Cloudy_3D and GLnebula : real-time nebula visualisation

[selden]

Chris has not said anything to me about his schedule.

[Fenerit]

Probably the vanishing of Chris is due to his personal will of stay apart the forum for not to be distract by requests and replays; perhaps when he'll reappear some steps in program's development would have been done.

[Cham]

Probably the vanishing of Chris is due to his personal will of stay apart the forum for not to be distract by requests and replays; perhaps when he'll reappear some steps in program's development would have been done.

OOO BOY ! You are such an optimistic person !

[rthorvald]

what we need most urgently is new and LOOOONG overdue code AND further bug fixing such that at last Celestia 1.5.0 can take off. Anything else appears of lower priority to me

But this is just immediate concerns. If you want the developer group to attract more expertise, you must show them what they can participate in. As it is now, only the most die-hard astronomy fans will wade through all the zillion forum posts to find the stuff they care about.

It is really quite simple to publish the roadmap and keep it fresh by posting relevant news snippets to it from time to time - in an orderly layout. And i think the payoff can be well worth it over time.

Ref my previous posting...

- rthorvald

[t00fri]

If you want the developer group to attract more expertise, you must show them what they can participate in. As it is now, only the most die-hard astronomy fans will wade through all the zillion forum posts to find the stuff they care about.

- rthorvald

Runar,

we do have standard public dev information/communication channels, like the dev forum thread and the dev list (and lots of PM's of course).

People who are not able to follow those discussions fairly easily are simply not qualified to contribute in Celestia's /coding/. In fact, Celestia is very peculiar compared to most other coding projects in the net: it requires a considerable math/physics/astronomy/astromechanics knowledge besides advanced coding abilities. It is no accident that most devs (including Chris) have at least a bachelor in one of these subjects. This does not mean of course that non-scientists could not make MOST useful contributions to Celestia (as we of course know very well). Also, Celestia meanwhile has a pretty complex code structure that requires quite some efforts to look through.

Exceptions would be some rather general GUI coding jobs, like add-on managers for example .

I think the organizational task you mention is quite hard, indeed. We are all a bunch of individualists, with considerable specific expertise. So for Celestia it is hardly practicable that one "Guru" writes up a coding schedule and the rest "goes to work" on it . I could easily expand here...

Take a few typical issues:

-- Celestia's atmospheres: they are still bad, NOT because there is a lack of coding power! People who want to help here must KNOW what Mie theory is and how it works. We are dealing here BOTH with physics AND coding difficulties.

-- Celestia's stars: they are still bad NOT (only) because of lack of coding power. There is still an ongoing discussion of priciple among the local physicists and Chris.

-- Celestia's orbits in connection with frame dependence: this was a long physics discussion to convince Chris how this should be done...

-- Celestia's nebulae: one needs lots of specific astronomy knowledge besides coding ability to make progress in accord with scientific standards here.

etc.

Bye Fridger

[ElChristou]

People should be contributing documentation and examples to the Celestia WikiBook.

The English version is at
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Celestia

I think it would be reasonable for other translations to be made, too.

Selden, of course the Wiki is another good platform to inform people, but IMHO, we should first try to polish the main site with a good description (also from a technical point of view), what catalogues are implemented, new picts, global roadmap, etc.
Once this is done, a quick work on the forum (also recently Runar was talking about a brand new look, so it would be the right moment to rethink the structure), then the rest. To me for now (perhaps I'm wrong), the Wiki is still a secondary source of info it's why I think first in the main site and the forum...

I think this whole discussion is quite futile at this point.

-- we had it several times already without effecting anything
-- after announcing "full-time" work (= 50 + 5 hours/week) on Celestia, Chris has vanished since more than a month

Humm... no comment...

So, let him (and other devs ) return before anything sensible may be agreed on...

The problem is that clearly Chris (and other devs) seems to not be interested in the comm, so if we could redo this part of the copy meanwhile some are on holidays, it would be a nice way to begin a new season with a brand (and better) new frame...

I do agree with Runar because even the more childish projects (games in general) do have a better comm than Celestia...
(and BTW, all this work is not at cost of coding because Chris and devs won't be the ones who will do the job...)

[ElChristou]

...we do have standard public dev information/communication channels, like the dev forum thread and the dev list (and lots of PM's of course).

People who are not able to follow those discussions fairly easily are simply not qualified to contribute in Celestia's /coding/. In fact, Celestia is very peculiar compared to most other coding projects in the net: it requires a considerable math/physics/astronomy/astromechanics knowledge besides advanced coding abilities. It is no accident that most devs (including Chris) have at least a bachelor in one of these subjects. This does not mean of course that non-scientists could not make MOST useful contributions to Celestia (as we of course know very well). Also, Celestia meanwhile has a pretty complex code structure that requires quite some efforts to look through.

Exceptions would be some rather general GUI coding jobs, like add-on managers for example .

