TextureFoundry Upgrade Project CANCELLED!

[t00fri]

Hi all,

after I managed at last to upgrade my computer at home
to a 3.2 GHz P4 (Northwood) with 3.0 (!!) GB fast RAM,
you may expect some new state-of the art textures on
my good-old TextureFoundry to appear (given my
FX5900Ultra/256MB card that I have since some time).

Notably, as of tomorrow or so, I will also have a very
fast 3000 Mbit ADSL line with flat rate service at home
(serving a 1 Gbit fast switched Intranet). So my
canonical problems of uploading to/upgrading the
TexFoundry will be definitely over...

Actually,...I will not particularly favour the distribution of
my new textures to Motherlode.
Sorry for that, but I just want to stay a "small personal
shop" rather than becoming part of a Supermarket...

Since the TexFoundry ranges around 142500
visits/downloads meanwhile, I think I can also survive as
an "Individual" which I have always been


To raise your appetite, here is a shot from a 16k Mars
texture essentially based on a great texture from Mario/Space-Graphics. The real thing will be 32k
tiles...after I have completed the full 32k Mola normal
maps with special low noise emphasis...


Bye Fridger

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

Actually,...I will not particularly favour the distribution of my new textures to Motherlode.
Sorry for that, but I just want to stay a "small personal shop" rather than becoming part of a Supermarket...

Wrong analogy. The Motherlode is more like a Shopping Mall, not a supermarket - there are plenty of "individual shops" in there, all in one place to make it convenient for people to use. That's the whole point of it, after all.

Of course, if you don't believe in making things convenient for people who would otherwise like to use your textures, that's entirely up to you

[t00fri]

Actually,...I will not particularly favour the distribution of my new textures to Motherlode.
Sorry for that, but I just want to stay a "small personal shop" rather than becoming part of a Supermarket...

Wrong analogy. The Motherlode is more like a Shopping Mall, not a supermarket - there are plenty of "individual shops" in there, all in one place to make it convenient for people to use. That's the whole point of it, after all.

Of course, if you don't believe in making things convenient for people who would otherwise like to use your textures, that's entirely up to you

What matters is that lots of people are uploading their
stuff to Motherlode without even knowing remotely what
the basics of image manipulation are, let alone how to
handle layers, their many ways to overlay and all that.

For many potential downloaders it therefore becomes increasingly hard
to sort out quality textures there among lots of ...

That's the root of my analogy to a Supermarket.

I just want to follow the opposite strategy: Things are
supposed to become /effectively/ simple on my site,
since all textures that I will offer, will be prepared with
utmost care and a substantial know-how. Thats all.


People who find it too hard to get textures from my site,
would also hardly be able to judge what extra amount of
work went into them to fight noise etc. Without
exaggeration, I think I know pretty well to play with
image manipulation techniques "at the border line". So,
let's see...


Experience has shown that people tend to find my
site

Bye Fridger

[bh]

Fridger...great news indeed...I've been looking forward to this one I can tell you!

I've been using and enjoying the SpaceGraphics Mars 16k texture (thanks to you and Mario!) for some weeks now and it's fanastic.

Regards...bh.

[t00fri]

Fridger...great news indeed...I've been looking forward to this one I can tell you!

I've been using and enjoying the SpaceGraphics Mars 16k texture (thanks to you and Mario!) for some weeks now and it's fanastic.

Regards...bh.

bh,

many thanks for your encouragement. Mario is indeed a
great "source of inspiration" in image manipulation and a
great fellow to work with.


Half an hour ago, he sent me his most recent
"experiment" with Gaspra. It's not in cmod, but I just
find it breathtaking


I am sure he will agree that I post it here:


Bye Fridger

[Dollan]

That isn't really the point. In my humble opinion, there is nothing wrong with someone sharing his work, regardless of the quality. The point is simply sharing your creations with others.

Besides, Fridge, I really think that your stuff stands out *quite* easily! That Mars image is indeed quite beautiful!

...John...

[alphap1us]

Actually,...I will not particularly favour the distribution of
my new textures to Motherlode.
Sorry for that, but I just want to stay a "small personal
shop" rather than becoming part of a Supermarket...

Since the TexFoundry ranges around 142500
visits/downloads meanwhile, I think I can also survive as
an "Individual" which I have always been

(....)

What matters is that lots of people are uploading their
stuff to Motherlode without even knowing remotely what
the basics of image manipulation are, let alone how to
handle layers, their many ways to overlay and all that.

