Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

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Hungry4info
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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #21by Hungry4info » 10.11.2010, 22:21

Ageyer, note the scales we're working at here.

Puck has an angular diameter of ~0.0116 arcsec.
Pluto has an angular diameter of ~0.106 arcsec.
Titan has an angular diameter of ~0.741312 arcsec.

So I would expect your Titan image to be about 7 times better than your Pluto image, which I would expect to be about 10 times better than your Puck image. Yet your images are all about the same in clarity. Can you explain this?

abramson went through the effort of explaining why this "techinque" is flawed here, you should read this post.

ageyer wrote:Assuming that at a certain moment the atmosphere is bound to stabilize,when it does, it could be used as a magnifying glass for these small diametered objects and the "point of light source"could be spread evenly outward in a way that the true face of the object will come across clearcut and pristine.
Even if this did make sense, it would be an issue of being selective about what you choose to be the "real" image. The (constantly distorted) appearance of the star fluctuates around so how do you pick and choose what image you want to think of as 'magnified'?
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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #22by t00fri » 10.11.2010, 22:32

ageyer,


ageyer wrote:Hello Fridger

First of all,I didn't open this thread.Whoever did, was talking about a giant gash on Pluto.If it belonged here or not should have been decided then,not now.
I was specifically referring to your HMIR claims within this thread. This part should be moved.
Second,We don't stack up images.We use just one chosen among hundreds(apparently you didn't pay much attention to what I said, let alone watch the Io video).
It was not really clear in what you wrote. I naturally assumed you were stacking the hundreds of consecutive pictures you took. The only other sensible alternative is to select one picture among many, having least atmospherical disturbances. That is also a known technique in the context of video recording of bright objects which I mentioned earlier. Neither option will help enough as to your claims...
Third,the point of light source is a known concept in astro-imaging.I can direct you to a few of these explanations if you're interested in learning. about it.
Of course what we know in physics is a "point light source", but NOT a "point of light source". The latter expression does hardly make sense to me from an English point of view, but OK English is not my native language. Yet all my professional work is carried out in English...
And please note, I have published a number of scientific papers on theoretical optics and I am a vivid astro-amateur since my early youth ;-)
A point (light) source obviously has negligible extent. In practice, any light source that is a large distance away from the observer (compared to its extent) effectively turns into a point (light) source. A star would be a typical example of a point light source. Is this what you mean with a "point of light source"??

Fourth,just because you are a physicist,doesn't qualify you to question the merit of a grounbreaking technique such as HMIR.
If I am not qualified, who else should be? ;-)
It seems that you should brush up with your narrow view of new methods for astro-imaging.
Another JOKE ;-)

Fridger

PS: If I look at Mars or Saturn through my 8" Celestron telescope, take into account it's focal length (~2000mm) and the focal length of the eyepiece then these planets have precisely the correct size in the focal plane as calculated with any decent emphemeris software (Celestia!). This observation of Mars, Saturn,... is however subject to the same "atmospheric magnifying glass" effect that you argue to magnify Pluto's size enormously! How that?

Honestly, why don't you try to convince some people in other forums...
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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #23by ageyer » 11.11.2010, 15:34

"All it takes is some basic understanding of current technological progress, and what the bodies actually look like (so as to tell your images are not real). Your image of the asteroid belt especially gives it away. Asteroids are quite simply not packed that tightly together in the Main Belt. Your images resemble a cartoon more than reality."

It's funny that ever since we published the asteroid belt image on SPACENOW suddenly everyone became an asteroid expert.
We had an extensive discussion with a professional astronomer that insisted that those lights were stars and not asteroids.
It was so satisfying to prove him wrong!
First because an asteroid's luminosity behaves totaly different from a star's luminosity.If you want to find out how ,download the asteroid belt image and invert it to negative on CCDops.Then slowly fade out the luminance knob and see what happens.You will see that their albedo(they're not self luminous),in black, disappears unlinearly and off- center (as opposed to a star's light) to the point where you can see the contours of the objects and in some cases even the ferrous asteroids's orifices.
This particular one is located to the upper right of Vesta(the brightest of the image)and it hardly needed any processing.
Oh,of course,I'm assuming that if you(asteroid expert)are saying that those are not asteroids,then they can only be stars,right ? So prove me wrong.Do as I told you and let's see if they behave any different with your program(I'm also assuming you have one and know how to handle it).