I think the organizational task you mention is quite hard, indeed. We are all a bunch of individualists, with considerable specific expertise. So for Celestia it is hardly practicable that one "Guru" writes up a coding schedule and the rest "goes to work" on it . I could easily expand here...

Take a few typical issues:

-- Celestia's atmospheres: they are still bad, NOT because there is a lack of coding power! People who want to help here must KNOW what Mie theory is and how it works. We are dealing here BOTH with physics AND coding difficulties.

-- Celestia's stars: they are still bad NOT (only) because of lack of coding power

-- Celestia's orbits in connection with frame dependence: this was a long physics discussion to convince Chris how this should be done...

-- Celestia's nebulae: one needs lots of specific astronomy knowledge besides coding ability to make progress here.

etc.

Fridger, the problem is that nowhere (apart here of course) one can see what the project needs. Sourceforge propose the option of creating some "job adds" but of course Chris don't use it...

SO if we could first define correctly what is Celestia (to the date I never saw a correct definition somewhere), then show the statut, then ask for specialised manpower, perhaps we could generate a much more dynamical place. Imagine you are a Mie specialist, perhaps you will be pleased to participate, but for this you must be able first to read somewhere that your skills are needed! The place for that is first the main site (AND Sourceforge), then the forum...

[rthorvald]

we do have standard public dev information/communication channels, like the dev forum thread and the dev list (and lots of PM's of course).

People who are not able to follow those discussions fairly easily are simply not qualified to contribute in Celestia's /coding/

We are not talking about the same thing; you are talking about qualifications, i am talking about attractiveness. Having this information orderly presented and highly visible will generate interest more easily. This is pretty basic user behaviour, regardless of who might show up: such a page does two things at once:
1) assure the newcomer that what goes on "under the hood" is highly focused
2) serves out a LOT of the most essential information at a glance

... This makes the threshold for digging in much lower since it demonstrates the professional level of and commitment to the project immediately... As opposed to having to discover it by wading through the entire forum.

I think the organizational task you mention is quite hard, indeed

No, it can be made very easy. A day or two to setup the format and the same kind of blog system we use on the CM, together with a drop-box where the devs post just a link to wherever something particularily interesting is posted in the regular places for me to pick up. I (or whoever else wants the job) would do the rest - that is, maintain the blog.

- rthorvald

[t00fri]

So what you both seem to be calling for is kind of a "support manager".
Actually, we had one for a while (taken from SF Dev list):

Don Goyette dgoyette Support Manager

Don "embellished" all sorts of things, I remember, including celestia.cfg.

If you think this is what Celestia needs, go ahead ...

I think of course that we need more "substance", which we don't get by "embellishing" things. Capable people willing to help will be attracted by Celestia's superior conceptual design also without the above proposals. That's how it happened so far.
Capable people will easily understand what is going on here...
More capable people is what Celestia needs foremost, in order to make REAL progress.

Bye Fridger

[rthorvald]

So what you both seem to be calling for is kind of a "support manager"

Public Relations, actually
It is not about embellishing anything. Just show what is already there.
But ultimately it is up to Chris - if he wants this on the Celestia site. And the devs would need to go along, of course.

- rthorvald

[t00fri]

So what you both seem to be calling for is kind of a "support manager"

Public Relations, actually
It is not about embellishing anything. Just show what is already there.
But ultimately it is up to Chris - if he wants this on the Celestia site. And the devs would need to go along, of course.

- rthorvald

Runar, I placed "embellishing" in quotes to indicate a more general meaning, like e.g. translating the dev techno chats into text that novices might also understand etc.

So how about starting with explaining Mie theory and the specific problems connected to Celestia's atmospheres?

Bye Fridger

[LordFerret]

If the devs find it annoying or distracting having to deal with laymen (such as myself ), then why not a Support Manager? Wouldn't this afford the devs the focus they prefer, and at the same time afford the laymen someone to guide them?

A little PR never hurts.

[rthorvald]

So how about starting with explaining Mie theory and the specific problems connected to Celestia's atmospheres?r

No, that is your job. Being lazy, i??ll just post a link to one of your threads

- rthorvald

[rthorvald]

[
Runar, I placed "embellishing" in quotes to indicate a more general meaning, like e.g. translating the dev techno chats into text that novices might also understand etc.

No need to translate anything. After all, the novices are not the people we want to catch. It would not be the purpose of that page to explain... It would be a portal, nothing else.

