UPDATE!! - Ultimate Terraformed Mars Texture

Tips for creating and manipulating planet textures for Celestia.
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Post #101by Darkmiss » 13.05.2007, 16:46

t00fri wrote:That produces surely incorrect results for the applications required in Celestia. Standard normalmap generators assume /flat/ geometries of the surfaces. We need normalmaps on /spherical/ or even more complex curved surfaces!


Ahh that would be why i was getting strange results and seam lines then
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WOW!

Post #102by Tuefish » 18.05.2007, 17:10

Holy MacGoodness! that is incredible!
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Post #103by t00fri » 18.05.2007, 19:34

Don,

while enjoying your nice textures, could you explain to me why the land on Mars looks soo desert-like despite all the water you have added??

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Don. Edwards
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Post #104by Don. Edwards » 19.05.2007, 01:16

Fridger,

The areas you call desert are high in altitude, hence they are dry. All the very high mountains on Earth are fairly dry. All the moisture in the air freezes out. In the case of Tharsis it so high that the atmosphere just doesn?€™t hold any moisture. So yes the entire Tharsis region would be very dry and basicly wouldn?€™t change much in appearance over time. The south is dry simply because there isn?€™t as much water in the south and it is all at higher elevation. Water moves downhill and the north is all downhill from the south. It may not be totally accurate but then again we don't have many climate models of what Mars would look like in this case. But it?€™s better than what anyone else has put together over the years.
Also, thanks to Fridger?€™s question I had put together a simple image comparing how the jet streams work on Earth and how they would work on Mars. In the process of creating the image I found a big mistake on my part. Once I had the zonal flows showing over the Terraformed Mars texture I realized that I have made a very big mistake. The large Tharsis Ice sheet simply can?€™t be where it is. Its simple weather dynamics and for some reason I missed it entirely. The way the jet streams would move on Mars are similar as to how they move on the Earth. At least in theory, I suppose due to its smaller size there may be only two jet streams, a northern and a southern both moving eastward, but I don?€™t have any data to prove that at this point. So the tropic regions above and below the equator would be moving do west while the polar jet streams would be moving do east. Even taking into consideration that Tharsis would deflect and move the Jet streams the western ice sheet simply can?€™t be where I put it. So I have to move it to the east side. Doing so will totally change things on this texture. I think I can leave the glacial skirt around Olympus Mons. But as it stands the sheet is going to move to the Mariners valley side. So the texture is delayed once again due to technical problems. But this is the kind of thing that happens when you are trying to create a hyper realistic texture like this one. If it weren?€™t for Fridger?€™s question I would have blindly continued on and released a texture that was inaccurate.

These are the images I made.


Image


Image


As can be seen in the Mars image, the ice sheet is residing on the wrong side, away from the zonal flow that caries sub tropical and tropical moisture. At this point I may just leave the whole ice sheet off. I will have see how things look. It is at least going to be smaller if it?€™s on the east side. I may vary well totally remove Olympus Mons ice skirt as well. It would be on dryer side of Tharsis so there really wouldn?€™t be enough moisture to condense out as snow and ice. This shouldn?€™t hold things up as much as it sounds. Everything is in layers that can be moved and edited separately from the main texture and it may be a blessing in disguise. I certainly have my work cut out for myself. But I want it as accurate as possible as well as looking pleasing to the eye.

Oh, and one other thing. Another reason that there are vast dry stretches across this Mars is because the humans of this time have decided to leave some of Mars untouched and in its natural state or at least as natural as it can be. You can call them vast Martian Natural Geologic parks if you will. These are a more enlightened group of humans than we I think.

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Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it

Thanks for your understanding.

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Post #105by buggs_moran » 19.05.2007, 02:02

Don. Edwards wrote:You can call them vast Martian Natural Geologic parks if you will. These are a more enlightened group of humans than we I think.


As long as they don't build a glass bridge jutting out over valles marineris, I'll go!

