Celestia Forums

Hello:

Since this is a two-subject yet interrelated post, I'll break it up into two parts.

PART 1: Fightspit's 64 & 128 VTs (Installation/Viewing Quirks)

I spent alot of time downloading the 4 Gig worth of 64 and 128K of my first VTs by Fightspit from the Motherload catalog page (http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/catalog/earth.php). I chose those because I have a Pentium D system and it should work OK.

The attached images are hopefully self-explanatory; the various views, and a screenshot of my \extras directory as it stands right now, showing what I have so far downloaded and installed:

--- "64K_BMNG_level0-1_PNG" through "128K_BMNG_level5_part8_PNG", and "64K_BMNG_spec_PNG" for specular (which is probably in the wrong place since as shown in image, it's messing stuff up.



Current ...\Celestia\extras directory:



I would have contacted the author before posting here but there is no profile or contact modality -- and yes, I have and looked ainto Bob Hegwood's VT for Dummies. Each developer's scripts may vary in one small detail that could mess everything up. I just want to get it right.

As far as the "64K_BMNG_spec_PNG," I have experimented by leaving it in the directory and also cutting it out, with the shown results in the image. Here is Fightspit's readme:

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

"You just put the "BMNG" folder in Celestia\extras folder and you must need the 64K or 128K Blue Marble Next Generation texture (http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/catalog/earth.php)
to run the Specular texture."

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

As far as I can see at the catalog page, there is no 128K version. Whether one is needed or not, I'm obviously also doing something else wrong and/or missing an other file or files. Please let me know how to fix this particular situation.


PART TWO: Why I Got Celestia - A Couple of Things to Keep in Mind

I need to qualify the main reason I got Celestia, so that you can perhaps tell if the above VTs and/or others would be preferable to what I am trying to do. The only reason I chose Fightspit's VTs is that it was the most exhaustive list -- and figured the higher the resolution, the better.

I have plenty of hardrive space and I download very late at night/early morning so as to respect the iBiblio servers load, so any suggetions on what would work best are most welcomed.

Aspects of my situation to consider:

A) I live on a very limited disability budget and so any "Well, go buy this and that..." would not fit into my budget (unless it's really, really cheap :)

I've used almost all my savings to get the tools to do this project that I hope will eventually return me to financial independence after 15 years of not-quite-too-much-fun times.

B) I built my own computer and been on the Net for 10 years, but I'm not a programmer or coder. I can't afford to get bogged down with complex tweaking of or creating scripts.

My disability is a form of anxiety disorder, and if things get way to mathematical and code-y, I tend to panic and frustrated. Besides, I have so much to do just with the project itself for it's a one-man gig, including composing, arranging and mixing the music.

I was lucky enough that someone told me about Celestia. It's opened up a level of possible creativity I hadn't imagined considering my finances, and I am VERY grateful for it.

So here is the general and central reason I got Celestia:

--- To .avi some awesome fly-overs of various resolutions for a short film/music video project I'm working on (the said hopefully-my-ticket-out-of-poverty one).

Ideally, I would like to be able to do the same level of detail as I can with NASA's Blue Marble World Wind (Google Earth actually has some better resolutions. But I can't afford to buy the Pro Google Earth version or pay for license/copyrights). My guess is that Celestia offers more tight controls than either of the two, too.

A few examples of what I would like to create:

--- Banking in from space a la StarTrek, cruising over Earth from night into dawn, and hopefully find some reasonably well rendered cities and interesting landscapes. That is, ones that are not patchy/quilty due to the variety of satellite and their imagery that comprise NASA's total Blue Marble database (these can vary quite alot and get quilt-like).

Here's a compressed and size-reduced example from Google Earth from around my area in West Los Angeles that shows both city and vegetation. I polished it up a bit (sharper, a little more saturation, etc.).

Maybe Celestia isn't meant to have this particular type of detail. I am too new to it to know.



Hopefully, once I got the right VTs and whatever other maps, textures and/or files you would suggest for the best results for what I have described, I can then figure out how to use AutoPilot and get to some fun-serious work.

_______________________________________

Pardon the ramble, but I wanted to be clear on what my particular goals so as to not waste your time or mine on irrelevant questions that may come up.

Thank you for reading this and for your help.


~ Soniclight
(a.k.a. Philip K, Los Angeles, CA USA)

Philip,

Fightspit is the username of a person who frequents the Celestia Forum here regularly. You can use the Forum's Searth page to find his postings and thus his contact information.

Unfortunately, you actually do need to state your questions. The pictures don't tell me what you want to know about them. It looks like you're using specular texture maps as surface texture maps, but I don't know if that's intentional or not. I'm guessing not.

The directory that you show has several different types of files mixed together that should be in separate folders.

