ASCC

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starguy84
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Re: ASCC

Post #41by starguy84 » 26.02.2011, 07:37

ThinkerX wrote:The rest seem evenly split between wide Common Proper Motion pairs (talking separations on the order of hundreds to thousands of astronomical units, possibly a light year or two in some instances) and close binaries, with orbital periods on the order of a couple decades to a couple centuries. Only a couple dozen of the systems I looked up had actual published orbits; I think I dug up enough measures (anywhere from four to eight) to make at least rough guesses for the orbits of another hundred or so.

Where are these measures coming from? Three measures is (theoretically) enough to determine a binary orbit, but there's also the issue of systematic differences between positional references that have nothing to do with orbital motion or proper motion.

I wonder if those objects with separations up to a light year or two are actually members of a moving group. There are a bunch of loose ones near the Sun (Sirius/Ursa Major, Castor, TW Hydra, Beta Pictoris, AB Doradus, Argus/IC2391, the Hyades, the Pleiades; out of that, only the Pleiades and maybe IC2391 are gravitationally bound).

18,000 systems. By most estimates, at least 3500 of those should be double or multiple star systems. Yet...even if I accept the Tycho flags as valid (which I'm leery of, because aside from the flags themselves, I can usually find no measures or even other evidence of duplicity for those systems) and count the Linear/Optical systems as doubles, I still have only about a third that number - around 1400 or so. Discount the unsupported Tycho Flagged systems and the opticals...and its probably fewer than 1200. Which means that either:

1) there are a whole bunch of double systems that some how missed getting counted; or

2) there are vastly fewer double star systems out there than the estimates usually allow for.

As I understand binary fractions, they go from something like 75% in "field" O stars, to just under 50% for G stars, to maybe 33% for M stars, so those numbers are a LOT lower than expected. The party line would be option 1; somehow the doubles are just not getting counted. There are three places they could be going:
1.) Too faint for ASCC to have picked up, either wholesale, or because the primary swamped them
2.) Too close for ASCC to have picked up
3.) Companions that were simply missed (maybe the PM was wrong)

Given that nature seems to have a propensity for making equal-luminosity binaries (although I'm not completely convinced that's not just a selection effect; they ARE easier to find), I suspect the vast majority are just too close for ASCC to determine. 0.25" can hide 25 AU at a distance of 100 pc.

Lest you wonder why they would all come so close, I recall from presentations by Geoff Marcy and others that the distribution of planetary and stellar companions are similar; it's really the 100 and 800 AU binaries that need explaining.

ThinkerX wrote:Been trying to find online copies of the BDS and ADS without luck. (Rather strange, since ADS numbers are a common means of identifying double stars even now).

The WDS is supposed to be the continuation of the ADS and BDS catalogs; it should have everything ADS and BDS had.
http://cdsarc.u-strasbg.fr/viz-bin/Cat?B/wds
I would just go there, unless you want historical separations for stars also in the WDS, without going through the hassle of asking WDS for the information (which appears to indeed be the only way)

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ThinkerX
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Re: ASCC

Post #42by ThinkerX » 27.02.2011, 00:27

Where are these measures coming from? Three measures is (theoretically) enough to determine a binary orbit, but there's also the issue of systematic differences between positional references that have nothing to do with orbital motion or proper motion.

Oldest and newest measures are from the WDS - thats what they give. The CCDM will, about half the time, provide a middle measure for the binaries that have been known long enough to have an entry in the ADS or BDS. With many systems, that is three measures spread out over a 100 - 200 year period. That, in my view, is usually enough to determine whether or not a system is optical (or 'Linear' which seems to be the new term), common proper motion or CPM, or an actual binary.
For additional measures...most of them come from papers linked to in each star entry (mostly in French - despite not really speaking the language I am gaining a understanding of the written form) and assorted catalogues at VizieR, also linked to in each entry. I have also been looking through a couple other catalogues at the Double Star Library (4th Inframetric (Sp?) Catalogue) which has a lot of Tycho measures. Because the position angles and distances for some of the really close pairs (less than 0.4) don't seem to change much even over periods of a century plus, I suspect that some of these systems are actually CPM pairs but appear as binaries because of the angle from which we are seeing them.

I wonder if those objects with separations up to a light year or two are actually members of a moving group. There are a bunch of loose ones near the Sun (Sirius/Ursa Major, Castor, TW Hydra, Beta Pictoris, AB Doradus, Argus/IC2391, the Hyades, the Pleiades; out of that, only the Pleiades and maybe IC2391 are gravitationally bound).

