Really High-Res texture for earth?

[chris]

Since I seem to be placed smack-dab in the middle of all of this, let me just express my opinion here...

I would me more than happy to place the larger textures on the ML, but have refused to do so at Dr. Schrempp's request.
He has every right to make this request, and I will not post anything which has been created with his tools. If this meets with
the collective disapproval here, I would also be very happy to go commit Hari-Kari and simply jump off of the Celestial planet.

I have very much appreciated the Good Doctor's tools, and his patient explanations of these tools for the Brain-Dead.
If HE does not wish his textures to be duplicated on the ML, then they will not be. At least by me.

It would seem that the Good Doctor's works are hardly appreciated by anyone except those who have taken the time
to invest some work into creating their own VT's. Why is this such a price to pay? If you want the textures that badly,
then do a bit of work. Surely this isn't too much to ask for all of the accuracy and detail that comes along with these works.

I just don't buy this argument, which seems to be that we should deliberately make it harder than necessary to install high resolution textures in Celestia because people will 'appreciate' it more. BS. If Fridger doesn't want textures created with his tools on the Motherlode, then yes, be courteous and don't upload them there. But I find the his policy to be absurd. Same with the 'educational' argument . . . People are busy. *I* am busy. I know gobs about image processing already, and whatever time I spend figuring out the peculiarities of texture tools is time that I don't spend on Celestia development (or snowboarding, or reading, or whatever.) If I need to produce a texture from some new data set, then I'll happily invest the time in learning some new tools. But if the time I spent downloading/unpacking/learning them could have been saved by just having a good Blue Marble virtual texture available for download, then I get upset about the low value that someone placed on my free time.

I'll say again: I like nmtools and the F-Tex tools a lot; it's a great package, and nicely documented. But I don't want to spend time using it--or any other tool--without some better reason than the whim of the developer.

--Chris

[t00fri]

OK then everything has been said ...


Fridger

[BobHegwood]

I just don't buy this argument, which seems to be that we should deliberately make it harder than necessary to install high resolution textures in Celestia because people will 'appreciate' it more. BS. If Fridger doesn't want textures created with his tools on the Motherlode, then yes, be courteous and don't upload them there. But I find the his policy to be absurd. Same with the 'educational' argument . . . People are busy. *I* am busy. I know gobs about image processing already, and whatever time I spend figuring out the peculiarities of texture tools is time that I don't spend on Celestia development (or snowboarding, or reading, or whatever.) If I need to produce a texture from some new data set, then I'll happily invest the time in learning some new tools. But if the time I spent downloading/unpacking/learning them could have been saved by just having a good Blue Marble virtual texture available for download, then I get upset about the low value that someone placed on my free time.

I'll say again: I like nmtools and the F-Tex tools a lot; it's a great package, and nicely documented. But I don't want to spend time using it--or any other tool--without some better reason than the whim of the developer.

--Chris

I understand your position completely, but I am simply taking the author's wishes to heart as far as the ML goes.
Again, I would be more than happy to have these textures available on the ML. However, if the Good Doctor doesn't
want this to be the case, then there is nothing I can do about it, except to respect his wishes.

"Can't we all just get along?"

[ElChristou]

I just don't buy this argument, which seems to be that we should deliberately make it harder than necessary to install high resolution textures in Celestia because people will 'appreciate' it more.

From my experience (I've been waiting for a year or so before being able to build a set because I was really busy), yes I do appreciate it much more. Let's say I do value my time and my effort, so again yes there is a plus value here... (it can sounds dumb, but it's how I feel it)

BS. If Fridger doesn't want textures created with his tools on the Motherlode, then yes, be courteous and don't upload them there. But I find the his policy to be absurd.

Don't forget there is more than one reason for such "absurdity"...

