Celestia Forums

Fenerit and Cham...
These add-ons are very beautiful, thank you both.

It would be great to see all eight planets in a line - each showing the internal structures and each in their original size. as an educational add-on.

And is it not possible that the altsurface command can also change the model as well as the map, so this could be used as an alt earth
rather than a complete extra earth running alongside the real earth?

Really nice work. It's definitely a very useful extension. But... (there is always a "but"...).

You see, I think that this extension is too perfect. It copies the popular model of Earth interior, with sharp edges between layers etc. This model is wrong. The interior of our planet is very very dynamic. So I think that the idea of this extension is very good, but the current model should be the first step.

Please check this link:

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/mantle.html

What's especially interesting:

"No one has ever seen the turbulently swirling liquid iron of the outer core meeting the silicate rock of the mantle--10 times as far below ground as the International Space Station is above--but the cross-disciplinary study led the researchers to estimate the temperature there is a white-hot 3,700 degrees Celsius."

I hope it will help to make your extension more realistic.

Hi, all. Thanks s3nn0c for the critic. Surely this addon can be improved with more accurate data, but the parsimony on they and some uncleary definitions about the terminology to be employed rest ourselves. The motivations with which I dealt with this addon has been that of a lack of similar model in Celestia and even among some commercial software, without consider the input gave to me by the Cham's Magnetic Earth whose addon I consider a complement of mine. The "break" is classic one for this purpose since from the first half of XX century. Some "eye candy" are impossibles because the 3d meshes do not permits some operation; e.a bumps, specular, etc. that could serve for certain needs. An animate outer core - lower mantle melting flows I don't know what could be fictional as now in absence of data, at least also only seeing it somewhere. But shall see what i can do.

For Darkmiss:

The only thing that you can do is the "alpha sphere" metod with which I've made originally the addon. But this metod do not permit the bumps, VT and other features, thing that a lot of people necessarily needs to be there; otherwise an empty PNG altsurface map should suffice for vanish a most external sfere texturized with an Earth map so that the interior shows itself.


For Cham: As far as concern the Magnetic Earth, what do you think about the field lines inside now? Ops, I forgot: I'm downloading your work only now, then I tell you what think about.

The magnetic field is extremelly complex inside Earth, and we aren't sure of the true configuration yet. There's no way I can do field lines inside the globe. However, I may adapt my field lines to show them on the exterior side only. The globe may become messy, however, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to show the external field lines at the same time as the interior of Earth.

It would be cool if there were a posibility to add the earths interior and the magnetic earth and so on as "alt planets" with a shorcut that works just like the texture resolution.

i.e.
A defined key for (-) and the same defined key + shift for (+); or only one key that changes between the available planets...

Thanx, Anders

tech2000 wrote:It would be cool if there were a posibility to add the earths interior and the magnetic earth and so on as "alt planets" with a shorcut that works just like the texture resolution.

i.e.
A defined key for (-) and the same defined key + shift for (+); or only one key that changes between the available planets...

That's the "layer" concept that I asked some times ago. Custom classes of objects, along the "spacecraft", "moon", "asteroid", etc ...

Cham wrote:Here's a link to the English version :

http://nho.ohn.free.fr/celestia/Cham/Ea ... ucture.zip (4.9 MB zip file)

Cham, it's very nice, but has the big problem, at least for me, that the text in embedded in the 3ds files so, being absolutely ignorant on 3ds texturing I'm unable to change it.
I've given a look using Alteros 3D 2.81 3ds Viewer, but no more.
Do you think that there could be some future possibility to have text in a different way, or not?
If not, I'll need to modify the jpg textures by Fenerit.
Thank you for your reply.
Bye

Andrea

Andrea,

the text is embeded in the model because it's MUCH nicer this way, than some pixelized letters on a texture. It's scale independant. You can get very close to the model (to inspect the core, say), and the text doesn't get blurry. Personally, I hate text on a texture, which becomes all blurry at close range.

I can make an italian version of my model if you want. You'll need to tell me the exact words for each sentence in the model. I'll give a link for you here. Just tell me.

Cham wrote:Andrea, the text is embeded in the model because it's MUCH nicer this way, than some pixelized letters on a texture. It's scale independant. You can get very close to the model (to inspect the core, say), and the text doesn't get blurry. Personally, I hate text on a texture, which becomes all blurry at close range.

And I agree with you, the text this way looks waaaaay better, and this is the reason why ....