I am more inclined to suspect that most of them were either former binaries that 'drifted apart' or had their origin in the same star cluster. I have, however, come across some CPM groups, sets of three to five stars (maybe more than that in a couple of instances) that are within a couple thousand au of each other.

As I understand binary fractions, they go from something like 75% in "field" O stars, to just under 50% for G stars, to maybe 33% for M stars, so those numbers are a LOT lower than expected. The party line would be option 1; somehow the doubles are just not getting counted. There are three places they could be going:
1.) Too faint for ASCC to have picked up, either wholesale, or because the primary swamped them
2.) Too close for ASCC to have picked up
3.) Companions that were simply missed (maybe the PM was wrong)

Given that nature seems to have a propensity for making equal-luminosity binaries (although I'm not completely convinced that's not just a selection effect; they ARE easier to find), I suspect the vast majority are just too close for ASCC to determine. 0.25" can hide 25 AU at a distance of 100 pc.

Problem is, the ASCC is a composite. At the level I'm working at, there are two separate flags for double stars: the Tycho Flag and the flag from the old Proper Motion Catalogue. Sometimes these flags agree with each other that a given system is a binary; often, though, they disagree. Most of the systems flagged by the PM tend to be 'established', with long histories of measures and even orbits. The Tycho flagged systems - especially those where the PM flag is blank - tend to be a bit of a void. (After drawing blanks in Simbad with the most recent batch, I ran 87 of these through the Tycho Double Star catalogue and found a grand total of three hits).

As to faintness or closeness...a lot of the close systems, particularly the ones discovered by the French back in the 60's and 70's, have separations on the order of 0.1 to 0.3 most of the time. Faintness...the WDS gives magnitudes for some secondary components down to about 15 or 16 (Luyten seems to have been an expert at finding very faint companion stars as many of these have an LDS designation).

As to the orbits and distances...yes, many of the published orbits I've seen for these stars, even the ones with semi major axis of 0.3 or less, are in the 'hundred year or longer range'. I've actually seen a few efforts to compute orbits with periods on the order of several millenia...

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ThinkerX
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Re: ASCC

Post #43by ThinkerX » 20.03.2011, 00:58

Downloaded and started processing the third 'block' taking things down to around Dec -30. Things is getting a tad strange: F5, G0, and G5 stars are all down, numberwise compared to the positive declinations; the F8's are down by half! On the other hand, the G2 and G8 stars have increased ten fold or more - from low double digits to mid triple digits. Not quite sure what to make of this...

starguy84
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Re: ASCC

Post #44by starguy84 » 21.03.2011, 15:36

Hey ThinkerX, have you seen this?: http://www.aavso.org/apass

Granted, this won't work with your dataset because there's no 2MASS crossmatch (or proper motions), but they've apparently got 8 million more stars (in B and V) to extend the Tycho database.

As for your lack of F5, G0, and G5 stars... I honestly don't know what's going on there. My first thought was that you'd hit an area where the galactic plane takes up most of the sky, and that this was all reddening, but I checked and the galactic plane doesn't do anything weird there. I can't think of any other systematic effects I'd believe, so I'm stumped too.

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ThinkerX
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Re: ASCC

Post #45by ThinkerX » 22.03.2011, 01:24

Starguy...did a bit more processing and a bit more pondering. I don't know who or when, but to me it looks like somebody 'down under' took a whole bunch of stars with HD spectral types and converted them over to the MK system, which often resulted in the spectral type shifting one or two places (say, from G0 to G1 or some such). What I had come to think of as the 'secondary' spectral types (F6, F7, G1, G2, G3, G6, K1, and K3) went from being almost nonexistent in the northern declinations to being fairly well populated in the southern. I am probably going to have to make 'templates' for at least F6, K1 and K3 stars, something I hadn't done before, because, well, there weren't any to speak of. However, G4, G7, G9, and K4 stars are still very few and far between...Hmmm....

I did look over the link. Seems almost like a repeat of the 2MASS program, only with the more visible bands.

Have been wondering about something a bit lately you might have more of an idea about than some others...

2MASS (as the name implies) is an all sky survey, focusing on the infrared colors. Ok...looking through the bigger catalogues at VizieR, I see that the 2MASS results are being attached to more and more of them - not just the ASCC, but the Carlsberg Meridian Catalogue, the USNO, and a couple of others I can't recollect right off. Ok, so we have lots and lots of fairly good quality magnitude measures for the J, H, and K bands...but is anybody actually using it for anything? I mean, I'm using (or is it 'miss-using') a tiny tiny snippit of it to try to get improved spectrophotometric distances to several tens of thousands stars, and I recollect a few others doing the same (N Stars project)...but thats about it. What else is this being used for? I mean by now they have data of this sort for...millions? tens of millions? of stars.