- rthorvald

[Ozark]

I am fairly new to the Celestia forums, I have asked my share of "newbie" questions and may ask more in the future. But I love the challenge of figuring out on my own how to use all the features Celestia has to offer. I am no programmer am not familiar with anything non-windows (sorry Fridger, I know how that bugs you ) but i am learning. The help I have recieved from other users especially Fridgers nmtools, John Van Vliet and MinGw and Cartrite and all the other posts on this forum i have read have helped me IMMENSELY. I Dread the thought that the Celestia community is Dwindling. Every day I get on the forum to see what new with every aspect of Celestia. Development, textures, scripts, add-ons, all of it. The fact that it is designed to be scientifically accurate is the biggest attraction for me, but because i am a "laymen", the add-ons are equally important. They allow me to become part of the community, as opposed to simply download what others have done. I can create my own, for myself and others. To me thats HUGE. Maybe I will get good enough at coding (given enough time that ) is to help out in some small but valuable way. Or maybe simply input from a "laymen" can be useful. Either way this piece of software is much too valuable to let Whither away. The forums are also (to me anyway) part of the software. I get to read interesting, and Compelling and sometimes debatable Scientific Posts from all manner of people be it Space, coding, physics, or even Sci Fi.

Now that i have given my "two cents" I wish to extend a gracious Thank You to the Celestia Development Team for taking their time to create a Fantastic piece of software and "offering" it to the public free of charge. And to everyone who has contributed to it via Add-ons or Posts!


Thank you all!!!

Ozark

[Fenerit]

Fridger, I use your words just to accentuate where have to be in my humble opinion the restrictiveness of the tenets found through the forum.

-- Celestia's atmospheres: they are still bad, NOT because there is a lack of coding power! People who want to help here must KNOW what Mie theory is and how it works. We are dealing here BOTH with physics AND coding difficulties.

-- 1) Spherical atmospheres around non-spherical objects.

-- Celestia's stars: they are still bad NOT (only) because of lack of coding power. There is still an ongoing discussion of priciple among the local physicists and Chris.

-- 1) Unknow stars and catalogs integration;
-- 2) Switch beetwen spectral class;

-- Celestia's orbits in connection with frame dependence: this was a long physics discussion to convince Chris how this should be done...

-- 1) Sample point of orbit;

-- Celestia's nebulae: one needs lots of specific astronomy knowledge besides coding ability to make progress in accord with scientific standards here.

-- 1) Fridger's catalog is very huge to popolate the Celestia's space meanwhile the rest of the catalog resides in the storage's capabily of an entire future cabled world.

[Fenerit]

I am fairly new to the Celestia forums, I have asked my share of "newbie" questions and may ask more in the future. But I love the challenge of figuring out on my own how to use all the features Celestia has to offer. I am no programmer am not familiar with anything non-windows (sorry Fridger, I know how that bugs you ) but i am learning. The help I have recieved from other users especially Fridgers nmtools, John Van Vliet and MinGw and Cartrite and all the other posts on this forum i have read have helped me IMMENSELY. I Dread the thought that the Celestia community is Dwindling. Every day I get on the forum to see what new with every aspect of Celestia. Development, textures, scripts, add-ons, all of it. The fact that it is designed to be scientifically accurate is the biggest attraction for me, but because i am a "laymen", the add-ons are equally important. They allow me to become part of the community, as opposed to simply download what others have done. I can create my own, for myself and others. To me thats HUGE. Maybe I will get good enough at coding (given enough time that ) is to help out in some small but valuable way. Or maybe simply input from a "laymen" can be useful. Either way this piece of software is much too valuable to let Whither away. The forums are also (to me anyway) part of the software. I get to read interesting, and Compelling and sometimes debatable Scientific Posts from all manner of people be it Space, coding, physics, or even Sci Fi.

Now that i have given my "two cents" I wish to extend a gracious Thank You to the Celestia Development Team for taking their time to create a Fantastic piece of software and "offering" it to the public free of charge. And to everyone who has contributed to it via Add-ons or Posts!


Thank you all!!!

Ozark

If you see Celestia as space in which putting objects, there is place even for biological structures; that is, one could use this program for purposes totally unrelated with astronomy or astrophysics.

[t00fri]

If you see Celestia as space in which putting objects, there is place even for biological structures; that is, one could use this program for purposes totally unrelated with astronomy or astrophysics.

Fenerit,

yes, I completely agree: Celestia is a general vizualisation framework rather than a specific application. That's what makes it so versatile for many different tasks.

Bye Fridger

[t00fri]

So how about starting with explaining Mie theory and the specific problems connected to Celestia's atmospheres?r

No, that is your job. Being lazy, i??ll just post a link to one of your threads
- rthorvald

Mie Theory? No idea... Does this have to do with special asian noodles?

Anyway, the people you want to catch will be Mie theory experts, notably after enjoying the new pleasing Celestia forum environment

Bye Fridger

[ajtribick]

As far as I am able to remember, the last time there was rapid development was Fridger and Toti's FT versions, rather than the current situation of waiting for Chris to do another long-delayed prerelease. Maybe it would be better to have some unofficial development versions going around out there rather than what seems to the end-user to be stagnation/abandonment of the project. (When did 1.4.1 come out again?)

But I'm not a dev, so I don't really know how the relevant people feel about such things.