For many potential downloaders it therefore becomes increasingly hard
to sort out quality textures there among lots of ...

That's the root of my analogy to a Supermarket.

I just want to follow the opposite strategy: Things are
supposed to become /effectively/ simple on my site,
since all textures that I will offer, will be prepared with
utmost care and a substantial know-how. Thats all.

Hello Fridger,
I have no problem with you continuing keeping your files on the TexFoundry. They are yours after all, but I think you should consider a few things.

1) The foundry is hosted on shatters.net, which has enough problems with bandwidth just serving the homepage and the forums. Any additional load will cause slow-downs and make it less pleasent for users, including you. I think you should at least consider hosting the textures on the Motherlode and linking to them from the Foundry. All the files are stored in a completely transparent area under http://celestiamotherlode.net/creators/ so they will never disappear or get moved.

2) I am not sure you are aware of the scale of the visits to Celestia sites. You say that your site has recevied 143K hits since July 2002. On average, the Motherlode handles >1400 session everyday. This means that at the current rate, the Motherlode will handle 2 years or Foundry traffic in 3months. I am not bragging about popularity. I am just trying to impress on you the number of visitors who have never heard of the original "Motherlode" and are unlikekly to ever find it.

3) I don't understand how the perceived inadequacies of other contributors make it less pleasant for the user. You are right when you say that few have the same skills as you do when it comes to realistic texture creation, and mmost poeple on the fourm recognize this. When I am considering a new texture, I choose yours prefrentially, but I do this without effort from the Motherlode, since your name appears right next to every texture that we list. Any user that knows enough to prefer your textures will know enough to read the name beside the ones that he or she downloads.

I look forward to your response.

Cheers,
Joe

[Evil Dr Ganymede]

What matters is that lots of people are uploading their
stuff to Motherlode without even knowing remotely what
the basics of image manipulation are, let alone how to
handle layers, their many ways to overlay and all that.

For many potential downloaders it therefore becomes increasingly hard
to sort out quality textures there among lots of ...

I just want to follow the opposite strategy: Things are
supposed to become /effectively/ simple on my site,
since all textures that I will offer, will be prepared with
utmost care and a substantial know-how. Thats all.

In other words, you think your textures are too good to be housed on the same site as all the other riff-raff?!

And what's more, you think people are too stupid to differentiate good textures from bad?

Wow. You really need to ratchet down that ego of yours, Fridger.

[t00fri]

What matters is that lots of people are uploading their
stuff to Motherlode without even knowing remotely what
the basics of image manipulation are, let alone how to
handle layers, their many ways to overlay and all that.

For many potential downloaders it therefore becomes increasingly hard
to sort out quality textures there among lots of ...

I just want to follow the opposite strategy: Things are
supposed to become /effectively/ simple on my site,
since all textures that I will offer, will be prepared with
utmost care and a substantial know-how. Thats all.

In other words, you think your textures are too good to be housed on the same site as all the other riff-raff?!

And what's more, you think people are too stupid to differentiate good textures from bad?

Wow. You really need to ratchet down that ego of yours, Fridger.

Evil Dr. Ganymede,

I am really getting tired of you continuously "following" every
post of mine and trying to argue with me and/or to twist my wordings!
Why don't you invest your time into a more creative activity, just for a
change?

It was you who provoked that whole discussion above, that I did NOT
intend to get into in the first place.


I have given a polite and not too detailed reason why I prefer to
leave my textures on the TextureFoundry. I think this is my good
right, and I personally do not care a dime what YOU think about it.

Actually,...I will not particularly favour the distribution of
my new textures to Motherlode.
Sorry for that, but I just want to stay a "small personal
shop" rather than becoming part of a Supermarket...

[Incidentally, the TexFoundry was the first site where Celestia
textures were made available, already early in 2002.]

In other words, you think your textures are too good to be housed on
the same site as all the other riff-raff?!

That provocative reply of yours is of course completely besides the
point I was trying to explain carefully. Again a "brilliant" example of
your meanwhile familiar attempts of twisting the contents of my posts.


Bye Fridger

[t00fri]

Hello Joe,

thanks for raising your points 1) - 3) that I'll try to answer carefully.

1) The foundry is hosted on shatters.net, which has enough problems
with bandwidth just serving the homepage and the forums. Any
additional load will cause slow-downs and make it less pleasent for
users, including you. I think you should at least consider hosting the
textures on the Motherlode and linking to them from the Foundry. All
the files are stored in a completely transparent area under
http://celestiamotherlode.net/creators/ so they will never disappear
or get moved.