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selden
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Re: ASCC

Post #46by selden » 22.03.2011, 01:54

FWIW, a web search for
2mass citation
returns quite a few research projects.
Selden

starguy84
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Re: ASCC

Post #47by starguy84 » 24.03.2011, 01:58

ThinkerX wrote:2MASS (as the name implies) is an all sky survey, focusing on the infrared colors. Ok...looking through the bigger catalogues at VizieR, I see that the 2MASS results are being attached to more and more of them - not just the ASCC, but the Carlsberg Meridian Catalogue, the USNO, and a couple of others I can't recollect right off. Ok, so we have lots and lots of fairly good quality magnitude measures for the J, H, and K bands...but is anybody actually using it for anything? I mean, I'm using (or is it 'miss-using') a tiny tiny snippit of it to try to get improved spectrophotometric distances to several tens of thousands stars, and I recollect a few others doing the same (N Stars project)...but thats about it. What else is this being used for? I mean by now they have data of this sort for...millions? tens of millions? of stars.

Heck yes.

It's being used all over the place, particularly in surveys where it's too much work to get an infrared spectrum of every target. 2MASS provided not only homogeneous high quality JHK magnitudes, but also accurate positions (accurate to roughly 200 mas, although don't quote me on that) linked to the Hipparcos/Tycho International Reference Coordinate System, and actual images of the sky in JHK wavebands.

If you want to find a super-cool brown dwarf, you'll probably be looking in WISE, Herschel, UKIDSS or Spitzer data; your only other chance of finding it is in 2MASS (or DENIS, or SDSS, I suppose)

For work with very luminous (and distant) stars, interstellar reddening means you won't get much flux from your O supergiant or Wolf-Rayet star unless you look in the infrared.

If you're doing population work, the optical and near-IR regions of the spectrum are basically the only regions dominated by stellar sources.

Most long-baseline "optical" interferometers actually work in the near-IR, so they need to know how bright their targets are (The CHARA and SUSI teams collaborated on beam combiners that work in the R bands, and CHARA has one other that works in the V band, but I don't know of any others).

There are also lots of interesting things (methane absorption bands in brown dwarfs, for example) that only show up in the infrared anyway.

I can't say much about extragalactic work, except that a LOT of what they do are populational studies, and extragalactic astronomers are VERY big on full-spectrum coverage; everything from X-ray observations to radio observations... I can't see why they WOULDN'T use 2MASS observations of their galaxies to fit the overall power output of the galaxy.

So, it's a mix of "Yes, because we need near-IR colors" and "it's there, so why not?"

Of course, I'm affiliated with one of the former NStars groups, so I AM somewhat biased on the issue. We use 2MASS for positions and three extra photometry points to constrain the distance estimates, and to constrain our infrared AO measurements of close binaries, and to fit spectral energy distributions and determine temperatures and bolometric corrections.

So yeah, lots of things.

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ThinkerX
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Re: ASCC

Post #48by ThinkerX » 24.03.2011, 05:40

Selden and Starguy...Thanx. I was starting to wonder abit about 2MASS.

Made up templates for F6 and K1, working on another for K3 now.

The F6 template didn't go all that well - hit rate actually dropped below 70% despite quite a bit of tweaking and retries, guess I'll have to hope the proper motion cuts there will bring that up a bit. The hit rate for all of the other tables is at least 72%, so this is a bit of a bummer. The only bright spot there is that template actually gave fairly good distances - to within 15% - for three or four F6 III stars in the callibration table as well as the type V's. Must have something to do with the giant stars branching off.

The K1 template went much, much better - the hit rate there, even with the limits and exclusions, is close to 85%, and a lot of those - maybe 60% - are to within 5%. Definitely one of the better tables. However, I did have to tweak slightly the 'dead average' absolute magnitude from Tsetkov's (sp?) table to make that work that well.

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ThinkerX
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Re: ASCC

Post #49by ThinkerX » 03.04.2011, 22:42

Been working my way through the double stars for the third batch, set in the negative declinations. The info for these stars, by and large, is even worse than for the northern pairs; at least half the time - even for some interesting seeming multiple systems - there are a grand total of four or five measures, of which I can find maybe two or three, and the most recent of those measures dates from like forty or fifty years ago. It looks like there were a number of people actively hunting for double star systems 'down under' sixty or eighty years ago, but when they died or left or whatever, well...that was it...until a couple decades ago, when Tycho measured a bunch of them again and the folks in south america got their own astronomy programs underway. On a slightly brighter note, it looks like there was a concerted effort to provide orbits for a lot of the close binaries that did have more than eight or ten measures.