Cham wrote:I can make an italian version of my model if you want. You'll need to tell me the exact words for each sentence in the model. I'll give a link for you here. Just tell me.

.... I'm very happy to accept it, this solves my problem.
You are very kind indeed to offer me this solution.
The translation should be:

Upper mantle= Mantello esterno
Lower mantle= Mantello interno
Outer core= Nucleo esterno (could it be in dark red color? The white lettering almost disappears over the very clear background, as equally happens to the "2270 km" radius, "R 1216 km" and "-5160 km"?)
Mohorovicic discontinuity= Discontinuit?  di Mohorovicic (could it be in white color, for coherence with the color of "Upper mantle" and "R 5671 km")
Gutemberg discontinuity= Discontinuit?  di Gutemberg
Lehmann discontinuity= Discontinuit?  di Lehmann

Two little (I hope) added requests/suggestions:
Inner core= Nucleo interno (this is missing in the image, perhaps it could be put halfway between "Fe, Ni" and "Lehmann discontinuity" text).
Moreover I see that you don't give the Upper Mantle's elements, while you do it with the other regions.
Well, I think that it could be interesting to show that it's composed of
"O, Si, Mg, Fe, Al, Ca" as they are in decreasing percentage, what do you think about?
Can you please insert this too, if this doesn't create problems?
Thanks a lot once again, very appreciated.
And , please, take your time, no hurry here.
Bye

Andrea

Andrea,

I agree about the chemical composition list. I'll correct it.

A detail : in italian, are you using a "." or a "," as decimal separator ? There's a difference between English and French, for example : 3.1415 in English, and 3,1415 in French. This is stupid, but ...

Cham wrote:Andrea, I agree about the chemical composition list. I'll correct it.

Nice, happy that you agree.

Cham wrote:A detail : in italian, are you using a "." or a "," as decimal separator ? There's a difference between English and French, for example : 3.1415 in English, and 3,1415 in French. This is stupid, but ...

Cham, in Italy we use the comma "," for decimals, but I didn't ask for this change because I already asked for so many changes....
If you want you can let numbers as they are, it will be sufficient that during shows I'll inform the students that the dot means the decimal comma.
As you prefer, everything is OK for me.
Bye and thank you very much.

Andrea

Andrea,

the italian version will be ready in ... 10 min !

About the chemical list, I'll use O, Si, Mg, Fe, Al only. I removed the Ca for an aesthetical reason, and because that element isn't so common (relative to the others).

Link here soon.

Andrea,

here's the italian version :

http://nho.ohn.free.fr/celestia/Cham/Ea ... talian.zip (4.9 zip file)

Test it and tell me if there's anything wrong. Take note that I've made some aesthetical compromises, since there's isn't much space on the model to write everything (and we don't have to, since the teacher must say something !). There's no nead to tell the name of the internal core, since it's an obvious part ! Writing it's name there will make the model confused with too much stuff on it.

Cham wrote:Andrea, here's the italian version :
http://nho.ohn.free.fr/celestia/Cham/Ea ... talian.zip (4.9 zip file). Test it and tell me if there's anything wrong. Take note that I've made some aesthetical compromises, since there's isn't much space on the model to write everything (and we don't have to, since the teacher must say something !). There's no nead to tell the name of the internal core, since it's an obvious part ! Writing it's name there will make the model confused with too much stuff on it.

Cham, if you would be a nice girl I'd like to express my gratitude and appreciation with a kiss, but you are a man like me, so... I can only say you
THANKS A LOT, CHAM!!!
It's perfect, everything is written correctly, you changed the dots with commas too, and I agree that the "Inner core" would make things confused.
Only one consideration, regarding the Mantle elements: from my sources, the Ca percentage is higher than Al, 2.3% versus 2.2%.
Just FYI.
Bye

Andrea

ANDREA wrote:THANKS A LOT, CHAM!!!

regarding the Mantle elements: from my fonts, the Ca percentage is higher than Al, 2.3% versus 2.2%.

You're welcome !

Hmmm, the Ca % is a bit annoying. The problem is I had to make a choice, since 6 elements in there would make the model to "heavy", on an aesthetical way (too confused, too much clutter). Maybe I should replace the Al to Ca, but this is really minor, especially since we currently don't really know the chemical composition in there. That model is already a gross representation of the real thing, with sharply defined layers, sizes and radius, etc. That's the kind of stuff, we, as teachers, have to say to our students anyway.