That is indeed a valid point to think about. It is notably also
depending on Chris, who is kindly providing the resources for my site
so far.

2) I am not sure you are aware of the scale of the visits to Celestia
sites. You say that your site has recevied 143K hits since July 2002.
On average, the Motherlode handles >1400 session everyday. This
means that at the current rate, the Motherlode will handle 2 years or
Foundry traffic in 3months. I am not bragging about popularity. I am
just trying to impress on you the number of visitors who have never
heard of the original "Motherlode" and are unlikekly to ever find it.

Well, I am not surprised that motherlode is scoring >1000 visits/day.
That's an excellent signature for your site being a great place to visit
for many. Incidentally the TextureFoundry was at a 1000/day hitrate
almost continuously during the first year of its existence. For reasons
that I have explained several times (also to you in a PM) I was unable
up to now to upgrade/refill my site even a single time since the
start of its existence 2.5 years ago! So clearly, the rates of 143K are
now the average also over 1.5 years of relatively "low-frequency"
operation. Also Celestia has meanwhile become vastly more
popular...

As I explained, I am not intending to compete with motherlode
whatsoever.


I have used the TexFoundry's 143K hits merely as a possible indication that I might
be able to "survive" by myself ...As I emphasized, I want to entertain
a "small, personalized shop where just a few goodies may be
found" . That's it. If no-one wants to visit anymore, I can always close
down .

3) I don't understand how the perceived inadequacies of other
contributors make it less pleasant for the user. You are right when
you say that few have the same skills as you do when it comes to
realistic texture creation, and mmost poeple on the fourm recognize
this. When I am considering a new texture, I choose yours
prefrentially, but I do this without effort from the Motherlode, since
your name appears right next to every texture that we list. Any user
that knows enough to prefer your textures will know enough to read
the name beside the ones that he or she downloads.

Of course you are right as long as we talk about the relatively
"compact" community of people that know my name through this
Forum, for example. But meanwhile, this is a small percentage of the
Celestia users or visitors of motherlode worldwide. And the offered
variety of things at motherlode is overwhelmingly large!

From the onset, the TextureFoundry was meant as a small place
where I could share my work with people who might have an
active interest in what they are downloading, what
advanced image manipulation could do with Celestia's latest graphics
features etc.

So an important accompanying issue with my forthcoming textures will
also be a detailed description of what methods have been used, what
the special emphasis was and so on. So others could go on
experimenting and make further progress.

My idea is to have a site much closer in style to
Mario's/Space-graphics, where every texture that is offered may well
have taken many weeks to develop by an expert! Of course, unlike
Mario, I will not be involved with commercial aspects. Yet, I enjoy
tremendously to collaborate or do texture experiments together with
Mario...The TextureFoundry is meant as an appropriate place to
expose what e.g. came out of these joint efforts.

Bye Fridger

[alphap1us]

Hello Fridger,

You seem to concede my first point, which reallly the most important. All I want is your permission to host the files on the server and list them in the catalog. I would suggest that you link to the these files from the Foundry, but that is up to you and Chris.

Practical considerations aside, I am curious about you intentions.

From the onset, the TextureFoundry was meant as a small place
where I could share my work with people who might have an
active interest in what they are downloading, what
advanced image manipulation could do with Celestia's latest graphics
features etc.

If I understand you correctly, you are separating the users into two classes, those who have an "active interest in what they are downloading" and those who do not. It appears that you want to at least discourage those who just want the best-looking texture from being able to use yours.

So an important accompanying issue with my forthcoming textures will
also be a detailed description of what methods have been used, what
the special emphasis was and so on. So others could go on
experimenting and make further progress.

Ahh, so your criticism of the motherlode is that we offer minmial information about the files available? This is certianly fair. I had always hoped to add more information about the add-ons but it turned out to be enough of a chore just getting the title, creator, etc. I should note that due almost exclusively to Harald's efforts, we will implement functionality to allow creators to describe their add-ons in full.

Cheers,
Joe

[t00fri]

Hello Joe,

Hello Fridger,

You seem to concede my first point, which reallly the most important.
All I want is your permission to host the files on the server and list
them in the catalog. I would suggest that you link to the these files
from the Foundry, but that is up to you and Chris.

I have no idea yet what that would mean in practice, since I must
confess that I have visited the Motherlode site not more than 2-3
times, perhaps. I prefer, however, to have the TextureFoundry not
as "subsection" of Motherlode. Also downloading
should not be possible via some general index within Motherlode.
If there is a link to the TextureFoundry site somewhere in Motherlode that would be certainly fine.

