Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

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ElChristou
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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #21by ElChristou » 26.01.2009, 12:46

chris wrote:It's working fine for me... Can you give me a cel URL? If this is a clipping bug, it's possible that it occurs on ATI cards only--ATI hardware has shown a lot more sensitivity to clipping issues than NVIDIA hardware.

--Chris

I see this bug on Nvidia hardware; M4 here and here:

cel://Freeflight/2009-01-26T11:51:16.66 ... 5&select=M 4&fov=3.94495&ts=1&ltd=0&p=0&rf=1316631&lm=17936&tsrc=0&ver=3


cel://Freeflight/2009-01-26T11:54:03.99 ... 6&select=M 4&fov=3.94495&ts=1&ltd=0&p=0&rf=1316631&lm=17936&tsrc=0&ver=3

(probably related to Mac?)
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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #22by t00fri » 26.01.2009, 14:46

ElChristou wrote:
chris wrote:It's working fine for me... Can you give me a cel URL? If this is a clipping bug, it's possible that it occurs on ATI cards only--ATI hardware has shown a lot more sensitivity to clipping issues than NVIDIA hardware.

--Chris

I see this bug on Nvidia hardware; M4 here and here:

cel://Freeflight/2009-01-26T11:51:16.66 ... 5&select=M 4&fov=3.94495&ts=1&ltd=0&p=0&rf=1316631&lm=17936&tsrc=0&ver=3


cel://Freeflight/2009-01-26T11:54:03.99 ... 6&select=M 4&fov=3.94495&ts=1&ltd=0&p=0&rf=1316631&lm=17936&tsrc=0&ver=3

(probably related to Mac?)

Christophe,

thanks for sending the cel:://url at last... So I see M 4 first at close distance then --in the second cel://url -- from longer distance.

Everything looks perfect under Linux on my machine (FX 5900 Ultra). Then with the right mouse key, I move around M 4 and also there everything is fine. NO flickering either at this perspective. The only times when I can see some stars flickering is in the view from Earth, near the transition between central cloud sprite dominance to individual star sprite display, when the stars are very dim, close to the 1 pixel rendering cut-off.

++++++++++++
It would be important to know for the debugging, whether this effect (that I fail to see) was there already in the original SVN version of my globular package??
++++++++++++

I also have another complaint by Cham in my "books", of which I have heard neither a confirmation, nor gotten a cel://url:

Cham wrote:4- I noticed that in several cases, there's an isolated white blob which is standing pretty far away from the cluster. This solitary blob is annoying, visually. It should be removed.

With this diffuse description, I was unable to locate that mysterious "white blob"...

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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #23by Vincent » 26.01.2009, 17:25

t00fri wrote:thanks for sending the cel:://url at last... So I see M 4 first at close distance then --in the second cel://url -- from longer distance.

Everything looks perfect under Linux on my machine (FX 5900 Ultra). Then with the right mouse key, I move around M 4 and also there everything is fine. NO flickering either at this perspective.
Fridger,

I just tested your patch and everything looks good on my system too (see config below) when using Christophe's Cel URLs.
@+
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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #24by t00fri » 26.01.2009, 17:44

Vincent wrote:
t00fri wrote:thanks for sending the cel:://url at last... So I see M 4 first at close distance then --in the second cel://url -- from longer distance.

Everything looks perfect under Linux on my machine (FX 5900 Ultra). Then with the right mouse key, I move around M 4 and also there everything is fine. NO flickering either at this perspective.
Fridger,

I just tested your patch and everything looks good on my system too (see config below) when using Christophe's Cel URLs.

Very well, thank you, Vincent!

Very soon, probably tonight, my MARK II version of the patch will be ready along with various further quantitative checks for the correctness of my rendering results.... This will again involve quite a few code modifications/improvements.