Same with the 'educational' argument

I have to disagree. Perhaps YOU won't learn anything with this work (tx to your knowledge) but it's really not the case of everybody. Since I'm here I have learned quite some new stuff concerning my config, particularly at command line level. So even if one don't understand the details of the tools there is always experience to gain with this kind of exercice...

I'll say again: I like nmtools and the F-Tex tools a lot; it's a great package, and nicely documented. But I don't want to spend time using it--or any other tool--without some better reason than the whim of the developer.

Here, sorry Chris but IMHO your statement is pure nonsense. I think perhaps there is here an underlying problem linked to the valorization of work between too "civilization". Chris, you cannot say "I like...but... so I won't use it and better I'll go snowbording (or else)". I not sure if you realize but it's really insulting!

I really don't like what I'm reading, so please guys, no more flame war, let's stay cool and let's see what will we have to offer at CM in a near future.

[chris]

I just don't buy this argument, which seems to be that we should deliberately make it harder than necessary to install high resolution textures in Celestia because people will 'appreciate' it more. BS. If Fridger doesn't want textures created with his tools on the Motherlode, then yes, be courteous and don't upload them there. But I find the his policy to be absurd. Same with the 'educational' argument . . . People are busy. *I* am busy. I know gobs about image processing already, and whatever time I spend figuring out the peculiarities of texture tools is time that I don't spend on Celestia development (or snowboarding, or reading, or whatever.) If I need to produce a texture from some new data set, then I'll happily invest the time in learning some new tools. But if the time I spent downloading/unpacking/learning them could have been saved by just having a good Blue Marble virtual texture available for download, then I get upset about the low value that someone placed on my free time.

I'll say again: I like nmtools and the F-Tex tools a lot; it's a great package, and nicely documented. But I don't want to spend time using it--or any other tool--without some better reason than the whim of the developer.

--Chris

I understand your position completely, but I am simply taking the author's wishes to heart as far as the ML goes.
Again, I would be more than happy to have these textures available on the ML. However, if the Good Doctor doesn't
want this to be the case, then there is nothing I can do about it, except to respect his wishes.

Bob,

No criticism of you here--I'd do the same thing in your position. My argument is with the logic behind the 'no Motherlode upload' policy; despite this, I think it's still right to respect the wishes of the author.

"Can't we all just get along?"

Yes, I think so

[BobHegwood]

"Can't we all just get along?"

Yes, I think so

I'll get out of this for now. Please just accept my thanks to you all for your efforts here.

[bh]

Well I personally would welcome an easier method to make these mega res textures. As an ex cartographer I'm very interested and I thought my computer skills would be up to it... I was mistaken.

I need a 'one click wonder' I'm afraid.

I don't feel I'm being disrespectful to the Fridge for giving us the opportunity of having these great tex files either.

[ElChristou]

Well I personally would welcome an easier method to make these mega res textures. As an ex cartographer I'm very interested and I thought my computer skills would be up to it... I was mistaken.

What's the problem?

[bh]

Heh... I need some 'point and click' instructions...

[ElChristou]

Heh... I need some 'point and click' instructions...

Beginning by my installation thread on osX at CM, them switching on Fridger's tut, you have all you need then! I swear I wasn't that hot the very first time I read Fridger's tut and threads, but really once you have the installation done properly (and it should not be a problem anymore) all is quite simple. You should really try it and don't hesitate a second in asking if any problem!

[bh]

I'll try soon... when I'm ready to go for it! Cheers Chris.