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Post #106by t00fri » 19.05.2007, 08:35

Hi Don,

many thanks for picking my question up and trying to investigate what might have happened meteorologically on a terraformed Mars. Your arguments sound largely plausible to me.

Still it seemed that on your Mars there is little or no vegetation almost EVERYWHERE. Vegetation along the warm jet stream areas usually provides strong meteorological feedback that in turn modifies the vegetation and so on until some sort of a balance is reached.

So your depicted stage of "water without vegetation" might be a sensible pre stage of what we are seing now.

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Post #107by Spaceman Spiff » 19.05.2007, 16:04

Don,

before you continue doing something you then regret and want to change, perhaps you should read up what's known about Mars' atmosphere. For example, it seems jet streams are determined by Hadley cells, and in turn the Coriolis effect. I know that while Earth has 3 Hadley cells between equator and pole, Mars only has one. You can get a start on the science here: http://www.adlerplanetarium.org/cyberspace/planets/mars/circulation.html

If it's too confusing, maybe just accepting you'll get something wrong anyway will help you continue: it seems you always get the highest praise from all for whatever you do!

Spiff.

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Post #108by Don. Edwards » 20.05.2007, 00:43

Thanks Spiff,

I had this info in the past and was trying to track it down again. So actually my diagrams of the Earth are in error as well. This does bring into a point though. How many hadley cells will a Terraformed Mars have, and with an atmosphere twice as thick as the Earths. If Earth has six hadley, three in the north and three in the south, than how many will a Terraformed Mars have. Because Mars is roughly half the size of the Earth, I would think that for hadley cells would be enough to get the clouds and weather features we see on Earth. That being the case, I still have the ice sheet on the wrong side of Tharsis. I found a render of a Terraformed Mars,, and it is apparently a new one that was posted in a Terraformed Mars art gallery. It shows exactly what I discovered before I even saw the picture. So in all good conscience I need to make the changes to the texture.

Here is what that render looks like.

Image

By the way, Fridger thought my Terraformed Mars looked shy on vegetation; this one is positively barren looking in comparison. But it does show everything I mentioned in the previous post, and he even created the ice skirt around Olympus Mons. So mine will end up looking a great deal like this one, but with a higher sea level and more vegetation. I of course will still retain a copy of the original for posterity?€™s sake. But I think I really need to fix this.

Don. Edwards
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I might answer a PM or a post if its relevant to something.

Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it

Thanks for your understanding.

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Post #109by Don. Edwards » 20.05.2007, 11:45

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have already started the new Tharsis Ice Cap. I think it is going to look allot better than the old one did. So everyone can see that its not going to distroy the texture here is a small capture of were I am at from inside Photoshop.

Image

I know its flat nad not from inside Celestia, but I did this in an hour. I think its well one its way. I still have some tweaking to do, but in the end I still stand by my choice to fix this and make it right.

Comants are welcome as always.

Don. Edwards
I am officially a retired member.
I might answer a PM or a post if its relevant to something.

Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it

Thanks for your understanding.

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Post #110by Tuefish » 20.05.2007, 20:45

I think you should make the olympus mons ice skirt thicker on the valles marenis side :)
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Post #111by Don. Edwards » 20.05.2007, 21:26

The air on that side of Tharsis would be very dry, hence no ice. While the other side is jutting out into an ocean, so there is more moisture on that side, hence it would be thinker. It is even that way in the render above.

Don. Edwards
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Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it

Thanks for your understanding.

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Post #112by Dollan » 20.05.2007, 22:27

Don. Edwards wrote:The air on that side of Tharsis would be very dry, hence no ice. While the other side is jutting out into an ocean, so there is more moisture on that side, hence it would be thinker. It is even that way in the render above.

Don. Edwards


Yup, that sounds logical.

Are you planning on putting any kind of run-off channels or river beds heading down from the ice cap to the ocean? Just a thought.