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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #24by ageyer » 11.11.2010, 15:49

Hello Fridger

I just read your last post and will address it shortly.
English is not my native language either but we can carry on in german if you will .It's my favorite language anyway.(SPACENOW has a german rendition).
Right now I'm a little pressed ,as far as time ,and will respond later to your comments.
But let me start to deconstruct your convictions right away.
Just read the previous post I sent and try doing that experiment with your equipment.It's the best way to clear things up.Hands on experience.
Let's not stay with just rethoric.

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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #25by Hungry4info » 12.11.2010, 00:27

ageyer wrote:It's funny that ever since we published the asteroid belt image on SPACENOW suddenly everyone became an asteroid expert.
You don't have to be an expert, and I don't know what image you're talking about. These aren't uncommon knowledge. Spacecraft traverse the asteroid belt all the time, many of them never coming close enough to another body to resolve it any more than a few pixels.

ageyer wrote:We had an extensive discussion with a professional astronomer that insisted that those lights were stars and not asteroids. It was so satisfying to prove him wrong!
I'm beginning to see from this discussion that the feeling of your belief that you've proven the professionals wrong is more a default belief, and not one grounded in any reality.

We are explaining to you why this is nonsense, you're ignoring it, and continuing to think we're wrong.

ageyer wrote:Oh,of course,I'm assuming that if you(asteroid expert)are saying that those are not asteroids,then they can only be stars,right ?
I never said they were stars. But it's certainly not an image of asteroid. Asteroids aside, we've pointed out several inconsistencies for which you have yet to explain. You are proposing something that if true, would be revolutionary. The burden of proof lies on you, dear, for it is you who are making an extraordinary claim, and one that contradicts established science and evidence.

ageyer wrote:Do as I told you and let's see if they behave any different with your program
Sure we can do that, but it doesn't validate the image of the asteroids.

ageyer wrote:I just read your last post and will address it shortly... [snip!] ...Let's not stay with just rethoric.
Now hang on! I've made direct questions that you have yet to answer. Do so now. If you want to convince us of the validity of your techinque, you must handle the questions that challenge it, not ignore them.

And what will you think if New Horzions flies by Pluto and no such gigantic mountain as you describe is seen?
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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #26by abramson » 12.11.2010, 01:22

ageyer wrote:Let's not stay with just rethoric.
My observation was not rethorical.

1. Can you explain why, in your image of Enceladus, the geisers are pointing ar an angle which is at least 70 degrees from the body axis? Those geisers rise from very near the south pole. And what is the similar plumes rising from the opposite side, giving that no geisers exist near the north pole of the moon? Or are you claiming that your technique is even better that taking a picture from Cassini flying right over the place? If you claim that, we should just give up, there is no point in continuing this conversation.

2. I have looked at the asteroids picture now. It's difficult to believe that you convinced an astronomer that those are asteroids. Two of them are half as big as Vesta. Half as big as Vesta? What the frak? I downloaded the raw image right away to check the time: 2008-09-07T07:47:17.000' / GMT. Fine. Right to Cartes du ciel. Picture the sky arounf Vesta at that time. Field of view 5 degrees, to say something. Vesta is mag 7. There is a star mag 5 in the field, Menkar, in Cetus, 2 mags brighter than Vesta. There is no such star in your picture, so the field of view is covered. OK. How many asteroids are there within 5 degrees from Vesta? Two: Kypria and Moira. Excellent names. Unknown sizes. Magnitudes 15 and 22, respectively. Magnitudes fifteen and twenty two, I repeat. So, that picture is not of Vesta as claimed. Ergo, you are deluded by your image processing. At best.

Perhaps we should just drop it. My belief is that you are deluded by the artifacts of your image processing (oh, I had already said that). At best, if you know what I mean.

