERN is back up again

Fridger

... a bit TOO close for comfort Did you forget about NIF ?

Hardly, since I have enough photon science in front of my office door

http://zms.desy.de/research/photon_scie ... x_eng.html
http://zms.desy.de/research/photon_scie ... x_eng.html

Fridger

Chuft-Captain wrote:

zhar2 wrote:Well not really "good", hopefully we would observe a nove with a neutron star remainder (it would be astonishing it it turns out that the nova had occured a while ago and the light/image of the event would arrive in the next few years).

Why not "good"? What could be bad about this?

Well i certainly dont know what would be the "danger" range from a blackhole (it could end up traveling this way) but i would think (based nothing on mere assumtion/ignorance (in the sense that im no physist but still gathers how a blackhole works), the destructive power of a wormhole and fear) that 400/600 ly are to close for comfort.

zhar2 wrote:

Chuft-Captain wrote:

zhar2 wrote:Well not really "good", hopefully we would observe a nove with a neutron star remainder (it would be astonishing it it turns out that the nova had occured a while ago and the light/image of the event would arrive in the next few years).

Why not "good"? What could be bad about this?

Well i certainly dont know what would be the "danger" range from a blackhole (it could end up traveling this way) but i would think (based nothing on mere assumtion/ignorance (in the sense that im no physist but still gathers how a blackhole works), the destructive power of a wormhole and fear) that 400/600 ly are to close for comfort.

Your unfounded fear is probably from watching too many Sci-Fi shows.
The reality is that the Nova and the resulting stellar remnant is likely to have no more impact on us than the star currently has (other than positive outcomes such as in the study of Black Holes).
The only potential risk to Earth is if the spin axis of Betelgeuse was pointing towards Earth (and it's not). The Nova WILL however have a devastating effect on any life that happened to exist within several parsecs of Betelgeuse (so perhaps the biggest threat to civilization on Earth is the flotilla of Betelgeusen refugee ships arriving sometime in the next few thousand years )

it could end up traveling this way

What do you suggest could make it do such a thing?

Do not confuse novae and supernovae. They are entirely different phenomena.

Chuft-Captain wrote:Your unfounded fear is probably from watching too many Sci-Fi shows.

Probably, but i would think that the concequences of a blakhole encountering the solar system would be disastrous from a biased human & survaivalist point of view.

Chuft-Captain wrote:The reality is that the Nova and the resulting stellar remnant is likely to have no more impact on us than the star currently has (other than positive outcomes such as in the study of Black Holes).
The only potential risk to Earth is if the spin axis of Betelgeuse was pointing towards Earth (and it's not). The Nova WILL however have a devastating effect on any life that happened to exist within several parsecs of Betelgeuse

I knew that bit, probably well just see a very bright star and nothing else (though probably brighter than the nova observed in 1006).

Chuft-Captain wrote:

it could end up traveling this way

What do you suggest could make it do such a thing?

Well i dont know betelgeuse's motion but assuming its population 1 (which got regular orbits and velocity around galaxy as far as i know) and if the blackhole retains the motion of the star i assume it wouldnt , sorry.

Apparently Betelgeuse is a runaway star, probably kicked out of the Orion OB1 association when a former companion star itself went supernova.

Alas, there does not appear to be a free version of this paper

zhar2 wrote:

Chuft-Captain wrote:The reality is that the Nova and the resulting stellar remnant is likely to have no more impact on us than the star currently has (other than positive outcomes such as in the study of Black Holes).
The only potential risk to Earth is if the spin axis of Betelgeuse was pointing towards Earth (and it's not). The Nova WILL however have a devastating effect on any life that happened to exist within several parsecs of Betelgeuse

I knew that bit, probably well just see a very bright star and nothing else (though probably brighter than the nova observed in 1006).

I think I saw a prediction somewhere (can't remember where) that if this nova occurs, then due to it's close proximity it is likely for a short period of time to be as bright and as large as the Moon.

*Goes outside, finds Betelguese, extends hands to Betelguese*

THE POWAH OF PLUTO COMPELS THEE! SUPERNOVA I COMMAND YE!

If only it were that easy.

So Bob Berman of Astronomy magazine is wrong?He said that Betelgeuse will explode as type II supernova.It would influence mutations and alter the course of evolution.Also he said the star would be as bright as the Moon,but concentrated in one single point,so it wouldn?t safe to see it unprotected.The night sky would be blue,too...


[quote="Chuft-Captain][/quote]Your unfounded fear is probably from watching too many Sci-Fi shows.
The reality is that the Nova and the resulting stellar remnant is likely to have no more impact on us than the star currently has (other than positive outcomes such as in the study of Black Holes).
The only potential risk to Earth is if the spin axis of Betelgeuse was pointing towards Earth (and it's not). The Nova WILL however have a devastating effect on any life that happened to exist within several parsecs of Betelgeuse (so perhaps the biggest threat to civilization on Earth is the flotilla of Betelgeusen refugee ships arriving sometime in the next few thousand years )

it could end up traveling this way

What do you suggest could make it do such a thing?[/quote]

A type II supernova is indeed the expected outcome of the stellar evolution of Betelgeuse. A nova is definitely NOT on the cards: a nova is a fusion reaction that takes place at the surface of a white dwarf of matter accreted from a companion star, so Chuft-Captain's insistence on shortening "supernova" to "nova" is wrong and misleading.

All that stuff about altering the course of evolution and mutations, I don't know. Depends on many factors.

May I ask why it wouldn't be safe to look at a supernova with the naked eye?