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Reality and fiction

Posted: 11.11.2005, 19:28
by Boux
I have the feeling that the structure of this forum should be changed.
The fictional side of things has been growing lately in such a way that reality and fiction are no longer clearly separated.
I have nothing personally against sci-fi and fantasy but it looks like that these are getting more and more mixed up with science.
Anything fictional (addons, whatever...), should be discussed in a dedicated 'Fiction' section of the forum.
Oh well, maybe I am just bored with all these dumb*** TV series :roll:

Posted: 11.11.2005, 19:33
by Cham
I agree. It has been discussed before, but it's still a problem.

Posted: 11.11.2005, 20:22
by Malenfant
I agree... I think Chris should restructure the forums (and assign Admin privileges to someone who actually USES the forum so spammers can actually be banned, new mods can be created, and things can be rearranged etc).

I've been thinking about this myself, here are some ideas -

- Add a separate spacecraft/models addons board. A lot of addon discussion seems to be about that, I think it'd be useful to have a dedicated board for it. This would be about construction, orientation, and texturing of 3D models that aren't planetary/stellar bodies (ie spacecraft, space stations etc). Possibly split this into Scientific spacecraft/models and Fictional spacecraft/models?

- Create a "Scientific Add-ons and Textures" board to focus discussion on extras for which there is actual science data available. This should be actively moderated so that off-topic discussion is moved to more relevant boards to keep the signal to noise ratio as high as possible.

- Assign an active Moderator for the Development board. Maybe even allow write access on the Development board available only to a select core of developers. Posters with access would be active developers of Celestia code or scientific add-ons - basically selected based on merit, knowledge and contribution. People could be added to this based on what they do on other boards, and by PM discussion with moderators, or newcomers could be allowed in on a probationary period to see how it goes before being allowed to stay (or not as the case may be) depending on their contributions.

- Tie the Scripting board with the Development board a little more closely. It seems to me that Scripters are somewhat separate to Developers and I don't really see why this should be the case. It's quite obvious to me that Scripting - especially with CelX - is not just about tours and flyarounds: scripters can also add functionality to Celestia itself (eg my planetary magnitudes script, or phase angle calculators and zoom to fit scripts etc). Developers and Scripters should be encouraged to work together to consider incorporating some of these useful function scripts into the core of Celestia.

- Create a "Fictional Addons and Textures" board for discussion about scifi addons, fictional planets (and fictional textures for real planets) etc.

- rename Purgatory to "Off-Topic Chatter" or something. Makes it more obvious what it is, plus doesn't offend people so much when their topics are moved there ;). Or just remove it completely - there's no obligation to provide a place to allow people to randomly shoot the breeze here.

- Assign an active moderator to the Physics/Astronomy board to keep things on topic and educational. Vague philosophy/crazy ideas/metaphysics/unanswerable questions would be shunted to Off-Topic Chatter where they belong.

- Heck, assign active moderators to ALL the boards to keep them focussed. Or at least just make sure that the moderators that are around do keep an eye on things and move topics to the correct place if they're not there already. ;)

- rename "Celestia Users" to "Celestia Assistance" or "Celestia General" or something, and make it obvious that this is the place to ask for help with how to use the program and request features.


I'd also rearrange and reprioritise the board structure somewhat, so the main forum page looks like this:

Celestia General
Celestia Scientific Addons and Textures
Celestia Scripting
Celestia Development
Celestia Bugs
Physics and Astronomy

Spacecraft/Models
Fictional Addons
Fictional Textures
Off-topic Chatter

i.e. keep the stuff relevant to Celestia at the top of the forum page, and keep the fictional/offtopic stuff separate at the bottom.

Of course, this is all moot if Chris doesn't want to make someone else an admin....

Posted: 11.11.2005, 22:55
by Dollan
The general layout looks good, but "hiring" too many moderators is really ggoing to only cause problems, unless they are moderators for *only* a specific section of the forum.

The only major problem I have with your ideas is restricting posting in certain sections to only "qualified" contributors or developers. This smacks of elitism, and some of us might actually be interested in how things are progressing and curious enough to ask questions. If someone abuses their posting privilesdges, simply kick them out. that is what a moderator is for (partly), after all.

If there is a need for only core developers to communicate without distractions from other members, then email fits that bill admirably.

...John...

Posted: 11.11.2005, 23:20
by Malenfant
Dollan wrote:The general layout looks good, but "hiring" too many moderators is really ggoing to only cause problems, unless they are moderators for *only* a specific section of the forum.

Either way I think we need more than just the one moderator at the moment... and we do need an active Admin who posts and uses the board all the time too. Chris is on too rarely to fulfil this role.

We don't need one mod for every board though. Maybe two or three to handle the whole thing should be enough - but they have to be actively involved in the forums I think.