...
It appears that you want to at least discourage those who just want
the best-looking texture from being able to use yours.

Did my post really imply this? This would be horrible and certainly not
my intention!


Everybody who wants for whatever reasons to download my textures
is welcome to do so from my site. Experience has shown that
interested people tend to find it...Despite the existence of
Motherlode . After all, the TextureFoundry was the first Celestia
texture site in existence. So why should it have a discouraging
effect, if people continue to download my textures from the
"good-old" TextureFoundry rather than from Motherlode??

Take my old and "extra-fluffy" 2k earth-cloud texture, that is to be
found there since 2.5 years! I am told that many still use it and prefer
it to newer and bigger cloud textures. So do I for good
reasons...

So an important accompanying issue with my forthcoming textures will
also be a detailed description of what methods have been used, what
the special emphasis was and so on. So others could go on
experimenting and make further progress.

Ahh, so your criticism of the motherlode is that we offer minmial
information about the files available? This is certianly fair. I had always
hoped to add more information about the add-ons but it turned out to
be enough of a chore just getting the title, creator, etc. I should note
that due almost exclusively to Harald's efforts, we will implement
functionality to allow creators to describe their add-ons in full.

I have virtually NO criticism of the Motherlode. It's a great and most
useful site! I just want the TextureFoundry to specialize on
complementary aspects:


1) I want it to deliberately remain small and "transparent".

2) As I understand, the Motherlode applies very little selection of
the uploaded material as to quality and content. In contrast, the
texture material on the TextureFoundry will be highly selected
(representing the best of what I can offer). Both criteria have clearly
advantages and disadvantages.

3) There will definitely be no fantasy world textures lacking any
physical basis, no fighter spaceships and the like. Also my hyperdense
"X-Rat system" from the Purgatory will for sure not be found
there .


4) There will be ample space for reports of associated image
manipulation issues, for sure.

Many people, will not be interested in such details. They might be
predominantly out for the "best-looking" and largest possible
textures, no matter who did them and how they were
achieved. Although people with these preferences are equally
welcome to download, they would not represent the central target
group of TextureFoundry users.

5) My latest upgrades of scripts and programs I coded will be found
there as well, like

-- Virtualtex for VT tile production
-- texconvert for lightening fast texture conversion into
DXT1,3,5 format and a host of others for Linux as well as a recent
(binary) port to native Windows! I finished the latter some time
ago, but did not yet publish it anywhere.
-- Upgrades of my various location files, notably the biggest
one (45000+ earth locations) that will never make it into the
distribution for reasons of space.

-- Furture upgrades of my forthcoming stc files for
200+ binary star systems that will incorporate state of the art
accuracy.

I hope that I managed to express these important aspects reasonably
clearly...

Bye Fridger

[rthorvald]

...
It appears that you want to at least discourage those who just want
the best-looking texture from being able to use yours.

Did my post really imply this? This would be horrible and certainly not
my intention!

Well, no it doesn?t. I absolutely symphatize with you wanting to keep control of how your own work is represented. But *why* is perhaps a difficult concept to convey... As some postings here reveal. There has been a comparison to shopping malls and supermarkets: not everyone likes supermarkets... That?s why we have small shops outside them, and thank god for that - the world would be incredibly boring without.

What the Motherlode wants, is to get it?s greedy hands on your work anyway

Might i suggest that you use the ibiblio server for hosting the actual files, but without the Motherlode listing it? Then you just link to the files from your own site.

I can set this up for you if you want. It?s just a matter of re-directing anyone who tries to access your ibiblio directory to your own website.

No files would ever be visible on the Motherlode, not in the listings, and not in the internal directories. The only effect would be that Shatters.net would be relieved of the bandwidth and disk space toll, and Joe still gets to watch over your work for posterity, while you retain complete control over how they are presented and distributed.

All this said, let me add one thing: i think this entire discussion is a little tasteless. Here someone offers to share his creations with the community, and up pops voices bitching about the artist?s relationship with his own work. Really, people, the only proper response to such an offer is thank you.


Respectfully,
- rthorvald

[HankR]

Speaking only for myself, of course, I'm just happy to hear that Fridger is now finally able to more easily share the results of his painstaking efforts with other Celestia enthusiasts. His desire to have some control over its presentation to users seems to have been taken as a criticism of the Celestia Motherlode site, which I'm sure he did not intend.

