Hey Everyone,
As many of you know I work as a computer tech most of the time when I am working that is. I also beta test a great many programs as they come out. At present I am in the Windows Vista beta program and a few things have come to light. I can't confirm any of them as of yet, I just started my download from MSDN today so we have to see as the betas come down the line as how this might effect Celestia. I have read and of course it is unconfirmed, that Microsoft has finally gotten ATI and nVidia to agree to cut back, way back on OpenGL support under Windows Vista. If this is true, this could mean anyone wanting to update to Windows Vista may not be able to run Celestia under it. It will all depend on whether our favorite hardware venders choose to continue to buck Microsoft. But that doesn't seem to the case as Microsoft is taking control of how drivers will be written for there new OS and they are using what seems to be strong arm tactics do it. Microsoft has wanted to put the final nail in OpenGL for years. This very well could be there wining hand to do it under the Windows platform at least. It is a well known fact that if you download drivers for your video card through Microsoft you get an edited version that breaks most of the OpenGL library. That is why we always tell users to go straight to ATI or nVidia for there driver downloads and never let XP or 2000 update your video drivers. Well it seems this step will be going farther as the replacement for Direct X is going to be totally tied to your graphics card. I have heard that one big game maker, ID, makers of Doom and Quake are a little put out about this. There game engines have always used OpenGL and they are now being forced to convert over to Windows Graphics Foundation or WGF as it is called for short. As I said I can?€™t confirm this as of yet. Of course the OpenGL community may very well find a way to get OpenGL to work under Windows Vista but I thought that since I had found some of this out I would pass it along to everyone. At this point we will have to take a wait and see attitude. I do know a few things at this point. Windows Vista will work with older drivers for graphics cards, namely Windows 2000/XP drivers. But using these drivers will disable all of Windows Vista?€™s visual enhancements, namely the transparent window borders and a few other features that are going to be using your 3D card to render them. I am sure as we go through all the beta trials over the next year we learn much more and I of course believe that there will be a way of hacking Vista to allow OpenGL to function properly. Of course there are many professional applications on the market that are not going to be willing to port there software over to DirectX or WGF so this all could blow over and be nothing. But I thought I would give everyone a heads up on some of the things I will be testing in the oncoming months. So to wrap this up lets hope that I am totally wrong on this subject. It might be interesting if Chris is out there and reads this if he may have any info on this. I now he has worked on nVidia graphics drivers in the past and being that he is closely involved with nVidia he may know something I and some of the sources I have read do not know.
Don. Edwards
Possible Problems with Celestia and Windows Vista!
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Topic authorDon. Edwards
- Posts: 1510
- Joined: 07.09.2002
- Age: 59
- With us: 21 years 11 months
- Location: Albany, Oregon
Possible Problems with Celestia and Windows Vista!
I am officially a retired member.
I might answer a PM or a post if its relevant to something.
Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it
Thanks for your understanding.
I might answer a PM or a post if its relevant to something.
Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it
Thanks for your understanding.
Just a funny question:
We have to pronounce Windows Vista or Bista (as the spanish) ?
We have to pronounce Windows Vista or Bista (as the spanish) ?
Motherboard: Intel D975XBX2
Processor: Intel Core2 E6700 @ 3Ghz
Ram: Corsair 2 x 1GB DDR2 PC6400
Video Card: Nvidia GeForce 8800 GTX 768MB GDDR3 384 bits PCI-Express 16x
HDD: Western Digital Raptor 150GB 10000 rpm
OS: Windows Vista Business 32 bits
Processor: Intel Core2 E6700 @ 3Ghz
Ram: Corsair 2 x 1GB DDR2 PC6400
Video Card: Nvidia GeForce 8800 GTX 768MB GDDR3 384 bits PCI-Express 16x
HDD: Western Digital Raptor 150GB 10000 rpm
OS: Windows Vista Business 32 bits
I suspect some of the larger 3D application vendors, like Autodesk (Autocad & 3D Studio Max) and Alias (Maya, used by many movie effects companies) may have some influence on this, although they may provide specialized drivers of their own 
One implication is that other operating systems eventually might be a better choice for 3D graphics if the card vendors can be persuaded to provide updated drivers for them. Some variant of BeOS or AmigaDOS might even make a comeback!