Apart from that...block three brings the current total up to well over 26,000 stars, which is less than what I'd hoped for at this point. The fourth block should be the largest of the lot, bringing the total to about 37,000 - 39,000 stars. Should be finishing up towards the end of April. I am contemplating doing a test run on the stars without spectral types prior to calling it quits for the summer.

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ThinkerX
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Re: ASCC

Post #50by ThinkerX » 07.05.2011, 00:34

Nearly done, at least done enough to call it quits for the next six or eight months. Just finishing up a last wee bit of editing and putting a 'key' together.

At this point, about 32,000 stars (the numbers really cratered in the far southern declinations for whatever reason). That still leaves me about 220,000 stars shy of those in HABCAT II...maybe next winter...

Around 1800 - 2000 double or multiple systems with info ranging from a single century old measure to full orbits. Most systems, though have three to five measures. Several hundred more systems flagged as binaries, but for which no additional data can be found anywhere...which has me wondering.

Alternative (non-Tycho) distances to about 200 stars, give or take a bit. Mostly, my distances line up pretty good with theirs (within 10% or 15%, and sometimes much closer).

Looks like a significant number of these stars ended up in one or another of the ROSAT catalogues for whatever reason - I noted about fifty such without even trying (I was looking for other info). It might be worthwhile to run this catalogue against ROSAT sometime and see just how many matches there are.

Lots and lots of problems with the ASCC, ranging from missing DM and HD numbers to flags for double stars and variable stars that do not seem to be listed as double or variable anywhere else.

Suppose I should send Starguy his own personal copy or something...

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Re: ASCC

Post #51by starguy84 » 13.05.2011, 21:33

ThinkerX wrote:At this point, about 32,000 stars (the numbers really cratered in the far southern declinations for whatever reason).

I suspect that's because you're using spectroscopy to determine the distances. Spectroscopy (and really, every kind of astronomy, although now we have all-sky surveys like Tycho) has mostly been done in the northern hemisphere. Even today, most people still prefer to go a few miles out of town to observe, rather than to another continent.

The VizieR B/mk database should have every published spectral type ever (including erroneous ones), but combining THAT with ASCC is probably worthy of a journal paper in and of itself.

ThinkerX wrote:Around 1800 - 2000 double or multiple systems with info ranging from a single century old measure to full orbits. Most systems, though have three to five measures.

I'm a bit worried about mixing detections from different catalogs, although I admit I don't know where or how accurate these measures are. The inter-agreement of various catalog's coordinate systems is still a thorny problem if you care about small (tenth of an arcsecond) changes. That said, I'm curious to see what you've got. If they're all from modern (say, post-1990) measurements, or explicit measurements of relative separation, you may indeed have something. Anything on the ICRS system (Hipparcos, Tycho, 2MASS, PPMX, AC2000, NOMAD, USNO-B1, UCAC3) is probably good.

ThinkerX wrote:Looks like a significant number of these stars ended up in one or another of the ROSAT catalogues for whatever reason - I noted about fifty such without even trying (I was looking for other info). It might be worthwhile to run this catalogue against ROSAT sometime and see just how many matches there are.

People have done ROSAT cross-matching with stellar sources before (Haakonsen 2009 ApJS), so this may already be done...
ROSAT X-ray detections mean one of two things:
1. The star is chromospherically active (i.e., young, or a tidally interacting binary that might be in synchronized rotation- either way, the idea is that the star is rotating quickly so its magnetic field is strong and accelerating lots of particles to emit synchrotron radiation)
2. The source is [around a] degenerate object (ie, white dwarf, neutron star, accretion disk around a black hole, accretion disk around a supermassive black hole in a distant galaxy- the idea is that object is so hot it emits thermal X-rays). Those are far less likely; they would be mistaken cross-identifications.

ThinkerX wrote:Lots and lots of problems with the ASCC, ranging from missing DM and HD numbers to flags for double stars and variable stars that do not seem to be listed as double or variable anywhere else.

I would trust WDS (B/wds) and SB9 (B/sb9) for binaries; they're trying to systematically catalog every binary found visually, and spectroscopically (respectively). Nevertheless, both catalogs are incomplete AND contaminated with fakes. That's the legacy of 200 years of binary star research...

ThinkerX wrote:Suppose I should send Starguy his own personal copy or something...
Yes please!