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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #25by ElChristou » 26.01.2009, 21:03

Again I fear it's a Mac related bug; both urls are just at a point where M4 is highly unstable and flicker a lot...
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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #26by t00fri » 26.01.2009, 21:16

Hi all,

after going again through my previous globular patch code with special diligence, doing some further careful size comparisons (see below), and after some code modifications, here is the new resulting patch for download and testing. Again, the patch archive contains both a standard patch file and the individual modified C++ files as of the current rev 4606 for a simple replacement.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.celestiaproject.net/~t00fri/images/ ... _r4606.zip

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There was nothing much wrong previously, but there were a number of striking issues to be understood (like the above apparent M 13 size discrepancy)...Nevertheless I added several substantial code modifications after further thinking and understanding what is going on:

From my previous direct tests, there was little remaining doubt that the globular scale factor was correct. So there must be other reasons for the considerably smaller apparent globular sizes from my code, as compared to some photographs, notably from big telescopes. Some reasons I mentioned already previously, like many very faint cluster stars that connot be rendered in Celestia etc.


  • Clearly, if the radial globular luminosity distribution was falling off too steeply, the resulting globulars would appear too small as well.

    After plenty of further thinking and reading, I decided to replace my previously used radial King profile for 3d space by the (2d) skyplane projection of it. This form is mostly used by researches (King, Harris,...) in earthbound comparisons with globular observations. It indeed seems like the best approach, notably when the observer is far away from the globular. I had used the projected form already for the central cloud texture for that reason. One immediate benefit is that the skyplane projection is considerably shallower, hence more off-center cluster stars will become generated and then rendered.

    Yesterday, I first derived the modified math for the corresponding random generation of sprite stars according to the skyplane projected profile. Fortunately, all the previous "high-efficiency" tricks turned out to work as well, and that most effectively. I put up a commented Maple file, in case someone is interested how the used algorithm was actually derived.

    http://www.celestiaproject.net/~t00fri/images/King_profile.pdf

  • A modification which actually brought most improvement as to the apparent globular sizes was to make the size of the cluster stars proportional to the brightness parameter (adjustable via the ' [ ', ' ] ' keys)! This simple modification now allows to further enhance the brightness of the cluster stars in sync with that of the other stars in Celestia. The result is quite striking: if the magnitude threshold is set high enough via the ' ] ' key, many more peripheral stars are rendered now and the diameter of the globulars appears to substantially increase! This confirms the first suspicion I had and thus delegates the choice of brightness to the user's gusto.

    I recommend automag=ON with Auto magnitude limit at 45 degrees: 7.5

    This is good for both galaxies and globulars!

    In addition, I used a new procedural texture profile for the individual cluster stars:

    Instead of the previous Gaussian

    Code: Select all

    lumi = exp(-2.0f * (u * u + v * v)) - exp(-2.0f);

    that is shallow around its maximum (u=v=0), I now tried this exponential type

    Code: Select all

    lumi = exp(- LumiShape * sqrt(u * u + v * v)) - exp(-LumiShape);  (u^2 + v^2<=1)

    This shape has a sharp & small bright center. The bright (big) cluster stars even appear to have sort of a halo around the small bright core. The appearance seems way more "starlike". The orange Red Giant stars now look much smaller (but brighter) to the observer flying through the globular core (Hey Martin!).

    Note that the geometrical size of the cluster stars is strongly reduced via the convolution with the modified star texture shape! The reduction amounts to a factor of ~ 0.2 times the geometrical size! Despite better visibility of dim stars, the effective cluster size is rather smaller than before...

    Let me know how you like these new cluster star features! It's easy to restore the old ones, if people prefer them ;-) . Altogether: one main reason why the clusters looked too small, was due to my desire to make the geometrical star sizes as small as possible, in order to come closer to the actual diameters... But that prevented quite a few peripheral stars from being rendered!

  • Actually, since the globulars appear now substantially larger, I returned to only ONE globular size definition, the mu25 isophote radius! Hence the radius and apparent (angular) diameter values you read on the top left of the canvas now again correspond to the size that is graphically indicated by the 4 red selection cursor triangles. That's much more elegant, of course.

    Please give me feedback about this choice, too!