One implication is that other operating systems eventually might be a better choice for 3D graphics if the card vendors can be persuaded to provide updated drivers for them. Some variant of BeOS or AmigaDOS might even make a comeback!
Selden
BeOS is still alive as Zeta from YellowTAB in Germany.
QNX is still alive.
AmigaOS is still available, running on the PowerPC platform.
There are numerous other operating systems out there, some free, some experimental, some commercial-- Not just Windows, Linux/Unix (and related variants) and Mac.
Many of which can be run from bootable "live CDs", so you don't have to install.
d.m.f.
QNX is still alive.
AmigaOS is still available, running on the PowerPC platform.
There are numerous other operating systems out there, some free, some experimental, some commercial-- Not just Windows, Linux/Unix (and related variants) and Mac.
Many of which can be run from bootable "live CDs", so you don't have to install.
d.m.f.
There IS such a thing as a stupid question, but it's not the question first asked. It's the question repeated when the answer has already been given. -d.m.f.
Depends on how current the development is, and how cooperative the graphics card/chipset venders are in terms of driver code. and support.
The OSes I mentioned are still actively being developed.
Of course, if you have SDKs available, you could always write your own drivers. (Although most people seem to like "out of the box" operating systems and desktops.)
Additionally, I do think Celestia depends too much on OpenGL when it seems like OpenGL has alot of problems on its own. (I'm not trying to side with Microsoft, here- I do think OpenGL isn't flexable enough, but I don't like the idea of proprietary graphics rendering systems, either- Something needs to be done, even if accelerated software-based, rather than hardware-based renditions need to be implemented.)
d.m.f.
The OSes I mentioned are still actively being developed.
Of course, if you have SDKs available, you could always write your own drivers.
(Although most people seem to like "out of the box" operating systems and desktops.)
Additionally, I do think Celestia depends too much on OpenGL when it seems like OpenGL has alot of problems on its own. (I'm not trying to side with Microsoft, here- I do think OpenGL isn't flexable enough, but I don't like the idea of proprietary graphics rendering systems, either- Something needs to be done, even if accelerated software-based, rather than hardware-based renditions need to be implemented.)
d.m.f.
There IS such a thing as a stupid question, but it's not the question first asked. It's the question repeated when the answer has already been given. -d.m.f.
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Topic authorDon. Edwards
- Posts: 1510
- Joined: 07.09.2002
- Age: 59
- With us: 21 years 11 months
- Location: Albany, Oregon
There is a developer that recently got hardware OpenGL rendering working once again on Be/ZETA. It is for older GeForce cards at this point and still has some issues to hammer out but there is the posibility of a future if this can be done. I have tested Zeta and I can say I am impressed with what they have done to Be. It is definetly up to date on the interface and hardware support for the most part. I can't seem to use it with my GeForce2 GTS for some reason. The drivers throw the video out. My ancient ATI Rage Pro Turbo works fine. That was the only way I could test the darm thing. Ow, and Zeta can play DVDs, something I have yet to get to work under any linux distro.
It is taking me forever to download this darn ISO for Windows Vista. I am going to stop be my old boss' shop and see if I can download it there.
As for how to pronounce "Vista" , it will be the US english way of course "V" as in Victor.
Don.
It is taking me forever to download this darn ISO for Windows Vista. I am going to stop be my old boss' shop and see if I can download it there.
As for how to pronounce "Vista" , it will be the US english way of course "V" as in Victor.
Don.
I am officially a retired member.
I might answer a PM or a post if its relevant to something.
Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it
Thanks for your understanding.
I might answer a PM or a post if its relevant to something.
Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it
Thanks for your understanding.
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Christophe
- Developer
- Posts: 944
- Joined: 18.07.2002
- With us: 22 years 1 month
- Location: Lyon (France)
Sorry, but I really don't see how any of those fringe OS (Zeta/Be or AmigaOS) could become mainstream. QNX is a realtime OS designed for the embedded market, it is not intended for desktop use at all.
Even Linux which now has support from most of the major IT players (IBM, HP, NVidia, etc...) barely reaches the 1% penetration mark.
Today the best, and dare I say, only real contender to Windows on the desktop is OS X, and that's probably only true for the North American market where Apple's products are somewhat affordable.