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ThinkerX
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Re: ASCC

Post #52by ThinkerX » 14.05.2011, 01:45

I suspect that's because you're using spectroscopy to determine the distances. Spectroscopy (and really, every kind of astronomy, although now we have all-sky surveys like Tycho) has mostly been done in the northern hemisphere. Even today, most people still prefer to go a few miles out of town to observe, rather than to another continent.

That is probably part of it. Another part of it, though, seems to be that for whatever reason, a lot of the stars didn't make either the first proper motion cut (overall quality) or the second (weeding out the giants/superluminious main sequence stars). Almost like there is a huge number of giant stars kinda 'due south'.

I'm a bit worried about mixing detections from different catalogs, although I admit I don't know where or how accurate these measures are. The inter-agreement of various catalog's coordinate systems is still a thorny problem if you care about small (tenth of an arcsecond) changes. That said, I'm curious to see what you've got. If they're all from modern (say, post-1990) measurements, or explicit measurements of relative separation, you may indeed have something. Anything on the ICRS system (Hipparcos, Tycho, 2MASS, PPMX, AC2000, NOMAD, USNO-B1, UCAC3) is probably good.

Four main double star catalogues: WDS, CCDM, Tycho Double Star, and Double Stars in Astrographic Catalogues.

First and last measures almost always came from the WDS (interestingly enough there appear to be a few double stars out there *not* in the WDS).

Earlier intermediate measure (sometimes) from the CCDM - which, I have come to suspect is a sort of slightly updated version of the olde 'Index of Double Stars'.

Tycho Double Star does give good measures from 1991 for stars from about 0.4 out to about 10.0 (give or take). Some of the time it is another intermediate measure.

'Double Stars in Astrographic Catalogues' I blundered across by accident pretty late in this project - but was impressed enough to where I went back through all the double star sections. It has up to eight or ten listings, from about 1890 to 2004 or some such for a many thousands of wider (cpm or optical) pairs. Most of these listings are based on a single observation, but many of these single observations stem from the same year.

I also used a large number of double star catalogs/reports going back to the early 1950's (mostly by the French, mostly for very close binaries) and a slew of the more recent catalogs in VizieR.

I noted some discrepencies between individual observations now and again, usually the PA moving in the 'wrong' direction by a degree or three, and the occasional tenth or two tenths difference in separation, but taken collectively, they mesh fairly well. I do, however, regard as suspect measures taken prior to around 1850; a lot of the ones from 1820 - 1835 or so have errors in both the PA and separation by half a dozen degrees or more. Burnham, writing about a century ago, commented about the poor quality of the observations from the early 19th century; while another astronomer from the late 20th century commented about poor quality observations from Burnhams time. Improvement through the ages?


People have done ROSAT cross-matching with stellar sources before (Haakonsen 2009 ApJS), so this may already be done...
ROSAT X-ray detections mean one of two things:
1. The star is chromospherically active (i.e., young, or a tidally interacting binary that might be in synchronized rotation- either way, the idea is that the star is rotating quickly so its magnetic field is strong and accelerating lots of particles to emit synchrotron radiation)
2. The source is [around a] degenerate object (ie, white dwarf, neutron star, accretion disk around a black hole, accretion disk around a supermassive black hole in a distant galaxy- the idea is that object is so hot it emits thermal X-rays). Those are far less likely; they would be mistaken cross-identifications

95% of the time, I think it is Option 1 with these stars - many of the ones I found were part of double or multiple systems where there was another component that was like A5 or F0 or even B9 or some such, which if my understanding is right, means that all the stars in that system are 'young' - astronomically speaking.

I didn't run them through the same rigorous check as I did with the binary stars, but from the samples I did run, I have some doubts about the accuracy of the stars flagged as 'variable' by Tycho. Much of the time stars flagged as variable by Tycho wouldn't turn up in Rosat, or vice versa.

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Re: ASCC

Post #53by starguy84 » 14.05.2011, 04:28

First and last measures almost always came from the WDS (interestingly enough there appear to be a few double stars out there *not* in the WDS).
I'm not surprised... but the nice thing about WDS is that it's comprehensive enough you can be forgiven for ignoring stuff NOT in there... although it's best not to.

ThinkerX wrote:Earlier intermediate measure (sometimes) from the CCDM - which, I have come to suspect is a sort of slightly updated version of the olde 'Index of Double Stars'.
Actually, the WDS is the IDS under new management. They literally moved all the data files (punch cards, probably) to the USNO Washington campus in the 1970s. CCDM is a similar/competing catalog by the University of Strasbourg (the SIMBAD and VizieR people). Based on the VizieR database description, it looks like it was forked off the 1984 version of WDS to help create the Hipparcos Input Catalog.