[RVS]

People, please, calm down!
When I first contacted Dr. Schrempp two years ago I had in mind that ‘official’ new textures would be produced, placed on ML and will became available to everyone.
When the first version of NMtools was finished, a half-year-long pause followed. I then offered forumists here to produce normalmaps with my own old version of utilities, which resulted in beating from t00fri to me. Finally, CM opened. But I’m pretty sure that most common Celestia users searching to expand the program don’t go beyond ML at all.
However, the current situation with NMtools and Ftextools is certainly better than nothing, and Dr. Schrempp certainly DO have right to handle anyhow his product. A quarrel here too is too sorrowful. t00fri is indispensable. I would like very much to obtain globular clusters in Celestia (and then maybe planetary nebulas , diffuse nebulas,…).
A proposal from me is to mark all old normalmaps on ML as obsolete, and create an entry for maps, produced by tools with screenshots and descriptions, but with the note, that the author objects to it’s disposal on the ML, and the link to CM. This undoubtedly will increase the popularity of CM!
With best regards, Robert

[Tech Sgt. Chen]

Well, I've been out of the loop for quite some time. I've recently been able to find the time to install and enjoy the new version of Celestia. Not only have I been out of the Celestia loop but, my computering skills have somewhat diminished too. All in good time though, I hope to bring all these back into a harmonious balance. I downloaded and installed Jestr's 64K Earth VT from the ML and enjoyed the "point and click" ease with which I could accomplish this. I've also recently become very interested in the Hi-Res textures available through Fridger's tools at Celestial Matters. In all honesty, I was a bit intimidated by all the tools that must be downloaded and then, all the steps necessary to complete the process. Though my desire for the highest possible quality texture has driven me to the point of giving it all a whirl and I believe I'll be triumphant, I realize that the average computer user might find the whole process to be a bit overwhelming, despite that fact that they too would probably succeed after following all the detailed instructions (especially Bob's recent plain language approach to the step by step tutorial). In this respect, I completely understand Chris' desire to simplify the whole process with a VT download from the ML. On the other hand, and aside from any underlying reasons, it is Fridger's prerogative to object to, or concur with, the way in which his tools or their fruits are applied. Fridger's dedication to Celestia goes waaaaay back and I believe his work has been indispensable in it's developement. I personally, extend my deepest gratitude to him and Chris for the many, many, long, hours they have toiled over it's developement. That aside, I don't believe that Chris' intention to write a "normal map creation tool" was meant as a snide toward Fridger, nor do I believe that Fridger was implying he would separate himself from the Celestia community. But, what do I know? Maybe I'm wrong and would simply like to believe it was all a misunderstanding. Anyway, I think I'll give Fridger's tools a chance and follow Bob Hegwood's tutorial. The Earth texture screenshots I've been seeing look too awesome to pass by.

[cartrite]

Tech Sgt Chen,
This kit will give you a head start. It is found at my web site's SWBD page. After you download the files you need you just put them in the right place and click on the bat files. While you are trying to comprehend the tutorials at CM you can look at the bat files and get a better idea of what is going on. Then you can customize the bat files or write your own. You do need about 20 GB free disk space and about half an hour for the bat files to finish.
cartrite

[Tech Sgt. Chen]

Thanks Cartrite. That texture kit was my first download of the process. Though admittedly, it'll probably be a while until I'm actually ready to tackle this project, I'm kind-of looking forward to it. My time management is still a bit stifled. I just updated your site to my favorites. Can't wait to put the watermask to the test.

[mikej]

I am going to give "Brain Dead" and Cartrite's instructions for the use of these tools a shot. A VERY brief shot! We all know that Bob is not really "Brain Dead" But when it comes to computer "stuff" I am probably catatonic I really enjoy Celestia! I do NOT enjoy spending a lot of time on things that should be simple. Chris is right - it would be much easier and "enjoyable" to just download what we want! If I figure out how to create an Earth VT I will be quite happy - BUT, I would be happier still if I could just run it without the "work" (probably will be damned for this attitude!
I can barely figure out how to post on this forum!!

It is hard to understand the reasoning here. The tools are open source but restricted? This program is beautiful and free and I hope it continues to evolve, but I don't have the time or energy to "go to school" just because I would like a nicer texture!
If I have problems, I most likely will not ask for help. It's not worth the aggravation

[John Van Vliet]

--- edit ---

[bh]

Heh... I'm on the fence on this one.. I agree with both arguments. Good luck Mike.