I also don't buy the Microsoft will kill OpenGL on Vista thing. Omit proper drivers maybe, but prevent installation of updated drivers? That wouldn't make sense, even for MS. Vista is still beta and won't be released for another 12 to 18 months, drivers are known to come late in the Windows release cycle. I say, be patient.
And anyway, what ever happens to Windows, you'll always have the option to run Celestia at full speed on OSX and Linux. Porting to another OS is not on the TODO.
Even Linux which now has support from most of the major IT players (IBM, HP, NVidia, etc...) barely reaches the 1% penetration mark.
Today the best, and dare I say, only real contender to Windows on the desktop is OS X, and that's probably only true for the North American market where Apple's products are somewhat affordable.
I also don't buy the Microsoft will kill OpenGL on Vista thing. Omit proper drivers maybe, but prevent installation of updated drivers? That wouldn't make sense, even for MS. Vista is still beta and won't be released for another 12 to 18 months, drivers are known to come late in the Windows release cycle. I say, be patient.
And anyway, what ever happens to Windows, you'll always have the option to run Celestia at full speed on OSX and Linux. Porting to another OS is not on the TODO.
Christophe
The reason behind the penetration issue has to do with bundling. All PCs are bundled with their OS, preconfigured and ready to run "out of the box". The buyer has no say about selection of OS, for the most part. This is true with the Mac, as well- and Apple is one of the largest single PC manufacturers in the world- which demonstrates how many manufacturersx there are. All alternative OSs are by choice., which means there needs to be market awareness. That's Linux's strength at this time- It's the only alternative OS with a large enough user base to be counted.
I've tested QNX- while it's designed as an embedded OS, it can be run like any other OS, including a desktop, has some support for graphics and sound, and like everyone else, has a C++ compiler, in case there isn't software readily available. Right now, QNX is the most widely used non-Unix/linux/Solaris alternative OS out there, especially since Be went bust, and Zeta is not nearly as known as BeOS was. (And BeOS was good- I gave it a try, too.)
Just as alternatively, there are a number of shell replacements for Windows Explorer, but again, most aren't aware of them, so they'll happily use what Micro$haft gives them.
I use Windows ME- It doesn't mean I like it. Got no place to put anything else on this thing, though, so...
But the thing about alternative OSes is that you DO have an option- Quite a few of them, in fact. And if it seems lacking, therre are always resources out there to change that, even with just a little knowledge on how to compile, thenj off you go.
Linux alone is reasonably easy to run, so there is no excuse not to even give it a try. Bootable "live CDs" make tryingt out OSes painlesx.
As for Celestia.... I'd so love to have that on a bootable live CD so I wouldn't have to be dragged down by Windows' bloatiness.
d.m.f.
I've tested QNX- while it's designed as an embedded OS, it can be run like any other OS, including a desktop, has some support for graphics and sound, and like everyone else, has a C++ compiler, in case there isn't software readily available. Right now, QNX is the most widely used non-Unix/linux/Solaris alternative OS out there, especially since Be went bust, and Zeta is not nearly as known as BeOS was. (And BeOS was good- I gave it a try, too.)
Just as alternatively, there are a number of shell replacements for Windows Explorer, but again, most aren't aware of them, so they'll happily use what Micro$haft gives them.
I use Windows ME- It doesn't mean I like it. Got no place to put anything else on this thing, though, so...
But the thing about alternative OSes is that you DO have an option- Quite a few of them, in fact. And if it seems lacking, therre are always resources out there to change that, even with just a little knowledge on how to compile, thenj off you go.
Linux alone is reasonably easy to run, so there is no excuse not to even give it a try. Bootable "live CDs" make tryingt out OSes painlesx.
As for Celestia.... I'd so love to have that on a bootable live CD so I wouldn't have to be dragged down by Windows' bloatiness.
d.m.f.
There IS such a thing as a stupid question, but it's not the question first asked. It's the question repeated when the answer has already been given. -d.m.f.
IE 7 & Windows Vista 27/7/2005 sortir BETA [quote]
Microsoft has wanted to put the final nail in OpenGL for years. This very well could be there wining hand to do it under the Windows platform at least.
[quote]
Actually this would be the reverse...putting the final nail in micro$oft's coffin lid....
The only people that would use windows would be the everyday joe out to surf the web and check his email....
