Celestia Forums

I still have some homework on the LEM, I'll also start the instruments but meanwhile it would be cool to find some more hires doc of the Saturn, specialy the 3rd stage and specialy the 3rd's stage engine...

After looking at the last few images of instruments on ground, I have determined this aprox positions; what do you think?
The ? point is part of the Lazer reflector? (can be see in AS11-40-5952HR.jpg)

(Click to enlarge)

ElChristou wrote:After looking at the last few images of instruments on ground, I have determined this aprox positions; what do you think?
The ? point is part of the Lazer reflector? (can be see in AS11-40-5952HR.jpg)

No Chris, it's not.
I have seen that object in other images, and if I don't mistake it may be something used to carry the instruments packages, or to dig the soil, don't remember exactly.
Anyhow I'll check and inform you later.
Bye soon.

Andrea

Wow! With this team, i am sure the result will be fantastic...

- rthorvald

ElChristou wrote:....it would be cool to find some more hires doc of the Saturn, specialy the 3rd stage and specialy the 3rd's stage engine...

I'm not sure if the quality of these is sufficient to meet your modelling needs, but here are some images showing the aft end of Douglas Aircraft's S-IVB and Rocketdyne's J-2 (engine):







cs

ElChristou wrote:After looking at the last few images of instruments on ground, I have determined this aprox positions; what do you think?
The ? point is part of the Lazer reflector? (can be see in AS11-40-5952HR.jpg)

Well, I was wrong.
After checking some hundreds EVA Training images, finally I found it:
it's the
"Stereo Close-Up Camera- Stowed in the MESA is a 35mm stereo close-up camera which shoots 24mm square color stereo pairs with an image scale of half actual size. The camera is fixed focus and is equipped with a stand-off hood to position the camera at the proper focus distance. A long handle permits an EVA crewman to position the camera without stooping for surface object photography. Detail as small as 40 microns can be recorded. A battery-powered electronic flash provides illumination. Film capacity is a minimum of 100 stereo pairs. The stereo close-up camera will permit the Apollo 11 landing crew to photograph significant surface structure phenomena which would remain intact only in the lunar environment, such as powdery deposits, cracks or holes and adhesion of particles. Near the end of EVA, the film casette will be removed and stowed in the commander's contingency sample container pocket and the camera body will be left on the lunar surface.".

I have to say that this is the first time I read somnething on this, and moreover I've never seen any stereo image taken during Apollo 11 Mission with this camera.
Anyone has seen one?
Here are the only three images I found up to now:



on right with arm extended

I hope this be enough for modelling it, Chris, so I'll stop further search.
Now I'll give a look at the ground positioning of the experiments.
Bye

Andrea

CurlSnout wrote:

ElChristou wrote:....it would be cool to find some more hires doc of the Saturn, specialy the 3rd stage and specialy the 3rd's stage engine...

I'm not sure if the quality of these is sufficient to meet your modelling needs, but here are some images showing the aft end of Douglas Aircraft's S-IVB and Rocketdyne's J-2 (engine):cs

Whow cs, surely Chris will appreciate these images, I think there is all he needs, IMHO.
Well done and many thanks, appreciated indeed.
Bye

Andrea

Whow, very, very cool guys, all this will help a lot!
Many Tx!

ANDREA wrote:..."Stereo Close-Up Camera- .
I...I've never seen any stereo image taken during Apollo 11 Mission with this camera. Andrea

Just for curiosity I searched for stereo close-up images from Apollo 11, and here they are (bottom of the page):
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/expmoon/Apollo1 ... raphy.html
ADDED LATER:
I forgot to inform you that they are anaglyphs, so you'll need red-blu or red-green filters on your eyes.
Bye

Andrea

Awesome work!

Quick question though.

Will the seperation of the panels that surround the LEM (I don't know their names, lol) be animated? Or will Celestia have a few "frames" showing that?

Like on linuxm@n's Soyuz docking mission, where the cosmonaut transfers spacecraft. The cosmonaut actually didn't move, it just showed him in several positions over a few minutes.

If you want to have realistic seperation, you could probably have a model showing the panels intact, then at a certain time sequence, replace it with a model of them gone. At the same time the model is replaced, have a seperate model for the panels in the same position, and when the panels are released, have them move in an elliptical orbit kind-of thing. Or perhaps use an XYZ editor to get more realistic effects.

Hungry4info wrote:Awesome work!

Quick question though.

Will the seperation of the panels that surround the LEM (I don't know their names, lol)...

...just read the above posts...

Hungry4info wrote:...be animated? Or will Celestia have a few "frames" showing that?

Like on linuxm@n's Soyuz docking mission, where the cosmonaut transfers spacecraft. The cosmonaut actually didn't move, it just showed him in several positions over a few minutes.

If you want to have realistic seperation, you could probably have a model showing the panels intact, then at a certain time sequence, replace it with a model of them gone. At the same time the model is replaced, have a seperate model for the panels in the same position, and when the panels are released, have them move in an elliptical orbit kind-of thing. Or perhaps use an XYZ editor to get more realistic effects.

The ideal would be some xyz trajectories of course, but this on the Linuxm@n side, so we will see later...