ThinkerX wrote:I noted some discrepencies between individual observations now and again, usually the PA moving in the 'wrong' direction by a degree or three, and the occasional tenth or two tenths difference in separation, but taken collectively, they mesh fairly well. I do, however, regard as suspect measures taken prior to around 1850; a lot of the ones from 1820 - 1835 or so have errors in both the PA and separation by half a dozen degrees or more. Burnham, writing about a century ago, commented about the poor quality of the observations from the early 19th century; while another astronomer from the late 20th century commented about poor quality observations from Burnhams time. Improvement through the ages?

The March of Progress. Burnham was complaining about people squinting through eyepieces and estimating, as compared to the then-modern filar micrometers and photographic plate techniques. Those were replaced by automated scanning microdensitometers, and then digital CCDs, speckle interferometry, long-baseline interferometry...

Filar micrometers are actually pretty cool. You have two thin parallel wires (one fixed at the center of the field of view) and one thin perpendicular wire. A micrometer controls the spacing between the two parallel wires, and the entire assembly can be rotated. You measure a binary star by centering on the A component and manipulating the assembly until you've got two cross-hairs over your stars; then you read off the separation and rotation angle and shout it to your assistant, who converts it to real units.

The other early apparatus I've heard of was a moveable split lens (or mirror?) design. You manipulate that assembly until the image of A and B are on top of each other.

ThinkerX wrote:95% of the time, I think it is Option 1 with these stars - many of the ones I found were part of double or multiple systems where there was another component that was like A5 or F0 or even B9 or some such, which if my understanding is right, means that all the stars in that system are 'young' - astronomically speaking.
I agree with that completely.

ThinkerX wrote:I didn't run them through the same rigorous check as I did with the binary stars, but from the samples I did run, I have some doubts about the accuracy of the stars flagged as 'variable' by Tycho. Much of the time stars flagged as variable by Tycho wouldn't turn up in Rosat, or vice versa.
X-ray emission and photometric variability are not necessarily related. Some X-ray emitting active stars are photometrically stable, and MANY photometrically variable stars are either not X-ray active or are too faint in X-rays for ROSAT to have picked up.

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ASCC validation (of a sort)

Post #54by starguy84 » 05.06.2011, 23:21

Over the past few weeks, I've attempted to determine just how accurate the ThinkerX ASCC distances are, and I've reached some tentative conclusions (although ThinkerX privately told me he can't quite replicate my results... we're not entirely sure why. I will attempt to highlight where I think the points of contention are). Error analysis is not my forte, so Fridger may have lots of issues with this, but here goes...

In summary:

  • Used as described (3 relations selected by spectral type, one per each of three colors): 1-sigma errors are 19.9% (for dwarf stars)
  • Relaxing the requirement that ALL three relations have to work: 1-sigma error is 22.3%.
  • Used as a purely photometric method (using any relation that's valid for the particular color range, ignoring spectral type): 1-sigma error is 20.3%.
There are problems with both the cutoff used to weed out giants, and some kind of systematic color-dependent error where blue stars (V-J < 1) are predicted to be closer than they really are.

What I did:
ThinkerX sent me his 'key' document, which lists all 57 color relations (3 colors, 19 spectral types). For each color relation, there's a dead-average absolute magnitude, a dead-average color, a slope, and a range of colors it's valid for. This let me transform them into linear functions.
Seen here, I have plotted them in red on top of my test dataset (described next)
Image
Image
Image
These graphs were made from the results of the purely photometric method.
Blue=More than 1 valid relation, dwarf
Green=More than 1 valid relation, giant
Purple= 1 valid relation, dwarf
Ochre = 1 valid relation, giant
Red= no relations worked
The black lines connect the dead-average colors and magnitudes for each spectral type.

I then wrote a program to apply them to a set of stars, and downloaded all the stars in the revised Hipparcos catalog (van Leeuwen 2007) with parallaxes greater than 10 mas, and errors less than 2 mas (ie, a maximum of 20% error at a maximum of 100 pc). I also pulled the ASCC entries for those stars so I would have the same B, V, J, H colors and spectral types that he had. (There may be two points of error here: I used revised Hipparcos values, not Hipparcos 1997 values; AND my error is up to 20% unlike his strict 5% limit, which may have inadvertently made ThinkerX's relations only look that accurate).