I wrote a Web page where I tried to describe how various types of textures can be used with Celestia, including VTs. Maybe it'll help.
http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/textures.html
.

Soniclight,
If you have read the readme in 64K_BMNG_level0-1_PNG

You just put the "BMNG" folder in Celestia\extras folder.

Don't forget to download the others levels on Celestia MotherLode !!

In Celestia, yous just click-right on the Earth, select "Alternate Surface" and "64K Blue Marble Next Generation".


If you want to improve the 64K to 128K, download the level 5 on Celestia MotherLode.

A fast computer is very recommanded !


Fightspit.

you must put the BMNG (which are in all 64K and 128K folder) folder in extras directory.
Look the file and folder structure:




edit: I just want to say thank for your effort to do a super and explicit post !
If you have a problem send me an PM (private message).

I can't get to this right now due to stuff going on, but wanted to aknowledge and thank you both for your prompt replies.

--- Seeing Fightspit's printscreens -- very helpful -- I've obviously got my folders wrong, which Iwill correct.

--- The images were included simply to demonstrate what happened when I fired up Celestia and went to a bookmark, nothing else. Demonstrating that there was some boo-boo (above to-be corrected file organization).

--- I'll check out the referred textures page as suggested. And I will post Qs if/when they arise.

______________

Note to FightSpit:

As stated above, thanks for the clarifying printscreens, offer for asking you Qs via PM and for letting me know you are alive and well here :)

P.S. to FightSpit:

I would have sent you a PM on the below not-VT related subject, but clicking your PM button only goes to your VTs page at the Motherload.

Maybe I'm too new at this community, but there doesn't seem to be any contact modality for you: all of the "Fightspit" links next to your VTs and such all go back to your page there (http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/catal ... tor_id=107)

So one goes around in circles. Maybe there is a board glitch? If so, let Selden know. I don't feel it right for me to tell him since it's your quadrant of the Celestia universe. (But if he reads this, he'll obviously know now, won't he? :)

......................

Here is the little non-VT note:

When I came by to view this posting's replies, it was all stretched out -- almost every paragraph turned into long sentences that one has to scroll way to the right to read in their entirety (like word-wrap got nuked).

From what I can tell, this is because all of your printscreens lined horizontally, instead of being stacked vertically.

Being a senior member and now moderator at another phpBB board over the some years, I know that sometimes the paragraph spaces can do weird thing. I.e. Preview doesn't always match what one sees once it's actually submitted and published.

In fact, I had to mess around with my opening posting here a bit before I got it to look the way I wanted to.

So my suggestion would be that you re-check your posting in Edit and see if there is a space between each "[img]....[/img]" line for each pic. It'll make everyone's postings easier to read (in their original intended paragraph layout, no way-to-the-right scrolling needed).

Soniclight,

Fightspit's "pm" button works fine for me.
That button is immediately below his Forum posting just above here, between the "profile" and "email" buttons.

(I have had problems with Firefox going to the wrong page when not "logged in" to the Forum. Instead of displaying the login screen, it goes to the forum's main page. That could be a bug in my local Firefox installation, though. The Celestia Forum is configured so that you have to be logged in to send a PM.)

The MotherLode is completely separate from this Forum and can only provide e'mail links, which many people don't want publicised.

If Soniclight is wanting to do allotr of zooming in close to the Earth for surface details maybe he should check out NASA's WorldWind.


Don. Edwards

Selden:

I could have sworn I hit PM, but must not have. My apologies.

-----------------------

Don Edwards (and anyone else):

I'm going to use my World Wind if necessary for flyovers that don't include seeing the curvature of the Earth. I'll put and seamlessly join several images of what I wish to fly over and then pan-crop in my video editor.

However, I also want to see what I can do with Celestia because then it would be all-in-one. So I might as well re-state my above musing about details into a question:

>>> Q-1: Once set up correctly and with best VTs etc. for the job, can Celestia provide the kind of detail like the Google image I posted above? From your comment, it seems like not.

If not, there is no point my downloading a slew of stuff only to find out it won't work for those particular shots.

>>> Q-2: Whether or not I could do so, I still wish to have Celestia do the most possible, so could you or someone provide a suggested "tbest" list of VTs and other stuff (i.e. clouds, cloud shadow, etc. files) to get?

With all the different versions by various developers of at times seemingly overlapping textures, this would be most useful.
Now, as to the season's issue:

--- I'm not picky but prefer to see as much land mass in the northern hemisphere as possible, so my guess is that a summer-in- north/winter-in-south file would be best.

But again, whose version of what to get is still perplexing. I just want to make ood quality, inspiring Earth sequences.

Besides, the better they will look, the better PR for Celestia since I will certainly thank this wonderful free-to-the-people resource and its contributing developers in the closing credits.

...............................