Finally, let me discuss some crucial further size tests I did:

A) First consider M 4. Let us compare with this accurate summary of the various sizes of M 4 depending of how it is observed:

http://www.seds.org/messier/m/m004.html

Here is an important summary quote (with given values cross checked from other sources):

SEDS page wrote:Its (M 4's) angular diameter, seen on deep photographs, is about 36 minutes of arc, more than that of the Full Moon; this corresponds to a linear diameter of about 75 light years. On typical photos it appears somewhat smaller at about 26', and visually it was estiamted at 14 arc minutes. Its tidal radius, determined by the distance where tidal gravitational forces of the Milky Way Galaxy would cause member stars to escape, is estimated at 32.49', or about 70 light-years, so that this globular gravitationally dominates a spherical volume 140 light-years in diameter.

M4 is one of the most open, or loose, globulars, as its classification in concentration class IX indicates. Its compressed central core was measured at 1.66' diameter, or linearly 3.6 light-years. Its half-mass radius is 3.65' or about 8 light-years, so half the cluster's mass is concentrated in an inner spherical volume of 16 light-years diameter.

In the first image of M 4 and the Moon from Celestia with my new patch, I have added various circles corresponding to the various possible ways of observation.

Image


In this shot, the app. magnitude has been set only to VISUAL, i.e. m=6.5. The green circle corresponds to the visual size estimate of M 4 (14'), and you can see how well it matches!! Note also (pink!) the tiny central core diameter of only 1.66'...

Next, we turn up the brightness (' ] ' key) to maximum (with automag=ON, of course) and consider the next test image:

Image

You can see that NOW the M 4 stars almost completely fill up the 36' circle corresponding to the mu25 isophote radius! Hence in this "telescope view", the size of M 4 and the full Moon are certainly comparable.

In the two images you also can see that I have reverted to the mu25 isophote radius for the 4 red selection cursor triangles (as announced above).


B) In the next image of M 22 with brightness at maximum, you can see how well the orange mu25 isophote circle is now filled with stars. For globulars (like M 22) with relatively low King concentration c, the peripheral stars are particularly conspicuous, since the luminosity profile is comparatively shallow.

Image

If brightness is down to a recommended m=7.5, the apparent M 22 size is clearly somewhat smaller.


C) The final comparison image concerns the apparent size of M 13 relative to some environment marks, notably compared to the distances to the two bright stars Hip 81848 and HIP 81673. I was totally confused 2 days ago, when I had discovered the corresponding beautiful (but highly overexposed) above photo, taken with a BIG telescope. The previous M 13 size in Celestia was seen to be much smaller...

Image

Again note the orange mu25 isophote radius circle along with the tiny pink circle corresponding to the core radius. Brightness is turned up to maximum and indeed you see that a substantial portion of the mu25 isophote circle is filled with cluster stars.

So things seem pretty consistent now! Note however, that for these comparisons I used 65536 stars rather than only 8192. That's one "abstraction" we have to live with, but I wanted to demonstrate that the underlying math is correct.

Let me know...

Fridger
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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #27by cartrite » 26.01.2009, 21:55

With this new patch, the apparent sizes look a lot better. Good job and many thanks.
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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #28by t00fri » 26.01.2009, 22:05

cartrite wrote:With this new patch, the apparent sizes look a lot better. Good job and many thanks.
cartrite

Thanks for checking, Steve!

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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #29by ajtribick » 26.01.2009, 22:28

Using Qt4, Xubuntu 8.10 (amd64) and NVIDIA GeForce 8600 GT card I get flicker at high zoom levels ... this is not just a Mac bug. Unfortunately a URL is of limited use since it appears to depend on window size, and in any case loading Celestia and pasting the URL where I got the blank screenshot below resulted in a fine image (but would flicker when I moved around), but Christophe's URLs are all fairly close to where I'm seeing the effect.