If it requires a bit more effort to visit Fridger's site rather than downloading directly from the Motherlode, I'm sure that most users will find it well worth the trouble. And if in the process they happen to learn a little astronomy, image processing, etc. then that's all for the better.

As long as there's a link to Fridger's site from the Motherlode, its purpose of providing a centralized directory of contributed Celestia resources will be satisfied.

But because I expect the resources at Fridger's site to be very popular, I'm a bit concerned that if it is hosted at shatter.net the download traffic might adversely impact the forums. That would be unfortunate. If it were possible for the Motherlode to host the actual downloads for Fridger's files (when requested via links from Fridger's site), that might help.

In general I think it would be useful if the Motherlode could include more descriptive information about the resources it provides, so that users could make a more informed choice about what to download. Also, it would be useful if it provided access to resources organized by contributor, where the contributors could include explanations of their objectives, techniques, etc. Perhaps futher development of the Motherlode along these lines will allow it to eventually satisfy Fridger's intentions for how his work should be presented.

- Hank

[Don. Edwards]

Hey Fridger,
Great work on the new textures. I personally look forward to giving them a spin. From what I see they look great.
I too am looking at a massive texture release and have many of the same concerns you do about wanting to remain in control of your work.
I was also offered space on the "Motherload" for storing my work so that the downloads wouldn't tax the Shatters.net servers. I was planning to keep the actual front end of my Hub sites at shatters.net and simply store the files at Motherload. But I have to say I not 100% convinced that this would be the right move. I would simply like to keep all my new work separate from previous works to cut down on confusion. Lets face it that since I have made so many versions of Earth textures over the years that I am sure that there is some confusion as to what is the newest versus the oldest. I too like the idea of a fast and large storage area but the idea of being one of many store fronts instead of a separate boutique store front makes a big difference to me. Now if it can be set up that I can have a storage area on the ibiblio server that is mine and I have access to upload to it and remove files at will this would work for me. But if I have to rely on someone else to do this than I would just as soon use the old method on shatters.net.

Don. Edwards

[t00fri]

Hello rthorvald, Hank & Don,

many thanks for expressing certain "things" in a much better way than I was apparently able to!

I really appreciate it...

rthorvald & Don,

you are certainly among the people knowing so much about what can be done with textures...so I would be more than pleased if we could enter an intensified phase of mutual exchange of know-how in the near-future...

It is my deep conviction that people who "happen to
know" (for whatever reasons) should try joining their
efforts for the benefit of all...

I am convinced that Mario/Space-Graphics will also be happy to join in!

I know that you both are defending similar ideas as I do, notably also concerning individual style platforms for an exchange of progress in texture making.

For example, it would simply be a pity to absorb Don's very well designed sites, into a Monsterlode, sorry Motherlode structure...

Bye Fridger

[bh]

I agree also...the Motherload is a great resource and it's great that we can still do our 'thing' whatever that is...sorry...damn ESB again...but yes...

Regards...bh.

[Bob Hegwood]

Just two cents worth from the Brain-Dead...

First, I'd just like to say Thank You to Fridger and Don for the
absolutely beautiful (and accurate) textures.

As a Celestia fanatic - albeit one less gifted than yourselves - I very much
appreciate your efforts here. I also think that you gentlemen have every
right to post your work wherever and whenever you please without cat-calls
from the Peanut Gallery.

Finally, thanks very much to rthorvald a nice, un-biased opinion.

Can't we all just get along? I mean, we DO each have a love for the
environment presented by our favorite program...

Take care, Brain-Dead

[Ptarmigan]

for two more pennyworth :-

I don't doubt that any of us mind what Herr Dr Fridger does with his offerings.
If he wishes to host them with shatters.net then that is up to him and Chris, Chris will no doubt get lots of feedback if his pipe suddenly grinds to a halt ! Chris is quite capable of viewing his logs (as he has done in the past)

A simple announcement by Fridger of an update to his (great) works is good news. and -->- there it could have rested with a good feeling all round ! --<-

But why, oh why, in his third paragraph of his first (announcing) message does Fridger take a(n unprovoked? **) swing at the Motherlode, was that _really_ necessary ?
and in view of that expression, that the Motherlode is akin to a supermarket, why is he 'surprised' that he is called to book for it ?

**Did the Motherlode folk have prior knowledge of his upgrade and did they solicit him to to place his offerings with them ?
I dont understand where and how the Motherlode came to be involved in this, except by some prejudice in Fridgers overinflated mind ?

[Cham]

PLEEEEASE! Just stop that useless nonsense !