Cham wrote:

ANDREA wrote:THANKS A LOT, CHAM!!!
regarding the Mantle elements: from my fonts, the Ca percentage is higher than Al, 2.3% versus 2.2%.

You're welcome !
Hmmm, the Ca % is a bit annoying. The problem is I had to make a choice, since 6 elements in there would make the model to "heavy", on an aesthetical way (too confused, too much clutter). Maybe I should replace the Al to Ca, but this is really minor, especially since we currently don't really know the chemical composition in there. That model is already a gross representation of the real thing, with sharply defined layers, sizes and radius, etc. That's the kind of stuff, we, as teachers, have to say to our students anyway.

Cham, I was asking you neither to add Ca, nor to change Al with Ca.
But I'm Italian, you know, so I prefer the wonderful Carrara marble (Ca!) to the ugly (even if useful) aluminum products.
It's a matter of taste.
Obviously I'm jocking, it's OK as it is now.
BTW, what will be the next wonder?
The new spaceship?
It's for Mars exploration, like your Kepler; Copernicus, Sagan, or for other destinations?
I'm very curious.
Bye.

Andrea

ANDREA wrote:

Cham wrote:BTW, what will be the next wonder?
The new spaceship?
It's for Mars exploration, like your Kepler; Copernicus, Sagan, or for other destinations?

I was planning a permanent space station in orbit around Mars, as complement to the Kepler and co. However, since I'm experiencing some other depth sorting problems with Celestia CVS (that bug again !?), I may put that new project on hold for some time. My motivation is pretty low right now. I was also planning a Sun interior addon, but this one may be too boring. It's not really worth it, I guess. And I'm still waiting for Chris to correct the bugs in his recent sprites code and other aspect related to CMOD rendering. It's just not working, while my computer is perfectly capable to render sprites. Chris doesn't seem to be very interested in Celestia development and it's becoming very frustrating with addon creation, so I may stop any new addon creation for an unknown period of time..

Cham wrote: ... However, since I'm experiencing some other depth sorting problems with Celestia CVS (that bug again !?), I may put that new project on hold for some time. My motivation is pretty low right now. And I'm still waiting for Chris to correct the bugs in his recent sprites code and other aspect related to CMOD rendering. It's just not working, while my computer is perfectly capable to render sprites. Chris doesn't seem to be very interested in Celestia development and it's becoming very frustrating with addon creation, so I may stop any new addon creation for an unknown period of time..

Be patient, Cham, I'm sure that in a short time we'll be surprised by the next 1.5.3 prerelease characteristics, and I'm equally sure that your problem will be solved.
Take your time, Cham, you have produced a lot of wonderful things in the last months, so a short "holiday" from Celestia would be probably worthwhile.
And, BTW, tomorrow morning about fifty 18 years old Italian students will enjoy yoiur Earth interior addon, so thank you from all of them.
Bye soon.

Andrea

For a reply to someone, this model of interior and Magnetic Earth do not have need of extras feature for the default texture, even because as surface textures are much more appropriates maps like topology, crustal boundaries, bathymetry an so on. As long as 3d meshes do not permit advanced feature, the willings of Darkmiss cannot be satisfied.

As noted by s3nn0c here: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/mantle.html

I've update the inner-core texture. Link here

http://www.bestsharing.com/files/TDrffp ... p.zip.html

Cham wrote:I've done an English version. I can now edit the text easily.

Before publishing the addon, I need someone with some autority in geology to confirm the values used for everything here : temperature, density, radius, depth and chemical composition (elements, not molecules please, since wrting FeO, Al2O3, SiO2, etc will become messy on the model).

Very, very nice work! There are multiple applications of the technique to other solar system bodies.

The description based on molecules could get quite messy, since we are talking about crystalline material of the same or similar fomulae, but with a different density based on the size and configuration of the crystal lattice.

There is a very readable description of the interior of the Earth in Richard Fortey's book, Earth: An Inimate History. If you would like to converse more about this off-list, I'd welcome the chance. I am a geologist and geoscience educator.

FYI - Generally speaking, discontinuities mark areas of a rapid change in seismic velocities.

On a related note, it might be useful to label the static model (as you have shown) on one side, and a dynamic model (lithosphere, asthenosphere, etc.) on the other side.

Question - could one model vertical convection? Descending subducted plates? It would be cool to combine the magnetic Earth model with convection cells in the outer core. Not that I have any idea how to do this, but it would be cool for geologists and Earth science teachers.

Eric