Game companies would port to linux....
And you know what I would laugh at the stupidity of yet another business blunder by corporate america....Ahh another company targeted for eventual hosile takeover by time warner hehe...
Really this would be the best thing that could happen....More support for linux would be found than for windows for alot of the main software....namely 3d studio and all those who depend on OpenGL...and soon Windows would become one of those rare and unsupported OS's and talked about in nostalgia circles....
Cant wait!
.
Microsoft has wanted to put the final nail in OpenGL for years. This very well could be there wining hand to do it under the Windows platform at least.
[quote]
Actually this would be the reverse...putting the final nail in micro$oft's coffin lid....
The only people that would use windows would be the everyday joe out to surf the web and check his email....
Game companies would port to linux....
And you know what I would laugh at the stupidity of yet another business blunder by corporate america....Ahh another company targeted for eventual hosile takeover by time warner hehe...
Really this would be the best thing that could happen....More support for linux would be found than for windows for alot of the main software....namely 3d studio and all those who depend on OpenGL...and soon Windows would become one of those rare and unsupported OS's and talked about in nostalgia circles....
Cant wait!
.
I'm trying to teach the cavemen how to play scrabble, its uphill work. The only word they know is Uhh and they dont know how to spell it!
Microsoft's tactics here are probably in violation of American antitrust law. They are attempting to leverage their dominance of the operating system market to win market share in the graphics market. They did the same thing with the browser market and killed off Netscape as a viable competitor. Now they appear to be doing the same thing to OpenGL. Perhaps someone should tell the US Justice Department about this?
NVIDIA did not always have the market share they have now. We should inform them now that if they do not provide full OpenGL support for the next version of Windows, their market share will dwindle. There is no requirement to use NVIDIA cards. Those who require proper OpenGL support will not be choosing NVIDIA.
The time to act is now. It will be too late in 12 months.
NVIDIA did not always have the market share they have now. We should inform them now that if they do not provide full OpenGL support for the next version of Windows, their market share will dwindle. There is no requirement to use NVIDIA cards. Those who require proper OpenGL support will not be choosing NVIDIA.
The time to act is now. It will be too late in 12 months.
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Topic authorDon. Edwards
- Posts: 1510
- Joined: 07.09.2002
- Age: 59
- With us: 21 years 11 months
- Location: Albany, Oregon
I actually remember way back to the pre-Windows 95 days when Microsoft and Silicon Graphics, the creator of OpenGL went into a partnership to create a new 3D engine for games and the like. It was called Fahrenheit. There were all sorts of cool logos and background pictures that the two companies came up with and all seemed marry and light. Then Microsoft came up with the first version of Direct X and that was the end of the partnership and everything went down the tubes. Sounds familiar doesn't it. It?€™s the same thing that happened between Microsoft and IBM over OS/2 and Microsoft and Apple over APIs that got liberated when MS promised to port Works over to the first Mac OS. There is an ongoing history here. Ever since the Fahrenheit incident I have watched as Microsoft has tried there hardest to put OpenGL to death. It hasn't worked and I honestly do not think they can and or will succeed with Vista either. But there is the chance that they may pull it off. Will this mean the end to OpenGL, NO, OpenGL as has been said is multi platform and is the base 3D rendering technology for many operating systems. Its just that Microsoft wants it to go away. The only way that can happen is if all the software venders jump ship and choose to port to Direct X from OpenGL. But then they will at the mercy of a proprietary technology owned part and parcel by Microsoft.
In the end this will probably all mean nothing. As soon as I have my first install setup and I can load up Celestia I will let you all know what I think and if in fact the older drivers will work under the OS.
Don.
In the end this will probably all mean nothing. As soon as I have my first install setup and I can load up Celestia I will let you all know what I think and if in fact the older drivers will work under the OS.
Don.
I am officially a retired member.
I might answer a PM or a post if its relevant to something.
Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it
Thanks for your understanding.
I might answer a PM or a post if its relevant to something.
Ah, never say never!!
Past texture releases, Hmm let me think about it
Thanks for your understanding.
bdm wrote: They did the same thing with the browser market and killed off Netscape as a viable competitor.
Ahh but they THINK they did....Netscape in itself is history but now its Mozilla! And several million users strong and growing every day....