Cheers,

Guillermo

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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #27by Fenerit » 12.11.2010, 01:29

ageyer wrote:First because an asteroid's luminosity behaves totaly different from a star's luminosity.If you want to find out how ,download the asteroid belt image and invert it to negative on CCDops.Then slowly fade out the luminance knob and see what happens.You will see that their albedo(they're not self luminous),in black, disappears unlinearly and off- center (as opposed to a star's light) to the point where you can see the contours of the objects and in some cases even the ferrous asteroids's orifices.
This particular one is located to the upper right of Vesta(the brightest of the image)and it hardly needed any processing.

This doesn't prove nothing, like Venus is of the same apparent magnitude both in full phase as well as in quarter. Do you have tried such technique on Venus? How behave the threshold?
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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #28by abramson » 12.11.2010, 02:16

Oh, my, how did I miss that one before? I have just seen the picture of Titan. Of Titan! Titan's surface cannot be seen even from Cassini!

I am tempted to start using harsher words with ageyer. Let's move on. :evil:

Guillermo

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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #29by Fenerit » 12.11.2010, 02:27

abramson wrote:Oh, my, how did I miss that one before? I have just seen the picture of Titan. Of Titan! Titan's surface cannot be seen even from Cassini!

I am tempted to start using harsher words with ageyer. Let's move on. :evil:

Guillermo
Yep! :wink: The Pluto's mountain must be the Purgatory's mountain climbed by Dante Alighieri after its trespass through the Hell (the mythologic Pluto's reign).
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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #30by t00fri » 12.11.2010, 11:03

I suggest we don't vast more time with this nonsense. Also for the sake of preserving the good standards of this forum!

I wrote an email to our moderators with the request of moving this stuff to some "isolated" place.

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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #31by ageyer » 05.09.2011, 16:58

Hello again debaters

This is to update you on SPACENOW's latest image of Pluto's giant mountain.
We've covered 3\4 of Pluto's full rotation.The gigantic mountain that we've been discussing, is seen in two different positions (edge on and head on).
We are now prospecting the remainder of our countless images of Pluto to finish off the last piece of Pluto's entire rotation.

http://spacenow.com.br/pluto6.html

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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #32by Hungry4info » 06.09.2011, 00:23

The fact that this shows Pluto having a rotation axis that is not inclined relative to the plane of the sky alone demonstrates that the techniques you are using are flawed. It is well known that Pluto's rotation axis is highly inclined toward us.
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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #33by ageyer » 06.09.2011, 02:21

Pluto's 68? tilted axis is known for a long time and in SPACENOW's Pluto's full rotation, all 5 images corroborate that fact beyond any remaining doubt.The surface features also repeat themselves in every single consecutive shot.

making perjorative comments about forum members is not appropriate. comment deleted ...Selden

The recently discovered two other mountains explain why Pluto maintains an inteligible rotation .One at the northern polar circle and two more around the equator,separated by a quarter of Pluto's circumference.

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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #34by W0RLDBUILDER » 06.09.2011, 23:10

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Last edited by W0RLDBUILDER on 08.12.2011, 21:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #35by Fenerit » 06.09.2011, 23:30

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #36by LordFerret » 13.09.2011, 21:59

Sorry, I don't mean to stir the pot here, but...

ageyer kept referring to HMIR as a "technique". After reading this thread I was curious so I did some searching on Google, I could not find any such technique. What I do find is a High Temperature Midwave Infrared (HMIR) Camera Engine manufactured by Teledyne Imaging Sensors of Thousand Oaks, California. Is this what ageyer is referring to?... this device coupled to his 14" telescope?

Apparently this person has been making the rounds...
http://cs.astronomy.com/asycs/forums/t/48071.aspx?PageIndex=1
http://twitter.com/#!/solarview

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Re: Could Pluto have a giant gash in it?

Post #37by Tegmine » 06.12.2011, 12:47

I ain't buying it...Maybe we're better off waiting for New Horizons (which is over halfway there). I'm looking forward to seeing how it REALLY looks.

This "technique" seems more like wishful thinking/extreme hypothesizing.

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