Celestia Forums

Hi all,

several days ago, I downloaded quite a number (~10) of Galaxy/Nebula add-ons from the Motherlode, mainly in order to debug a recent commit Chris has made to CVS.

While the quality of the photos used was generally very nice, I found that the technical level of /most/ add-ons was really bad:

1) Why do Windows add-on authors constantly ignore that Celestia is a multi-platform application!?

For Linux users practically /all/ add-ons that I examined needed tedious hand-reworking in order to function!
Is it really OK that Linux users are naturally supposed to know all conventions of Windows, while the Windows add-on authors "brilliantly afford" to ignore even the most basic facts about Linux/UNIX systems?

The needed modifications are most trivial, indeed. But nobody seems to care!

i) Please DO NOT use file names, consisting of several words separated by blanks!

ii) Please check carefully that due to (DOS influence?) small and capital letters are NOT accidentally mixed up in file names. Any UNIX/LINUX system is strictly case sensitive. Also with its file names!!!

If you defined in the dsc file, e.g. a Model "test.3ds", it will NOT be found in Linux, if your model file name reads, e.g.

test.3DS

or
TEST.3ds

or...

Is it really so hard for add-on authors to keep such simple rules in mind??

Similarly the syntax of the texture file name entered in the *.3ds model file MUST precisely match the actual file name of the texture with respect to small & capital letters.

iii) I found several galaxy add-ons, where the alpha-channel was perfectly prepared. The image was beautifully transparent were it had to be.

However, many authors do NOT seem to know how to make such a transparency mask properly. That's why -- in a number of cases -- one could see the image background floating against the black sky. Looks HORRIBLE.

After I decomposed the alpha channel and restored perfect sky transparency (<==> blackness!), everything was fine, of course....

*******************
Well, I happen to know all these things and, correspondingly, can avoid getting stuck here. Still, it costs quite some unnecessary time to fix everything.

Less experienced Linux useres will be VERY desperate and highly frustrated instead
*******************

Think about it, PLEASE...

Bye Fridger

t00fri wrote:While the quality of the photos used was generally very nice, I found that the technical level of /most/ add-ons was really bad

Totally agree with Fridger, we need to find a better way to represent the nebulas?€¦ I hope Chris and others developers are thinking on this?€¦

Meanwhile us poor user with some graphics abilities, we should try to find an alternative solution but another time, nebulas are quite complex objects, and without some scientific directives it will be difficult to get good results?€¦

ElChristou wrote:

t00fri wrote:While the quality of the photos used was generally very nice, I found that the technical level of /most/ add-ons was really bad

Totally agree with Fridger, we need to find a better way to represent the nebulas?€¦ I hope Chris and others developers are thinking on this?€¦

Meanwhile us poor user with some graphics abilities, we should try to find an alternative solution but another time, nebulas are quite complex objects, and without some scientific directives it will be difficult to get good results?€¦

ElChristou,

while I agree with what you emphasized more generally, please note, that the purpose of my post above was much more specific:

It would only require to observe a few simple rules to have also LINUX users benefit from the add-ons on ML...

Bye Fridger

You have to remember also that its not entirely the addon creaters fault but in most cases windows...since most users of windows do not know to disable file ext hiding etc....and the fact windows hides file extentions to lowercase may or may not be noticed....so in most cases we can blame lazy microsoft programmers/application programmers not lazy addon creaters....NOTE: in some cases....

A perfect example is a big name company like descreet who manufactures 3d studio max will append a capitalised extention to all files it exports....You have to write in the extention at save otherwise it appends a .3DS or .DXF etc....

Photoshop used to do this but fortunately they fixed this...ACDsee older versions also did this...May still...

Capitalised filenames are the result of using WIndows XP inhouse burning software...roxio also does this...Nero however does not....

Just thought I would shed some light on this not only for you Fridger but for the addon creaters....renaming the file even though it appears all lowercase will force the file to be truly lowercase....DOS will show the filename as it really is so if your not sure...Use DOS...

Rassilon wrote:You have to remember also that its not entirely the addon creaters fault but in most cases windows...since most users of windows do not know to disable file ext hiding etc....and the fact windows reverts files to lowercase extentions this may or may not be noticed....so in most cases we can blame lazy microsoft programmers not lazy addon creaters....NOTE: in some cases....

Rassilon,

but certainly, under Windows (DOS) the resulting filenames may be checked. Also by examining the *.3ds model file, the precise file-name syntax entered there may be checked against the actual texture file name. It's more a matter of opening one's mind and accepting the existence of another OS . ...and LEARNING a little bit .

I have NOTHING against capitalized filenames, of course. But then one has to declare those /appropriately/ in the corresponding *.dsc file.

Bye Fridger

It actually can slip by one when all they see is lowercase...To them the file looks like it should....

test.3ds as it appears in Windows is at the very least a deception of the OS...

Rassilon wrote:It actually can slip by one when all they see is lowercase...To them the file looks like it should....

test.3ds as it appears in Windows is at the very least a deception of the OS...

Don't forget, I know what I am talking about: I also own an XP Laptop . I certainly can make sure what the file name is going to look like under Linux.


Bye Fridger

I generally agree with t00fri's post, but:

t00fri wrote:i) Please DO NOT use file names, consisting of several words separated by blanks!

Why not? I don't think I ever had any problems because of this...