Throughout this analysis, I will mention calculating the error. What this generally means is that I removed all the stars identified as giants, and then sorted the output table by error to find the percent distance error that 68.2% of the distances were within. (68.2% of normally/gaussian distributed measurements should be within the standard quoted error, ie 1-sigma; 95.4% will be within twice that, ie 2-sigma) This is less robust than, say, actually fitting a gaussian distribution to the data, but I figure it's roughly representative.

Method 1: (spectro-photometric)
The program runs through the list of stars; if there is a valid spectral type, I calculate the distances using the correct color relations for that spectral type. Because ThinkerX gave ranges for which each color relation is valid, I won't calculate it if the color is outside those ranges. For instance, a G0 star with a B-V color of 1.5 is bizarre, so we assume something in the photometry or spectral type is wrong (reddening, wrong star, bad photometry) and don't bother.

Each of the up to 3 distances is assigned a representative 1-sigma error; I use 1/error^2 as a weight and take the weighted average of the values.
I calculated this 1-sigma error by shutting off all but one distance relation, running the code on ALL the stars, and seeing how accurate the distances produced by just that color were. For the spectrophotometric method, V-J vs MJ was the most accurate at 21.6%; then J-H vs MH at 22.0%, and finally B-V vs MV at 23.4%; using weights meant that the probably-less-accurate B-V distance counted less in the final result. (this may be another point of contention, if you take the straight average versus a weighted average, your final distances will be different... it doesn't explain why my distances had HIGHER errors)

Finally, a photometric distance relation's downfall is that it cannot (easily) distinguish between nearby dwarfs and distant, extremely luminous, giants. One popular way to get around this is to use proper motion. All things being equal, a distant star should seem to move slower across the sky than a nearby star. ThinkerX gave values of proper motion (for various distances) he considered too low to be a dwarf; I applied this cut to my stars.

With this done, I found that the weighted average distances for dwarfs were accurate to 22.3% (1-sigma), based on comparing them to the van Leeuwen HIPPARCOS trigonometric parallaxes. Interestingly, when I took the weighted standard deviation (which is SUPPOSED to get you a 1-sigma error) of those three distances I got 9.4% distance errors, which is too small and means there's some systematic effect going on to make them agree so well internally. I added a fudge factor of 20.2% of the distance ( ie, sqrt(20.2^2+9.4^2) = 22.3%) to all the standard deviations to make them more reasonable overall. This DOES mean that the minimum quoted error coming out of my code is 20.2% regardless of how good it is.

For well-behaved stars where all three color-relations worked, the weighted average distances were accurate to 19.9%, and I had to add a 17% fudge factor to make them work. This make sense, because if a relation didn't work, the star has strange photometric colors and probably isn't a normal main-sequence star anyway.

Method 2: (Purely photometric)

This was my own bias, and may be useful if ThinkerX decides to publish a catalog for the entire ASCC, because most of the ASCC catalog does not have spectral types.

Anyway, the program worked as before, except without a spectral type, I could not choose between the different B-V vs MV relations, or any of the others. I therefore attempted to apply ALL of them, and ended up with as many as 30 distance estimates. As before, I shut off the other colors to find out how accurate (for instance) B-V was on its own. This time, I could actually calculate the standard deviation of multiple B-V (etc.) distances for each star, but they underestimated how far they were from the van Leeuwen HIPPARCOS distance to the star, and I had to add more fudge factors.

Once I set the fudge factors for each color, I calculated errors (all relations using a particular color got the same error, and therefore weight) and then the weighted average distance and weighted standard deviation. As before, this means that the colors that are less precise, count less.

Overall, THIS method had a 20.3% accuracy; I had to add a 14.1% fudge factor to the weighted standard deviation to make the code produce a 1-sigma error of 20.3% to match. If ThinkerX uses something similar to get distances to ALL of ASCC, they will likely be accurate to 20.3%.

Final thoughts:

This technique compares pretty well to actual scientific photometric distance relations. Henry et al. 2004 (VRIJHKs relations for K and M dwarfs) includes a standard fudge factor of 15.25% and that fudge factor contributes most of the error quoted for any given main-sequence star; Weis was accurate to 20%; Breddels et al. 2010 actually quotes larger (50%!) errors using more information than ThinkerX had. I wish I was more familiar with the PMSU methods (Reid et al. 1995, Hawley et al. 1996) but I believe they aren't as accurate as the Henry et al. 2004 relations.

I assumed the van Leeuwen HIPPARCOS values were absolutely correct, even though they quoted up to 20% errors. This means my errors may be overestimated, ie, I was trying to match a HIPPARCOS distance that was also wrong. ThinkerX used 5% distance errors in his analysis, which may be more reasonable.

