Phoenix lander on Mars

[Marco Klunder]

I'm even more confused now.
Back to Celestia, having changed nothing on the model, today I got the robotic arm ...

Phoenix_celestia_arm.jpg

I also once got a scene with the old component and the upper solar panels (forgot to save that one in a picture )

Marco

[selden]

The blue surfaces do have their normals pointing in the wrong direction. All external surfaces should be yellow. When drawn by Anim8or, those blue surfaces are opaque and may be hinding other surfaces which have normals pointing toward the viewpoint. When drawn by Celestia, those blue surfaces are invisible and you may see surfaces that are supposed to be hidden by them.

When I suggested using "Fix normals" I meant to type "Flip normals".
Those operations are only available when surfaces are selected, either individually or en-masse.

Have you tried rotating the viewpoint around the object in Celestia? Different parts may be visible from different directions.

You might also try using JPG versions of all of the textures with Celestia. JPG images are always opaque. PNG images might include alpha channels which Celestia interprets as transparent, but that might not be the intention of the original designer.

Without a copy of the 3ds model, I'm just guessing that these are the underlying problems. Unfortunately, I really don't have the time now to help to debug the model itself.

[Marco Klunder]

Although forgotten to save the scene in a previous Celestia session, Phoenix reappeared again with the Solar panels.

I think I keep trying, and somewhere tomorrow the whole model will appear

Phoenix_celestia_solar.jpg

Marco

[Marco Klunder]

A quick check of surface normals can be done in Anim8or by going into the "point editor" and selecting all of the surfaces. If the surfaces are drawn blue, their normals are pointing in the wrong direction. If they're yellow, they're OK.

I was wondering why there was so much (not all) of Phoenix drawn yellow in Anim8or with a result that so minor was drawn in Celestia.
So lets give it a try ... Flip all normals in Anim8or, resulting in a very blue Phoenix in the point editor, but drawn in Celestia, although not textured at all, this is the result

Phoenix_celestia_untextured.jpg

Knowing there is still a lot to do, I'm unfamiliar with yet, I think this is a milestone reached

Marco

[selden]

That's very strange, but it's good to know it looks OK, now.

You might look at it from a very close viewpoint in Celestia, just to make sure you aren't seeing only the inside surfaces of its components.

[Marco Klunder]

When turning the model with right-click-drag all parts become invisible at their turn.
There is even an observer position that phoenix is not visible at all
So the picture above is seen from a position on the opposite side, where the components are visible.

Indeed good to know the model is OK.
By the way, I also used the Anim8or Debug Log file import during the import of "phoenix.3ds".
The log reports: Readerrors = 0

Also the Celestia log doesn't report errors. It only says:
Model statistics: 8418 vertices, 2806 primitives, 105 materials (22 unique)

That's all.
Marco

[Fenerit]

Try to convert the 3Ds model into CMOD now; then see what happen. Change the SSC' model directive.

[Marco Klunder]

I already tried a conversion to CMOD, using 3dstocmod.exe combined with CmodConverter.exe.

This is the result:

Phoenix_celestia_cmod.jpg

Except the robotic arm, the components that are drawn have the inside texture be drawn.

As I discovered by importing the .3ds model in Blender, you can zoom in/out the model and even get IN the model.
Thus it became clear to me that all components have an outside and an inside texture defined.
The picture below shows an example. On the right of the picture you see the outside orange/gold colour of the body of Phoenix and the black components are the inside.

Phoenix inside.jpg

The inside textures by the way, are the same textures as defined for the solar panels, when seen from below.
That are also the same components which are drawn blue in Anim8or in the point editor according the advised action by Selden.

Marco

[Fenerit]

Supposed you have achieved the CMOD conversion in ASCII form, open with an editor such a file and see whether all textures match (e.a as names and quantity as well). If they match, try to re-convert the 3DS model into CMOD with normals, tangents and uniquify vertex as specify within the "fix" panel of MFC wrapper (cmodconverter.exe). Then reload the model in Celestia. As Selden was recall, if you have .png texture, be sure that they are as "unique level" or "background" (24bit) and not that the image be the layer 0/1 which mean that "beneath" there is an alpha layer (32bit).

[Marco Klunder]

Phoenix has landed on the Martian surface in Celestia.

Phoenix on Mars.jpg

Although not completely without errors, but the result may be there.