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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #30by t00fri » 26.01.2009, 22:42

ajtribick wrote:Using Qt4, Xubuntu 8.10 (amd64) and NVIDIA GeForce 8600 GT card I get flicker at high zoom levels ... this is not just a Mac bug. Unfortunately a URL is of limited use since it appears to depend on window size, and in any case loading Celestia and pasting the URL where I got the blank screenshot below resulted in a fine image (but would flicker when I moved around), but Christophe's URLs are all fairly close to where I'm seeing the effect.

Andrew,

as I wrote earlier, I do see some flicker, too, that I also (partially) understand. But this is NOT the kind Cham is claiming:

Cham wrote:In the case of M4, I noticed a flickering effect while zooming on the cluster. At close range, the effect is also occuring while rotating gently around it. I can even make the cluster to totally vanish !
...

This is the cluster which suffers the most of the flickering while rotating around the cluster. This is a huge bug, IMO.

The only amount of flickering that I can see is in the view from Earth, near the transition between central cloud sprite dominance to individual star sprite display, when the stars are very dim, close to the 1 pixel rendering cut-off.

I certainly doesn't look like huge bug to me ;-)

What you are seing, does it look like a huge bug to you? If yes then we are seing different things...

I understand that you have tested the latest patch that I have just submitted?

Thanks,
Fridger

EDIT: on your above screenshot I cannot see anything, except blackness. With any of my computers...
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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #31by t00fri » 26.01.2009, 22:53

Well, besides Linux I now have encircled M 4 at close distance under Windows XP, SP3 with my notebook in all sorts of ways (with the new patch) and cannot see any flickering or unstability whatsoever. Sorry, I need more hints ;-)

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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #32by ajtribick » 26.01.2009, 22:54

The flickering I'm getting is when changing zoom levels when parked fairly near the cluster - from the vantage point of Earth the frame rate drops quite sharply at high zoom levels but the flickering isn't noticeable.

cel://Follow/M 4/2009-01-26T22:53:23.37786?x=AAAAAAAXnAVpLIv2/////w&y=AAAAAKCqtaFLQHsC&z=AAAAAADWuYZOCJAW&ow=-0.967825&ox=-0.0211205&oy=-0.201919&oz=-0.148655&select=M 4&fov=19.485&ts=1&ltd=0&p=0&rf=1316631&lm=17940&tsrc=0&ver=3
E.g. from this location, zooming in and out is very flickery and the cluster flickers a lot when rotating round it (right click rotation). This sounds somewhat like the effects Cham was reporting.

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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #33by cartrite » 26.01.2009, 23:05

Using the cel from above,

Code: Select all

cel://Follow/M 4/2009-01-26T22:53:23.37786?x=AAAAAAAXnAVpLIv2/////w&y=AAAAAKCqtaFLQHsC&z=AAAAAADWuYZOCJAW&ow=-0.967825&ox=-0.0211205&oy=-0.201919&oz=-0.148655&select=M 4&fov=19.485&ts=1&ltd=0&p=0&rf=1316631&lm=17940&tsrc=0&ver=3

I can see the flicker. At times, M4 disappears. But if I rotate the view just a touch vertically, the flickering is gone and view is stable. It seems that something in the horizontal plane from the cel url is clipping the globular.
This url is rotated slightly up and is stable on my system.

Code: Select all

cel://Follow/M 4/2009-01-26T22:56:46.19157?x=AAAAAABi0qCVKxkX&y=AAAAAGBHmxemipYB&z=AAAAAICiCRW1SkgI&ow=-0.813462&ox=-0.096773&oy=0.567647&oz=-0.0817939&select=M 4&fov=19.485&ts=1&ltd=0&p=0&rf=1316631&lm=17940&tsrc=0&ver=3

Actually, my "stable url" is not that stable either. It starts flickering too if it is rotated enough.
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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #34by t00fri » 26.01.2009, 23:13

ajtribick wrote:The flickering I'm getting is when changing zoom levels when parked fairly near the cluster - from the vantage point of Earth the frame rate drops quite sharply at high zoom levels but the flickering isn't noticeable.

cel://Follow/M 4/2009-01-26T22:53:23.37786?x=AAAAAAAXnAVpLIv2/////w&y=AAAAAKCqtaFLQHsC&z=AAAAAADWuYZOCJAW&ow=-0.967825&ox=-0.0211205&oy=-0.201919&oz=-0.148655&select=M 4&fov=19.485&ts=1&ltd=0&p=0&rf=1316631&lm=17940&tsrc=0&ver=3
E.g. from this location, zooming in and out is very flickery and the cluster flickers a lot when rotating round it (right click rotation). This sounds somewhat like the effects Cham was reporting.