Don,
I would consider looking into linux pretty seriously....CentOS which was formerly RedHat is your best bet....It has an emulator that can run most Windows software...I have only just begun down this path but the more I learn anout linux the less I use windows....
I'm trying to teach the cavemen how to play scrabble, its uphill work. The only word they know is Uhh and they dont know how to spell it!
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julesstoop
- Posts: 408
- Joined: 27.03.2002
- With us: 22 years 5 months
- Location: Leiden, The Netherlands
OS X is a viable alternative for Windows users as well as Linux users.
From next year on X86!
Which means the possibilty of a triple-boot system.
From next year on X86!
Which means the possibilty of a triple-boot system.
Lapinism matters!
http://settuno.com/
http://settuno.com/
I just googled this....
http://www.geekstogo.com/forum/New_feat ... 47474.html
Hmmm...Now I think all your 'free stuff' will truly be all on linux soon....
Oh and I guess Microdhaft is really putting the iron shackles on game companies since I read this snippit....
Thats using WGF...Windows ripoff OpenGL interface....
I still think this is going to put a big hurt on the game industry....But on the other hand were liable to see a boost in indie games with imagination and creativity to boot....
http://www.geekstogo.com/forum/New_feat ... 47474.html
Hmmm...Now I think all your 'free stuff' will truly be all on linux soon....
Oh and I guess Microdhaft is really putting the iron shackles on game companies since I read this snippit....
Epic has announced that their Unreal 3 Engine will support future pixel and vertex shader versions that are going to be implemented when the Unreal 3 Engine is near completion.
Thats using WGF...Windows ripoff OpenGL interface....
I still think this is going to put a big hurt on the game industry....But on the other hand were liable to see a boost in indie games with imagination and creativity to boot....
I'm trying to teach the cavemen how to play scrabble, its uphill work. The only word they know is Uhh and they dont know how to spell it!
Gone are the days when people actually had choices for PC desktops, rather than just Windows-- Remember GeoWorks and Desqview, or even Tandy's Deskmate?
I do.
These were real off-the-shelf alternatives you could buy, in which you could still run all your favourite DOS progs without emulation.
Windows eliminated them.
You can still get alternative desktops for both DOS and Windows, but the DOS ones are strictly legacy these days, and the alternate Windows shells are not commercially distributed. There's about 30-60 of these shells, but most of them have very little usage, do to lack of exposure (and Micro$haft doesn't want you to use anyone else's shell but their's).
That said, there's over 500 distributions of Linux based on 5 or 6 (as far as I know) desktop environments- Namely KDE and Gnome.
There are another 150 or so non-Linux/Unix alternate OSes for the PC, few of which are even publicly known.
Why? Because most don't know they don't HAVE to have Windows, nor do they need to rely on any Microsoft product to operate competitively, including using Open Source MS-Office-compatible suites, email and web applications.
And any OS that has a C++ compiler (almost all do- It's pretty standard) and can access graphics, will support the porting of Celestia.
(The WORST OS I have ever used, for what it's worth- VAX/VMS.
)
d.m.f.
I do.
These were real off-the-shelf alternatives you could buy, in which you could still run all your favourite DOS progs without emulation.
Windows eliminated them.
You can still get alternative desktops for both DOS and Windows, but the DOS ones are strictly legacy these days, and the alternate Windows shells are not commercially distributed. There's about 30-60 of these shells, but most of them have very little usage, do to lack of exposure (and Micro$haft doesn't want you to use anyone else's shell but their's).
That said, there's over 500 distributions of Linux based on 5 or 6 (as far as I know) desktop environments- Namely KDE and Gnome.
There are another 150 or so non-Linux/Unix alternate OSes for the PC, few of which are even publicly known.
Why? Because most don't know they don't HAVE to have Windows, nor do they need to rely on any Microsoft product to operate competitively, including using Open Source MS-Office-compatible suites, email and web applications.
And any OS that has a C++ compiler (almost all do- It's pretty standard) and can access graphics, will support the porting of Celestia.
(The WORST OS I have ever used, for what it's worth- VAX/VMS.
)
d.m.f.
There IS such a thing as a stupid question, but it's not the question first asked. It's the question repeated when the answer has already been given. -d.m.f.