Am I kissing some derri??re here? Sure, just a micron's worth. But I'm also a stickler for creative courtesy and thus copyrights, etc. One has to give credit where credit is due. It's just the right thing to do.

Especially with such a generously free project. Freeware and enhancing people's lives without ulterior financial motives is one of the aspects of the originating spirit of the Net.

Time to put a sock in my sophing here. Again, thanks for reading and for further assistance i.e. list of best VTs, etc. much appreicated.

I hope you will enjoy with my texture and t00fri is making an IMPRESSIVE 64K normal map which is better than me .
Look here:
http://celestiaproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9236
or here (recently):
http://celestiaproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9877&start=30

Fridger are not going to distribute it.It is a pity.
He simply suggest that eveyone would made tour own.It??s not simple as that.This kind of thing need a refinement that people that don??t understand programmation can??t do.I barely understand image processing.I can only made a crude version of it.Unfourtanetelly I will have to wait for Godot...

Fightspit wrote:I hope you will enjoy with my texture and t00fri is making an IMPRESSIVE 64K normal map which is better than me .
Look here:
http://celestiaproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9236
or here (recently):
http://celestiaproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9877&start=30

danielj wrote:Fridger are not going to distribute it.It is a pity.
He simply suggest that eveyone would made tour own.It??s not simple as that.This kind of thing need a refinement that people that don??t understand programmation can??t do.I barely understand image processing.I can only made a crude version of it.Unfourtanetelly I will have to wait for Godot...

NOW you are writing things you don't understand.

Application of our new tools does NOT require ANY knowledge in image manipulation whatsoever. Everyone will get the SAME excellent normal map quality by typing one command into the console of any operating system!

That's why these tools were programmed! These tools also do NOT require a fancy computer. They work in the same quality on every average home computer.

However, you should be able to READ. Namely the detailed Tutorial that I am going to finish soon in CelestialMatters. If you do things different from what is written ( as you normally do! ) you will fail...

Bye Fridger

Pardon late reply. Regarding the suggested links and image quality, nice, but if not available, well, so it goes, and I can't follow the discussion since it's over my head :)

As to my 64K/128K situation, I've installed everything as per Fightspit's instructions and 64K looks fine, but 128 still black and white as shown above. But then from what I've read around here, it's not true 128, so maybe just not worth it -- until further developments? For now, I just pass on 128K.

________________________

Help Needed - Panic Setting In...

Other newbies have griped about how developers seem to sometimes forget that not everyone is a coder/developer and thus can leave the new people hanging in "What Do I Do?" land. Sometimes with dumb questions, others not dumb due to lack of instructions.

Case in point: Nightspit really was really helpful by sharing screenshots at this post showing clearly the directories should look like and it was easy to implement.

I realize or guess that most of you developers are doing this on the side as a hobby-of-love and thus cannot be expected to cater to every dumb or confused concern. But a little more clear instructions would be so helpful.

I'm starting to experience some panic about all this (referring to my disability as mentioned earlier) and need some help. I would like to enhance my experience and use of Celestia through extra maps, yet it's still a mystery to me how to make it work, i.e.:

--- What is/are the correct directories to create for such files?

--- Does one have to create/how does one create .ctx referral and/or other necessary files so Celestia can read them?

Again, newbie/non-programmer issue here: Most of what developers offer to users have either no such files included, and/or even less instructions included readme or otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that such files are even available, but they are useless without correct installation. And, I'm usally a staunchly DIY guy, but when I start feeling panicky, I have to ask for help.

So as to make this request easier for both teacher (you) and student (me), I have included two printscreens:

A) One is from Selden's tutorial, "Creating Textures for Celestia" ( a thorough, tutorial but my mind blanks out with all the info for I'm not wanting to create maps, only install existing ones). This image seems to suggest creating an "AddOn" directory.

B) Contents of where I currently keep all downloaded yet-to-be-installed files from various developers; so far, there are two categories or types that are highlighted in green.

Once I have mastered installing these, it will probably be able to figure out future installs. And, I'm certainly open to suggestions on what other files/maps I should get. I chose those shown with limited newbie discernment, non necessarily wisdom.





Now, I realize this could be word and time consuming to write the how-to out here, so there may be another way to perhaps do this in a less time intensive way for all concerned (again, you have your own lives to lead, too). Maybe it won't be that complicated -- but just in case it could be, here is what the...

"Phone Home" Option:

--- Whoever would be willing to help already has all the information of the specific files I wish to install from the included printscreen.

--- That individual would PM me and we could set up a mutually convenient time whereby I would call you (or viceversa, whichever you are most comfortable with) and we could probably breeze through it.

Thank You.

Soniclight,
You asked

--- What is/are the correct directories to create for such files?