Apart from removing everything with a Hipparcos component # greater than 1, I did not filter out any binaries; ThinkerX spent a lot of time doing that.

The purely photometric distances suffer from a problem that M stars legitimately have the same J-H colors as K type stars (notice how the main sequence curls back on itself). Thus, Barnard's Star was placed 16 pc away, not 1.8... If you cut by spectral type, Barnard's Star is discarded because ThinkerX did not define any relations for stars cooler than K7.

The giant cutoff (or at least my implementation of it) accidentally removes a lot of main-sequence F stars. I'm less worried about it leaving a few giants as main sequence stars; they might genuinely be faster moving than average and there's really no way to fix that apart from spectral typing or trigonometric parallax.
What you should see here is the giants (the blob around B-V=1.0, Reduced V = -5) as yellow/green, and nothing else as yellow/green.
Image
(Data from the spectro-photometric method)
'Reduced proper motion' is what you get when you use proper motion instead of parallax in your absolute magnitude formula. It explicitly assumes faster moving things are closer. Note that you can still almost see the main sequence.
Blue=More than 1 valid relation, dwarf
Green=More than 1 valid relation, giant
Purple= 1 valid relation, dwarf
Ochre = 1 valid relation, giant
Red= no relations were valid

The bluer stars (V-J < 1) are systematically predicted to be closer than they actually are. They should cluster around the 1:1 line here, and they tend to be on the upper (closer) side. Ignore the green/ochre points, they're giants and it's not a problem if they're predicted to be a lot closer- they are bright but have the same colors.
Image
Blue=More than 1 valid relation, dwarf
Green=More than 1 valid relation, giant
Purple= 1 valid relation, dwarf
Ochre = 1 valid relation, giant
Red= no relations worked
Somehow removing this bias (another fudge factor?) would probably reduce the calculated 1-sigma errors.

This also shows up in the overall bias toward closer distances visible in this figure (I did not fit the gaussians, I just drew them in with the proper standard deviations. Note how the gaussian is centered, but the real distribution tends to negative percent offset, ie, closer).
Photometric everything-goes method:
Image
Spectro-photometric method:
Image
Percent offsets are (ThinkerX-van Leeuwen Hipparcos)/(van Leeuwen Hipparcos)x100

Topic author
ThinkerX
Posts: 51
Joined: 14.01.2011
With us: 13 years 10 months

Re: ASCC

Post #55by ThinkerX » 06.06.2011, 06:32

And there you have it.

I really, really appreciate Starguys efforts here. He put a lot of thought, a lot of work, and a lot of time into this project (hopefully he don't get in trouble with his real job over this).

I then wrote a program to apply them to a set of stars, and downloaded all the stars in the revised Hipparcos catalog (van Leeuwen 2007) with parallaxes greater than 10 mas, and errors less than 2 mas (ie, a maximum of 20% error at a maximum of 100 pc). I also pulled the ASCC entries for those stars so I would have the same B, V, J, H colors and spectral types that he had. (There may be two points of error here: I used revised Hipparcos values, not Hipparcos 1997 values; AND my error is up to 20% unlike his strict 5% limit, which may have inadvertently made ThinkerX's relations only look that accurate).

assumed the van Leeuwen HIPPARCOS values were absolutely correct, even though they quoted up to 20% errors. This means my errors may be overestimated, ie, I was trying to match a HIPPARCOS distance that was also wrong. ThinkerX used 5% distance errors in his analysis, which may be more reasonable.

My personal suspicion is that my error rate might actually be slightly less than Starguys analysis indicates because of the Hip differences cited above...but 20% is what I was aiming for.

It really does baffle me that I wasn't able to replicate Starguys results. For about half the spectral types, his distances were pretty close to mine - as much as 6 or 8 points lower than mine (I would get about 70% of the distances to within 20%, while he'd get 66%), which is sort of reasonable considering his sample size was usually three to five times larger than mine. A few of them though - down towards the bottom of the G's and top end of the K's were something like 30 points off: I'd get the distance to within 20% about 85% of the time; with him it would be about 55-60% of the time. Not really sure what was going on there.

Maybe somebody else could figure that one out. Where's Fridger when you need him?

Apart from removing everything with a Hipparcos component # greater than 1, I did not filter out any binaries; ThinkerX spent a lot of time doing that

Actually, I left the binaries in, mostly to see how well this system did with them. Surprisingly, it actually did fairly well...about half the time. Taking a closer look at those results - particularly the separation of the components - is one of many things on my 'to do' list here.

If somebody else wants to take their own stab at the error analysis, I'll send them a copy of the Key as well.


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