The only major problem I have with your ideas is restricting posting in certain sections to only "qualified" contributors or developers. This smacks of elitism, and some of us might actually be interested in how things are progressing and curious enough to ask questions. If someone abuses their posting privilesdges, simply kick them out. that is what a moderator is for (partly), after all.

It's nothing to do with elitism, it's more to do with reducing the noise on the forums and making it a better place to discuss actual development. IMO Development shouldn't be a place where people ask how things are progressing or ask general questions - that would be better placed in General. I think Development should be the reserve of the qualified people who are actively developing and testing code. Though you're right, it'd be a bit hard to figure out who deserves to be there or not.

If there is a need for only core developers to communicate without distractions from other members, then email fits that bill admirably.


Well there is already a developer email list. But just as people like Pat (one of the developers) doesn't like using the forums and prefers mailing lists, there are people who don't like mailing lists and prefer forums. It's kinda hard to find something that would satisfy everyone, I'm just thinking that maybe if the Development board was a 'reserve' for developers it might encourage more to post there.

Posted: 12.11.2005, 01:45
by Michael Kilderry
I actually wouldn't mind a restructure in the forum boards. Malenfant's layout looks pretty good, but if the forum is restructured, what are we going to do with all the old posts? Maybe we could put them all into a locked "Archive Board". This could possibly be placed off the main forum site with a link.

Posted: 12.11.2005, 01:59
by Malenfant
Michael Kilderry wrote:I actually wouldn't mind a restructure in the forum boards. Malenfant's layout looks pretty good, but if the forum is restructured, what are we going to do with all the old posts? Maybe we could put them all into a locked "Archive Board". This could possibly be placed off the main forum site with a link.


We could do that. Or the admin/mods could just move them over to the new boards. It'd take a long time but it could be done gradually rather than all at once. Maybe move the first page of all the boards over at first and then worry about the rest later.

Posted: 14.11.2005, 02:26
by rthorvald
Malenfant wrote:Maybe move the first page of all the boards over at first and then worry about the rest later.


I like the boards the way they are, and see no need to mess them up... But, as i have suggested before, the Addon forum might benefit by being supplemented with a "Fan Fiction" category. Because most of the stuff posted *is* fan fiction. It would make the forums tidy enough for me.

I really don??t see the need for more moderators just because the odd spammer shows up. Besides, where would you get them? ;-)

-rthorvald

Posted: 14.11.2005, 07:18
by Malenfant
rthorvald wrote:I really don??t see the need for more moderators just because the odd spammer shows up. Besides, where would you get them? ;-)


I'd do it - I got nothing better to do for the next few months. I suspect Selden would probably be glad for the help, saves him having to fix everything and delete spam posts all the time.

Heck, we just got another spammer just showed up this evening and posted some gibberish above this.

Posted: 14.11.2005, 07:51
by t00fri
Although I think Malenfants proposals were quite logical in structure, I tend to agree with Runar to leave things as they are. Germans are said to have a tendency for "over administration" ;-) . So I prefer to stay behind our reputation...There are quite a number of more concrete reasons, too.

Perhaps one might just add a board for "Fictional" things. This already might give rise to some improved separation between fictional and more scientific contributions.

Bye Fridger

Posted: 14.11.2005, 10:33
by Michael Kilderry
rthorvald wrote:
Malenfant wrote:Maybe move the first page of all the boards over at first and then worry about the rest later.

...the Addon forum might benefit by being supplemented with a "Fan Fiction" category. Because most of the stuff posted *is* fan fiction. It would make the forums tidy enough for me.

-rthorvald


I don't think it should be called "Fan Fiction" though, I'd prefer fictional solar systems and spacecraft be called either "Fantasy" or "Fictional addons". The name "Fan Fiction" sounds a little silly to me.

I remember this being discussed last time we brought this topic up, but back then I believe I was on the side of keeping the forum boards how they are. Now though, I think the forum could benefit from an addition such as a "Fictional Addons" board.

I actually wouldn't mind being a moderator either, I offered before back on the Motherlode replacement forum but I was a bit too new back then to be trusted with the job. :wink:

Posted: 14.11.2005, 13:14
by uXs
I wish there was a way to seperate fiction from fact in Celestia itself as well.

Posted: 14.11.2005, 15:21
by Dollan
Michael Kilderry wrote: I don't think it should be called "Fan Fiction" though, I'd prefer fictional solar systems and spacecraft be called either "Fantasy" or "Fictional addons". The name "Fan Fiction" sounds a little silly to me.


It really isn't silly, but it *is* typically reserved for works of written fiction (or the occasional movie, though these are more often called "fan films"), dealing with universes such as Star Trek, Stargate, etc. I can guarantee you that if there were a section called "fan fiction" added, it would receive posts of written works, or links to them, on a common basis.

...John...