The process followed so far:
1: Phoenix Lander model by Adam Hecht downloaded from http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=181b88faf230a1a133eb1cd2434e26fc&ct=lc&hl=nl as a model for Google sketchup.
2: Phoenix.skp loaded in the free version of sketchup 7
3: Model exported as a COLLADA .dae file
4: The .dae file imported in Blender and exported as a .3ds file
5: All textures resized in power of 2 dimensions
6: The Blender export script does not handle the texture 9+3 format for texture files correct. e.g. texture10.jpg is refered to as texture10.jp. To circumvent this problem, all textures are renamed to the 8+3 format and all references in the .3ds file are corrected in the same way by editing the .3ds file with Notepad++
7: Convert the .3ds file into a CMOD file, using the 3dstocmod.exe combined with CmodConverter.exe.
8: Here I discovered the opacity parameter. For many materials it was set to zero or sometimes it had very high values such as 2.4 e+026
9: I manually adjusted ALL opacity parameters to 1 and see the above result
10: also a minor change in the proposed .SSC in post http://www.shatters.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12505&p=104651&hilit=phoenix+lander#p104651 RotationOffset 250 # 211.05 to have the lander stand more horizontal.



But there are still a few issues on the model.
a) The texture of the upperdeck is black (texture2.jpg) instead of orange/gold (texture5.jpg)
b) The solar panels as seen from below must be black textured (texture2.jpg) instead of disorted solar panel pictures from (texture4.jpg)
c) The white space in the 2 towers on the upper deck must be transparent. I learned something in this post about Alpha codes in the according .PNG texture file, but apparently there is something incorrect now on this point.
d) The back side of the left (big) tower on the upper deck is textured with 3 stretched white areas, where the 2 front sides (it's a triangle) are correctly textured with 6 white areas. In the texture files there is only 1 .PNG file available, having this texture.



So far the good news and more work to come ....

[Hungry4info]

Yay!!!

[Fenerit]

:D
Phoenix has landed on the Martian surface in Celestia.

But there are still a few issues on the model.
a) The texture of the upperdeck is black (texture2.jpg) instead of orange/gold (texture5.jpg)
b) The solar panels as seen from below must be black textured (texture2.jpg) instead of disorted solar panel pictures from (texture4.jpg)
c) The white space in the 2 towers on the upper deck must be transparent. I learned something in this post about Alpha codes in the according .PNG texture file, but apparently there is something incorrect now on this point.
d) The back side of the left (big) tower on the upper deck is textured with 3 stretched white areas, where the 2 front sides (it's a triangle) are correctly textured with 6 white areas. In the texture files there is only 1 .PNG file available, having this texture.

a), b), d) probably the same mesh has been mapped as double-sides (one side one texture) when the .dae model has been built. 3DS doesn't handle the double-side UV map, so the CMOD repeat the setting (dae format is more advanced than 3DS);

c) For having the transparency, here you must take the ORIGINAL .png texture, open it into a graphic program and see whether the image has trasparent parts (your new is now possibly opaque). If positive, after resizeing and saving AS LAYER (32 bit), you must assign to the relevant CMOD mesh a bit of transparency, neither the full opacity nor the full transparency (e.a. an opacity of 0.3), save the CMOD model and reload Celestia. If all goes right, it's matter of taste establish how many transparency you need.

[BobHegwood]

Hi there...

Just wanted to say that I have been watching your progress here
from the shadows, and I must say that I have been very impressed
with, not only your show of dogged determination, but also
that of the people trying to help you here.

Many thanks for your efforts, but also to your help here.

You guys are to be commended for YOUR efforts too.

Many thanks once again from the Brain-Dead

[Marco Klunder]

To all who helped on this Add-on, thanks very, very much

Phoenix_celestia_v10.jpg

This is the actual result of the Phoenix model, as I uploaded it to the Motherlode.
Unfortunately, the model is to big for an upload to this forum, so it can be downloaded from: http://celestiamotherlode.net/catalog/spacecraft.php when available there.

I call it the version 1.0 result, because I believe the model is well enough to distribute and let people use it, despite 2 minor issues on the model that are not solved yet and really need some more time for studie to overcome. Until then, I didn't want to let all wait that long, as shown in the picture above, the model is very good usable now.

But there are still a few issues on the model.
a) The texture of the upperdeck is black (texture2.jpg) instead of orange/gold (texture5.jpg)
b) The solar panels as seen from below must be black textured (texture2.jpg) instead of disorted solar panel pictures from (texture4.jpg)
c) The white space in the 2 towers on the upper deck must be transparent. I learned something in this post about Alpha codes in the according .PNG texture file, but apparently there is something incorrect now on this point.
d) The back side of the left (big) tower on the upper deck is textured with 3 stretched white areas, where the 2 front sides (it's a triangle) are correctly textured with 6 white areas. In the texture files there is only 1 .PNG file available, having this texture.

a), b), d) probably the same mesh has been mapped as double-sides (one side one texture) when the .dae model has been built. 3DS doesn't handle the double-side UV map, so the CMOD repeat the setting (dae format is more advanced than 3DS);

Well, I discovered an error in the model that was already present in the .dae file.