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Spaceman Spiff
- Posts: 420
- Joined: 21.02.2002
- With us: 22 years 6 months
- Location: Darmstadt, Germany.
Celestia is licensed under the terms of the GNU GPL (General Public Licence). This licence was written by Richard M Stallman ( http://www.stallman.org ), and is copyrighted by the Free Software Foundation ( http://www.fsf.org/ ). This is a charity that was founded by Stallman and provides GNU software ( http://www.gnu.org ), which Celestia uses to make builds for several platforms.
On the matter of the apparent lock-in strategy noted in this topic and its possble threats to Celestia development via OpenGL stagnation, I'd like to raise the issue of Free* Software. When I started with Celestia I'd heard of Linux and the Open Source Movement. Since then I have used Linux, but then heard of something else called GNU/Linux and the Free Software Foundation. Recently, I caught some links pointing out the distinctions, and found my way to the GNU site and Richard M Stallman's essays. I've now read these and I have to say it's a revelation. I discovered that Linux and the OSM have eclipsed GNU and the FSF in terms of publicity. Yet, the latter is the more important and more powerful in letting us keep control of Celestia: as I point out, the GPL under which Celestia is licensed was written by Richard Stallman.
I'd like to appeal to Celestians to think about what's going on regarding e.g., the retraction from US citizens of the freedoms declared in the US Constitution** by the modern business world purely for maximising profit, why that can threaten our ability to use and enhance Celestia, and how we can avoid Celestia being trapped.
For a start, please read the RMS' essays ( published sebsequently in the book "Free Software, Free Society", http://www.gnu.org/doc/TOC-FSFS.html ). These are several essays written over the years and repeat certain ideas, so you don't need to read it all, but try reading this one first, if any ( http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html ).
Learn the difference between 'Linux' and 'GNU/Linux'. Find out why Open Source is a necessary but insufficient need that we have to be able to enjoy Celestia. And let the smarter of us consider learning to program, search for C++ and OpenGL tutorials, set up free OSs on our PCs, and find out how to develop OpenGL ourselves.
Spiff.
* Free as in 'rights', not free as in 'cost'.
** Stallman is a US citizen and bases his argument from the (original) US Constitution, but the issues are applicable to anywhere.
On the matter of the apparent lock-in strategy noted in this topic and its possble threats to Celestia development via OpenGL stagnation, I'd like to raise the issue of Free* Software. When I started with Celestia I'd heard of Linux and the Open Source Movement. Since then I have used Linux, but then heard of something else called GNU/Linux and the Free Software Foundation. Recently, I caught some links pointing out the distinctions, and found my way to the GNU site and Richard M Stallman's essays. I've now read these and I have to say it's a revelation. I discovered that Linux and the OSM have eclipsed GNU and the FSF in terms of publicity. Yet, the latter is the more important and more powerful in letting us keep control of Celestia: as I point out, the GPL under which Celestia is licensed was written by Richard Stallman.
I'd like to appeal to Celestians to think about what's going on regarding e.g., the retraction from US citizens of the freedoms declared in the US Constitution** by the modern business world purely for maximising profit, why that can threaten our ability to use and enhance Celestia, and how we can avoid Celestia being trapped.
For a start, please read the RMS' essays ( published sebsequently in the book "Free Software, Free Society", http://www.gnu.org/doc/TOC-FSFS.html ). These are several essays written over the years and repeat certain ideas, so you don't need to read it all, but try reading this one first, if any ( http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html ).
Learn the difference between 'Linux' and 'GNU/Linux'. Find out why Open Source is a necessary but insufficient need that we have to be able to enjoy Celestia. And let the smarter of us consider learning to program, search for C++ and OpenGL tutorials, set up free OSs on our PCs, and find out how to develop OpenGL ourselves.
Spiff.
* Free as in 'rights', not free as in 'cost'.
** Stallman is a US citizen and bases his argument from the (original) US Constitution, but the issues are applicable to anywhere.
There are actually several different open-source and free-software licenses in use, such as Creative Commons, a number of them address some of the limitations of GNU's GPL, which did start the ball rolling over 15 years ago.
There are always alternatives.
d.m.f.
There are always alternatives.
d.m.f.
There IS such a thing as a stupid question, but it's not the question first asked. It's the question repeated when the answer has already been given. -d.m.f.