...John...
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Post #113by Don. Edwards » 21.05.2007, 00:39

Dollan,

I did have that on the previous build of the texture, so yes there will be run off chanels, there just wont be as many and most of them now will run down into Valles Marineris via Noctis Labyrinthus. There wil be a few to the north and east but I am leaving the west dry.

Don. Edwards
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I might answer a PM or a post if its relevant to something.

Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it

Thanks for your understanding.

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Post #114by Spaceman Spiff » 21.05.2007, 12:53

Don,
Don. Edwards wrote:How many hadley cells will a Terraformed Mars have, and with an atmosphere twice as thick as the Earths.


I think it does not depend on the density of the atmosphere, only these factors: the angular speed of the planet and the size of the planet.

Once I saw a formula for calculating the number of cells, though now I can't find any reference like that. I remember you had to round the result to the nearest odd integer. The number of cells per hemisphere has to be odd. Think of cog wheels who's teeth must not grate against each other. By the way, I now see that 'Hadley cell' is strictly the name given to the cells adjacent to the equator. The others are 'Polar cells' about the poles and 'Ferrell cells' in between.

The situation seems to be like this: on average over the year, heating is greatest at the equator and makes hot air rise there, while heating is least at the poles, and cold air falls there. In between, air tries to travel between pole and equator along longitudes. The Coriolis force makes these longitudinal flows shift sideways and on Earth at about 30?° latitude the Hadley cells end. At the poles, the Polar cells end at 60?°. In between, a Ferrell cell must sit to make the circulation consistent - like cog wheels.

Anyway, I think the simplest way to think about it is like this: taking Earth's three cells per hemisphere as a real example, a planet rotating twice as fast would break the flow in half the longitudinal distance as Earth, while a planet twice the size as Earth would fit in twice as many cells. Thus, each of these planets would have five cells per hemisphere, maybe seven, but not six. Mars' has almost exactly the same rotation but is only half the size, so it has room for only one cell per hemisphere - 1?? is rounded down to 1 - and it's a Hadley cell. Exercise!: Suppose something like Gliese 581 c may be 1?? times the size of Earth and spin in only 12 hours. Now 3 ?— 1.5 ?— ( 24 hours / 12 hours ) = 9, so it's very like to have 9 cells per hemisphere - a very banded planet. Large size and fast rotation is why gas giants like Jupiter are very banded.

Implications for textureers of super Earths:
a) Cloud textures should be banded.
b) Surface textures should be banded for deserts and forests to the same degree.

Apart from that it's hard to say, because the more one looks into it, the more detail one discovers - hence why I warn that eventually you discover a new fact the seems to invalidate everything you've done. For example, I've found something called the Rossby (or Kibel) number: Rossby number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossby_number). Can we assume the Rossby number is similar for Mars weather as for Earth's? Answers on a supercomputer, please...

Spiff.

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Post #115by t00fri » 21.05.2007, 13:10

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Implications for textureers of super Earths:
a) Cloud textures should be banded.
b) Surface textures should be banded for deserts and forests to the same degree.

...
Spiff.


Spiff, Don,

that's what my common sense as a physicist with interest in atmospheric/weather phenomena tells me, without taking much recourse to odd numbers of 'Hadley cells' and the like.

Bye Fridger
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Post #116by ajtribick » 21.05.2007, 13:37

Though in the case of Gliese 581 c itself, the planet is close enough to the star to get tidally locked, so rotation rate would be more like 12 days rather than 12 hours... simulation of the atmosphere at systemic.

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Post #117by Dollan » 21.05.2007, 19:25

t00fri wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Implications for textureers of super Earths:
a) Cloud textures should be banded.
b) Surface textures should be banded for deserts and forests to the same degree.

...
Spiff.

Spiff, Don,

that's what my common sense as a physicist with interest in atmospheric/weather phenomena tells me, without taking much recourse to odd numbers of 'Hadley cells' and the like.