I am sorry, Andrew. I set up your cel://url under Linux and --from the location given-- did lots of in and out zooming (SHIFT+mouse_left) as well as rotation around (right click rotation). M 4 appears dead steady all the way. Not the slightest amount of flickering I can see.

You did not answer: are you using my latest patch that I have just sumbitted for download a short while ago??

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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #35by ajtribick » 26.01.2009, 23:16

Cel_glob_260109_r4606

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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #36by t00fri » 26.01.2009, 23:17

cartrite wrote:Using the cel from above,

Code: Select all

cel://Follow/M 4/2009-01-26T22:53:23.37786?x=AAAAAAAXnAVpLIv2/////w&y=AAAAAKCqtaFLQHsC&z=AAAAAADWuYZOCJAW&ow=-0.967825&ox=-0.0211205&oy=-0.201919&oz=-0.148655&select=M 4&fov=19.485&ts=1&ltd=0&p=0&rf=1316631&lm=17940&tsrc=0&ver=3

I can see the flicker. At times, M4 disappears. But if I rotate the view just a touch vertically, the flickering is gone and view is stable. It seems that something in the horizontal plane from the cel url is clipping the globular.
This url is rotated slightly up and is stable on my system.

Code: Select all

cel://Follow/M 4/2009-01-26T22:56:46.19157?x=AAAAAABi0qCVKxkX&y=AAAAAGBHmxemipYB&z=AAAAAICiCRW1SkgI&ow=-0.813462&ox=-0.096773&oy=0.567647&oz=-0.0817939&select=M 4&fov=19.485&ts=1&ltd=0&p=0&rf=1316631&lm=17940&tsrc=0&ver=3

Actually, my "stable url" is not that stable either. It starts flickering too if it is rotated enough.
cartrite

Ah Steve, that sounds more familiar. I have seen similar effects earlier, but independently of my globulars that did not even exist when I saw such phenomena for the first time ;-).
My suspicion agrees with yours. Probably, there is something else moving into the light path, which might be a very sensitive event.

I'll go on trying...

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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #37by t00fri » 26.01.2009, 23:40

Sorry, I have no "luck", neither in Windows XP/SP3 nor under Linux.

Can someone hit the ' * ' key at the moment of the flicker. This makes the observer look exactly backwards. Perhaps there is something there that I don't have? ;-)


How about installed Add-Ons?? I never use any ;-)

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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #38by cartrite » 27.01.2009, 00:04

I tried both cel urls with patched-4606-celestia.exe on WindowsXP, SP3 and both were stable. I didn't see any flickering. I'll try Linux again without my extra folders.
The flickering I saw was on Linux kde with Suse 11.1.
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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #39by t00fri » 27.01.2009, 00:11

cartrite wrote:I tried both cel urls with patched-4606-celestia.exe on WindowsXP, SP3 and both were stable. I didn't see any flickering. I'll try Linux again without my extra folders.
The flickering I saw was on Linux kde with Suse 11.1.
cartrite

Aha, I developed most of the globular code under Windows ;-) . Do you get the flickering more or less if you turn brightness up/down?

Note I don't have anything (Add-Ons) in extras!! Cham will typically have millions of add-ons ;-)


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Re: Significant Update Patch to my Globular Package for Testing

Post #40by cartrite » 27.01.2009, 10:35

I can't get rid of the flickering on Linux. I think I saw than Andrew has a 64 bit system. My Linux is also 64 bit. I wonder if this is a 64 bit driver issue? I'm using driver 180.22. My WindowsXP is 32 bit.
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