Phoenix_blender.jpg

Marked with the red arrow, you can see a wrong texture on the back side of the big tower on the upperdeck. This texture need to be the same as the other 2 sides of the tower. So this error is due to a bug in the Collada exporter of the free Sketchup 7 program.
In Blender, you can easily select this part and delete it. I thought: "better no texture than a wrong texture, let's give it a try" .
Then export it again as a .3ds, convert to CMOD, adjust all opacity values and there it was in Celestia. ALL the above problems were gone and there were even more components on the upperdeck now that were drawn much better than before. The only minor thing left now, indeed the backside of the tower is not present anymore, I think it is a minor issue for this v1.0, also because it is not particulary disturbing (my opinion).
It seems to be a kind of sequence error in the .dae file between meshes and materials, because when this (wrong) component is deleted, all resulting components and materials look like to shift a position, resulting in all other errors mentioned above, automatically fixed at once without handling them.

c) For having the transparency, here you must take the ORIGINAL .png texture, open it into a graphic program and see whether the image has trasparent parts (your new is now possibly opaque). If positive, after resizeing and saving AS LAYER (32 bit), you must assign to the relevant CMOD mesh a bit of transparency, neither the full opacity nor the full transparency (e.a. an opacity of 0.3), save the CMOD model and reload Celestia. If all goes right, it's matter of taste establish how many transparency you need.

As you can see in the v1.0 result, the towers are not transparent yet, although I already replaced the texture files with the original (power of 2 adjusted) .png texture files. The problem I experience (for the moment) with the above suggestions is the following:
Somewhere in the proces of creating this model from SKP DAE 3DS CMOD, there goes something wrong with the opacity value, resulting in invisible parts as discussed earlier in this post. All these conversion steps however were necesary to solve particular problems, but also resulted in very much loss of internal documentation. Looking at the CMOD, it only contains a sequential list of keywords and parameters, but without a graphical interface that can interprete and manipulate this CMOD code you can only guess which component is for which part on the Phoenix Lander. Of course, changing ALL opacity values in CMOD with Notepad++ was not that difficult, but finding the relevant CMOD meshes and changing a bit there is no go for me yet.

So this all made me decide to release this version 1.0 model of Phoenix, knowing it has these 2 minor issues, which probably can be solved in the near future, but for this moment are beyond my scope and knowledge. I think the result of all our work and help may be there, so have fun with it and let's hope you all like it as much as I do (and did when working on it)

Thanks again all.

Marco

[Fenerit]

Marked with the red arrow, you can see a wrong texture on the back side of the big tower on the upperdeck. This texture need to be the same as the other 2 sides of the tower. So this error is due to a bug in the Collada exporter of the free Sketchup 7 program.
In Blender, you can easily select this part and delete it. I thought: "better no texture than a wrong texture, let's give it a try" .
Then export it again as a .3ds, convert to CMOD, adjust all opacity values and there it was in Celestia. ALL the above problems were gone and there were even more components on the upperdeck now that were drawn much better than before. The only minor thing left now, indeed the backside of the tower is not present anymore, I think it is a minor issue for this v1.0, also because it is not particulary disturbing (my opinion).
It seems to be a kind of sequence error in the .dae file between meshes and materials, because when this (wrong) component is deleted, all resulting components and materials look like to shift a position, resulting in all other errors mentioned above, automatically fixed at once without handling them.

Well, you are on right path with modelling! I think at this point you need just to master well the Blender. As you have been able to accomplish such operation upon the mesh, the next step is to know how Blender handle all the rest of the mesh's parameters, since for the selected mesh there must be the search for texture, how to map it, the material and so on.

[Fenerit]

Of course, changing ALL opacity values in CMOD with Notepad++ was not that difficult, but finding the relevant CMOD meshes and changing a bit there is no go for me yet.

Theoretically, excluded the fact that in the model can be transparent meshes without texture (just material's color), should be that to which the .png is mapped: you would recognize it within the CMOD just for the .png texture. At least could be a trial for "seeing" how the trasparency work.

[Hungry4info]

Thanks so much for the add-on! I've always wanted Phoenix in Celestia

[Marco Klunder]

I'm a bid mad about myself

I just checked through everything once more and found out that somewhere in the process to coming this far, the original (transparent) texture of the towers was already overridden by an incorrect texture without transparancy
That has happened somewhere in the beginning without the knowledge I learned during this project. But I still thought it was the original which it wasn't. Sorry folks for your efforts and help on this one, but this was pure my own mistake.

The good news is, that leaves the new Phoenix model with just 1 minor issue left and with the transparent towers, that issue is even a much less issue as it probably was before.

So be patient, I upload the version 1.1 model with this correction to the motherlode too today.
Just verify, when it is available on the motherlode that you download this v1.1 instead of the version 1.0 of yesterday.

Phoenix_celestia.jpg

Marco

[danielj]

One week later and the model still isn?t in Celestia Motherlode.What?s going on?

[Hungry4info]

Be patient. It takes some time. It's run by humans.