The problem is, "it depends." That's why my Texture and addon-intro pages are so explicit about one particular directory layout. I know that one works. There are others which probably work, but I really don't have the time to figure them out. If you follow the layout I suggest, then there are specific things you can do to a broken Addon that will be sure make it work, which may include creating appropriate SSC catalog files.

--- Does one have to create/how does one create .ctx referral and/or other necessary files so Celestia can read them?

In general, the person downloading a VT Addon shouldn't need to do anything to .ctx files. If one is not included, then that usually means that you have downloaded what is a second or third part of the total Addon and will need to to find and download the first part. Many of the gigantic VTs have an initial Zip archive that contains the necessary directory structure, catalog files and some of the lower resolution level# directories. There'll also be one or more additional parts in separate Zip files which often contain only tile images which have to be placed manually into the correct level# folder.

Usually this is explained in a text file that's included with the inital Zip file but which too often is not included in the other parts of the Addon.

You'll notice that I haven't said that they *all* follow this or that organization. Too many Addon creators simply don't realize that the people who'll want to use their Addons don't understand everything that's involved. They've forgotten how long it took them to learn how to create it. Now they just "know" what to do.

A) One is from Selden's tutorial, "Creating Textures for Celestia" ( a thorough, tutorial but my mind blanks out with all the info for I'm not wanting to create maps, only install existing ones). This image seems to suggest creating an "AddOn" directory.

Actually, it *insists* that you create an Addon directory

After you've been using Celestia for a while, you'll have several different versions on your system. Keeping your addons all under a single Addon directory will make it *much* easier to move them all at once between the different copies of Celestia.

I'm sorry my Textures page causes you to "blank out"

I wanted it to be as complete and detailed as possible, so that someone reading it could find the information about whatever was giving problems. I'm a person who prefers to read documentation and then apply it, rather than jumping in and just trying stuff, so it's hard for me to work from the other viewpoint.

Your BMNG directory structure looks reasonable to me, although it isn't in an Addon folder, but you don't show where your BMNG and BMNG_spec ctx files are (they should be in /extras/BMNG/textures/hires/ ) or where the SSC file is which references those ctx files (it should be in the directory /extras/BMNG/ ).

Does this help a little?
Unfortunately, I really don't have the time to spend on the phone or IM to help directly.

Thanks, Selden, and that's fine about you being busy. Little by little, I'll figure this stuff out (yeah, I've calmed down and not in panicville right now :)

I'll come back and reply once I have studied your instructions and try out what I can with it. Probably post some smaller resolution screen shots of new-and-improved directories I will have attempted (I"ll follow your "AddOn" way of doing it).

I'm in the middle of my ongoing journey with creating custom light and glow effects for my mini-film project. My avatar here is actually a way over saturated crop from one of my test scenes. Once I have some nice batch of Celestia and WW generated clips, I'm going to have some cosmic fun with it all.

Visual wide-angle Intimations of rapture without religious harmonics - lol.

Light has fascinated me most of my life, and it stated with a book on the Universe and stars when I was about 6. Since I can't afford plugins and fancy stuff, I resort to trying to apply some ingenuity. Necessity is the mother of yaddiyatta.

Alright, alright, I'm rambling off-topic. Time to outta here.

NRN unless so desired.

selden wrote:Your BMNG directory structure looks reasonable to me, although it isn't in an Addon folder, but you don't show where your BMNG and BMNG_spec ctx files are (they should be in /extras/BMNG/textures/hires/ ) or where the SSC file is which references those ctx files (it should be in the directory /extras/BMNG/ ).

It is the first thing what I thought and my screnshots in my post before show all ssc and ctx file into the correct folder.

I ran into a situation that I need to address before I go ahead with correcting the directories:

--- Is there a way to put all the maps and textures on an other drive or partition?

Reason:

I always keep my large multimedia files on an other partition and/or hard drive, separate from the OS. The way Celestia is set up by default puts everything in the OS drive, and its substantially slowing down my daily defrags due to the large number and volume/number of files.

I.e. extras\BMNG alone is 4.7 Gig which has many files.

If it is possible, then this may get complicated for a newbie like me. My guess is that one would then have to change the .ssc and/or other files so that Celestia can point to the right, on-other-partition directories.

Let me know what could or could not be done. Thanks.

Yes, you can.
Look at the celestia.cfg in the main folder (Celestia):

Thanks. Getting a bit code-y for me, but I'll just have dive in, figure it out and deal with it :)

LATER EDIT:

Well, that was pretty easy really. I've dealt with Registry edits on occasion and other XP tweaks. This was nuttin'. I even tested it by deliberately misspelling the new directory in the "celestia.cfg" and it showed no alternate views. Then changed it back, and my 64K altennate showed up again.

Meaning, I did it right. Now, I have to do what Selden told me to do-- put the right files in the right directory order. A job for tomorrow...