ElChristou wrote:After looking at the last few images of instruments on ground, I have determined this aprox
positions; what do you think?

Chris, I gave a look at the images, and I think you reached a close simulation.
But searching all around I found in the NASA Press Kit- Release #69-83K- Released on Sunday, July 6 1966, that you can find here:
http://nho.ohn.free.fr/celestia/Andrea/APOLLO11pt1.pdf
that the two Hasselblad 500 EL Cameras, used by astronauts on the Moon, had both a fixed 38mm f/4.5 Zeiss Biogon Super Wide lens, giving a field of view of 71?°x71?°.



So, i was thinking if it could be possible to try this way:
you should set the LEM and instruments mockups on the Moon surface, as in your above picture, then open the image in Celestia, set the FOV at 71?°, put the observer on the Moon surface, and check the result with the real images, repositionings what needs, if any.
A nonsense, or this could be really done?
Your opinion, please.
Bye

Andrea

Chris, regarding the SIVB engine and backside, here is something that will delight you:







This is not a mockup for exposition, it's the real thing, the original images are here:
http://www.cloudster.com/RealHardware/S ... rnSIVB.htm
here:
http://www.cloudster.com/RealHardware/S ... s4b148.jpg
and here:
http://www.cloudster.com/RealHardware/S ... s4b139.jpg

Here you'll find the images of the module production, from the beginning to the final fire tests:
http://www.cloudster.com/RealHardware/S ... nents5.htm
and here:
http://www.cloudster.com/RealHardware/S ... mento2.htm

Note the number of red round tanks in the third image.

Enjoy!
Bye

Andrea

Ok, I think that's enought for the 3rd stage engine; I cannot do a super hires of the stuff because of FPS, but it will be quite nice I promise!

ANDREA wrote:Chris, I gave a look at the images, and I think you reached a close simulation.
But searching all around I found in the NASA Press Kit- Release #69-83K- Released on Sunday, July 6 1966, that you can find here:
http://nho.ohn.free.fr/celestia/Andrea/APOLLO11pt1.pdf
that the two Hasselblad 500 EL Cameras, used by astronauts on the Moon, had both a fixed 38mm f/4.5 Zeiss Biogon Super Wide lens, giving a field of view of 71?°x71?°.



So, i was thinking if it could be possible to try this way:
you should set the LEM and instruments mockups on the Moon surface, as in your above picture, then open the image in Celestia, set the FOV at 71?°, put the observer on the Moon surface, and check the result with the real images, repositionings what needs, if any.
A nonsense, or this could be really done?
Your opinion, please.

Yes, I was thinking in checking the position within Celestia, and I'm also thinking in the main features on ground; there are some little craters, some big rocks, so perhaps it would be cool to see the whole thing... Don't know yet the details on how to achieve the whole scene, but...

In your scenario/depiction - after the LEM lifts-off from the Moon, will the flag be knocked over as well?

Hello and thanks for all the documents they will be very useful.

Some words to speak to you about my friend Gilles Mor??re who occupies with me calculations on the N1 rocket. Gilles is of formation scientific and I succeeded in hanging it to celestia. It carries out a complex programe for calculations of celestia's orbit ssc and xyz. Some among you perhaps saw the results obtained with my docking of Soyuz and the lift-off of the N1 rocket.

Currently, the program is in rebuilding and we refine calculations manually.( very long )

Will the seperation of the panels that surround the LEM (I don't know their names, lol) be animated? Or will Celestia have a few "frames" showing that?

Like on linuxm@n's Soyuz docking mission, where the cosmonaut transfers spacecraft. The cosmonaut actually didn't move, it just showed him in several positions over a few minutes.

Hope we can do better, for the cosmonaut it is easy, but for opening pannel on Saturn V it will be more difficult.

My N1-Lune-beta3 will be ready in a few days (Lift-off , separation stage and go on the Moon)

You can have a look on calculation program (old version)

PLEASE JUST CONSULT NO MODIFICATION


http://celestiasws.free.fr/orbite/


I must see Gilles tonight, hope he has good news.
Sorry for my english language.....

Happy to work with Andr?©a and El Christou


Linuxman

LordFerret wrote:In your scenario/depiction - after the LEM lifts-off from the Moon, will the flag be knocked over as well?

Linuxm@n? possible? (en fran?§ais, si le drapeau peut ??tre couch?© lors du d?©collage de l'AS...)

ElChristou wrote:

LordFerret wrote:In your scenario/depiction - after the LEM lifts-off from the Moon, will the flag be knocked over as well?

If the flag must lie down on the ground at the time of takeoff it is just a fast rotation, I think that it is easily realizable

linuxman

Not easy but coming well...

(Click to enlarge)

ElChristou wrote:Not easy but coming well...

I'm sure that it is not easy. But you guys make it LOOK easy. I'm really looking forward to having such a nice 3D model.

Thanks for showing us these work-in-progress shots; I myself am unskilled in such construction but somehow I derive some vicarious enjoyment seeing it come together, step-by-step, at your hands. I enjoy the same whenever linuxm@n provides new details regarding his 'Back in USSR' packs.

cs