Bye Fridger


So... if you have a planet twice as large as Earth, but with the same amount of geological variation (mountains, oceans, etc.), you would still develop atmospheric banding?

...John...
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Post #118by t00fri » 21.05.2007, 19:45

Dollan wrote:
t00fri wrote:
Spaceman Spiff wrote:
Implications for textureers of super Earths:
a) Cloud textures should be banded.
b) Surface textures should be banded for deserts and forests to the same degree.

...
Spiff.

Spiff, Don,

that's what my common sense as a physicist with interest in atmospheric/weather phenomena tells me, without taking much recourse to odd numbers of 'Hadley cells' and the like.

Bye Fridger

So... if you have a planet twice as large as Earth, but with the same amount of geological variation (mountains, oceans, etc.), you would still develop atmospheric banding?

...John...


John,

banding is about all that comes to my mind, be it right or wrong ;-) (that's what common sense is all about...) . I have never run weather simulation code myself to study dependences on the various inherent parameters (did you? ;-) ) .

Bye Fridger
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Post #119by Don. Edwards » 21.05.2007, 20:01

Guys,

I did some more reading, the hadley cells are governed by two factors.
1. Atmospheric density
2. The Coriolis Effect

The denser the atmosphere, the more the Coriolis Effect causes drag, creating more hadley cells, or in Earths case Hadley, Ferris, and Polar.

Text from Adler Planetarium:
The Coriolis Force

When a planet spins, moving air is dragged sideways following the rotation of the planet. This movement is called the Coriolis Force.
The sheer mass of the air the Coriolis force moves tends to break up a Hadley cell into several smaller ones. As a result, Earth has six Hadley cells: three in each hemisphere.

Mars, however, has such a thin atmosphere that the moving air has little mass. The wind is still dragged sideways, but a cell does not break up. So Mars is stuck with only one Hadley cell that extends from the tropics of the summer hemisphere to the mid latitudes of the winter hemisphere. The winds caused by the cell, called jetstream winds, move at 112-335 miles per hour.

Now this Mars does not in fact have the same thin atmosphere that is now present. It has an atmosphere that is twice as dense as ours on Earth. This is for the added green house effect and the added pressure will help a little with the lower gravity.

So if Earth is the model, this Mars would end up with twice the amount of Hadley cells as Earth, But I do think the planets size is a mitigating factor, so if physical size is taken into account, than a Fully Terraformed Mars might very well six Hadley cells, three in the north and three in the south.

So at this point again, we are back to guessing what would really happen on a Mars size planet with a thick atmosphere. If anyone knows of a way to model this out it would be interesting to find out for sure.

But I have seen a couple of renders of a Terraformed Mars that have ice over the western side of Tharsis instead of the west. Do they know something I don?€™t? I think that given what we do know of how atmospheric mechanics, it?€™s safe to say that I am probably close to being on the right track. Of course, if someone can prove me wrong about what a Mars with double Earths atmospheric pressure would be like, please do and I will make the texture fit those rules. At this point I think I going to continue in this direction. Besides, it?€™s not like I going to throw out the older texture altogether. I have several copies of it as it has evolved after all, six in total counting the newest one each over 1.5gb in size. So if it can be proven one way or the other, I do have a fall back texture to go back to.

Waiting for proof.

Don. Edwards
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Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it

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Post #120by t00fri » 21.05.2007, 20:10

Don. Edwards wrote:...
When a planet spins, moving air is dragged sideways following the rotation of the planet. This movement is called the Coriolis Force.

Don, while your explanation for this special case is correct, the Coriolis Force is a way more general concept in classical mechanics with many different sorts of applications...
Mars, however, has such a thin atmosphere that the moving air has little mass.


Who told you that Mars' atmosphere was so thin when the planet was green and full of blossoms ;-) ?

Bye Fridger
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