And I'd like to point out that this is not a problem specific to the Motherlode ("Motherlo/a/de" ), but simply with Celestia Addons.

Harald

Harry wrote:I generally agree with t00fri's post, but:

t00fri wrote:i) Please DO NOT use file names, consisting of several words separated by blanks!

Why not? I don't think I ever had any problems because of this...

And I'd like to point out that this is not a problem specific to the Motherlode ("Motherlo/a/de" ), but simply with Celestia Addons.

Harald

Harald,

I did not say that multi-word filenames separated by blanks will NOT work in mere add-on operation, but they generally make life MISERABLE under Linux. None of the usual shell functions (ls, cd, mv, rm, ...) will recognize them, if unquoted! Infinitely many respectable filenames can be devised that peacefully coexist in Windows and Linux.


*******************
LINUX users DO NOT DESERVE to live with this mess in a multi-platform environment...
*******************

As the name "Motherlode" is to indicate, all add-ons of this globe belong there . (Except mine, of course ). In that sense the described problems relate to ML...


Bye Fridger

Rassilon wrote:You have to remember also that its not entirely the addon creaters fault but in most cases windows...since most users of windows do not know to disable file ext hiding etc....and the fact windows hides file extentions to lowercase may or may not be noticed...

Even though you may be right, i don??t understand why anyone would not proof their work before publicizing it. To me it seems slightly crazy - and pointless - to put in hours or days or weeks at something, and then put out a sloppy release... Establishing and conforming to a filename convention isn??t particularily taxing... Expecially since consistency is the *only* important thing here.

Harry wrote:I'd like to point out that this is not a problem specific to the Motherlode ("Motherlo/a/de" ), but simply with Celestia Addons.

In the early days of the Motherlode, we worked on an AddOn Spesification - a template that creators would be encouraged to use by awarding an "approved" symbol in the listings for the addons that were technically sound. The effort derailed because the template instuctions grew too detailed as we tried to anticipate for an Addon Manager. (As i recall, it halted when Selden??s and Don G??s contributions ended up being a little incomparable).

Maybe it is time to take a fresh look at that project? Much of the work is already done, after all... It has just been collecting dust for almost a year.

-rthorvald

t00fri wrote:while I agree with what you emphasized more generally, please note, that the purpose of my post above was much more specific:

It would only require to observe a few simple rules to have also LINUX users benefit from the add-ons on ML...

I understand this perfectly, don't worry, but I think the nebulas problem is very important... it's all... (tackling a bit )

Bye

Here is a typical example concerning the *.3ds *.3DS confusion created by sloppy Windows add-on authors, in case of a less experienced Linux user....

http://www.shatters.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6944

Bye Fridger

Even under Windows,most image backgrounds float in the sky,like a billboard(?).There are very few well built DSO addons.

t00fri wrote:Hi all,

several days ago, I downloaded quite a number (~10) of Galaxy/Nebula add-ons from the Motherlode, mainly in order to debug a recent commit Chris has made to CVS.

While the quality of the photos used was generally very nice, I found that the technical level of /most/ add-ons was really bad:

1) Why do Windows add-on authors constantly ignore that Celestia is a multi-platform application!?

For Linux users practically /all/ add-ons that I examined needed tedious hand-reworking in order to function!
Is it really OK that Linux users are naturally supposed to know all conventions of Windows, while the Windows add-on authors "brilliantly afford" to ignore even the most basic facts about Linux/UNIX systems?

The needed modifications are most trivial, indeed. But nobody seems to care!

i) Please DO NOT use file names, consisting of several words separated by blanks!

ii) Please check carefully that due to (DOS influence?) small and capital letters are NOT accidentally mixed up in file names. Any UNIX/LINUX system is strictly case sensitive. Also with its file names!!!

If you defined in the dsc file, e.g. a Model "test.3ds", it will NOT be found in Linux, if your model file name reads, e.g.

test.3DS

or
TEST.3ds

or...

Is it really so hard for add-on authors to keep such simple rules in mind??

Similarly the syntax of the texture file name entered in the *.3ds model file MUST precisely match the actual file name of the texture with respect to small & capital letters.

iii) I found several galaxy add-ons, where the alpha-channel was perfectly prepared. The image was beautifully transparent were it had to be.

However, many authors do NOT seem to know how to make such a transparency mask properly. That's why -- in a number of cases -- one could see the image background floating against the black sky. Looks HORRIBLE.

After I decomposed the alpha channel and restored perfect sky transparency (<==> blackness!), everything was fine, of course....

*******************
Well, I happen to know all these things and, correspondingly, can avoid getting stuck here. Still, it costs quite some unnecessary time to fix everything.

Less experienced Linux useres will be VERY desperate and highly frustrated instead
*******************

Think about it, PLEASE...

Bye Fridger

Im not defending lazy addons creators....just trying to make you see its not something to get all worked up over....Sometimes people CAN make mistakes....Mostly because Ive been there when I first started making addons I had complaints about filenames that I was completely unaware of until someone brought it to my attention....

If this is going to be such a big issue then the Motherload needs to screen each and every addon it recieves....

Since man is an inperfect beast there is going to be many hours burning the mignight oil on something that no-one paid for....

Im more geared to complain about Studio Max with its eyes closed to Linux than a novice addon creator...Lazy ones well they are going to be lazy no matter how much you complain....