Page 1 of 2

Speed affecting time

Posted: 23.03.2004, 14:07
by StarCrazy
This is a bit of a long-shot of an idea. It's a useless feature in a way, but educational and may enhance realism in the simulation. Apparently time slows the faster you move until it stops at the speed of light. It would be quiet a unique concept to be implemented into the sim....I'm no Einstien and I'm not sure if you need him to create this in a sim....is it possible or is it just way too complicated?...

Just a Crazy thought
Chris

Posted: 23.03.2004, 14:31
by adamnieman
StarCrazy,

You might be interested in StarStrider (http://www.starstrider.com/). (Judging from your name, it's your sort of software :wink: )

It has an option to model relativistic effects. I can't tell you much about it though because my free trial ran out before I had a chance to play with it properly and I'm too poor/mean to by a licence at the moment.

The trouble is, the distances we casually traverse in Celestia are huge. The speed of light would be a terrible limitation (15 1/2 minutes to get to Mars? Give me superluminal travel any day :) )

Adam

Re: Speed affecting time

Posted: 23.03.2004, 14:49
by t00fri
StarCrazy wrote:This is a bit of a long-shot of an idea. It's a useless feature in a way, but educational and may enhance realism in the simulation. Apparently time slows the faster you move until it stops at the speed of light. It would be quiet a unique concept to be implemented into the sim....I'm no Einstien and I'm not sure if you need him to create this in a sim....is it possible or is it just way too complicated?...

Just a Crazy thought
Chris


The incorporation of special relativistic effects are since long on my todo list for Celestia. Notably the distortions of the field of view and color shifts with speed approaching that of light, are very striking phenomena...

Bye Fridger

Posted: 23.03.2004, 16:19
by StarCrazy
The incorporation of special relativistic effects are since long on my todo list for Celestia. Notably the distortions of the field of view and color shifts with speed approaching that of light, are very striking phenomena...
Cheers Fridger. Looking forward to it.

You might be interested in StarStrider

I'm afraid I'm on a Mac and don't have Virtual PC installed. Thanks, anyway. I don't feel the pinch, though...Celestia is a real gem.

Posted: 23.03.2004, 22:13
by Guest
doesnt it merely appear that like takes 15 minutes to travel from earth to mars. if one could ride a beam of light, the wouldnt one travel to infinity in 0 time?

Posted: 24.03.2004, 10:16
by adamnieman
Anonymous wrote:doesnt it merely appear that like takes 15 minutes to travel from earth to mars. if one could ride a beam of light, the wouldnt one travel to infinity in 0 time?


Good point. We could accelerate to speeds close to the speed of light and experience time dilation too. The clock on the top right of the screen could display 'Earth time' or the time on our local clock.

Posted: 24.03.2004, 13:24
by t00fri
Anonymous wrote:doesnt it merely appear that like takes 15 minutes to travel from earth to mars. if one could ride a beam of light, the wouldnt one travel to infinity in 0 time?


Why in 0 time???

The speed of light is 300000km/sec.
Correspondingly, light often takes millions of years to reach your eye after being emitted on a far away galaxy.

Since you have a /non-zero mass/ it would take an /infinite/ amount of energy to accelerate your body to the speed of the light beam on which you proposed to travel.

So in the future, you better take a car or a plane...

Bye Fridger

Posted: 25.03.2004, 07:45
by StarCrazy
t00fri Wrote:
Since you have a /non-zero mass/ it would take an /infinite/ amount of energy to accelerate your body to the speed of the light beam on which you proposed to travel.


And yet I find it so ironic that the weakest force in the universe (or one of the weakest forces, I'm not really sure), gravity, created by mass, has the ability to reverse the direction of light, as with black holes. I understand that greater mass creates greater gravitational forces, but essentially gravity is weak. Is gravity the only thing that can affect light so drastically? Always went for the underdogs, myself. Please correct me in any way...just trying to filter out myths from my mind and have a greater understanding in things.

Which leads me to another thought. Going by the minds at work here, I'm sure someone's on to it, but would like to know for sure. Feeling the effects of gravity would be real cool...slingshotting round planets and moons, needing a certain speed to escape the gravitational forces of planets, etc. Is this a possibilty?

Also...if anyone could help me with quoting other people's entries properly....I'll feel less embarrassed...

Thanks
Chris

Posted: 25.03.2004, 09:37
by selden
Chris,

To answer your last question, just click on the "quote" button at the top of the post that you want to quote. Or cut and paste and insert these commands into the text you edit:

Code: Select all

[quote] ... [/quote]


So far as gravitational effects are concerned, you should think of Celestia as being more of a display program than an interactive simulation program. In other words, everything that Celestia shows you is predetermined, except for your viewpoint. It doesn't calculate gravitational effects. Instead, the locations of orbiting objects within Celestia are specified by Keplerian orbits declared in SSC files.

However, you can define an orbit which includes the slingshot effect you mention. Then you can run Celestia and follow along with an object that's travelling along that orbit.

"Mostly Harmless" by Marc Griffith is a modified version of Celestia which is intended to include gravitational effects that work on the observer. My understanding, though, is that those effects aren't available in its current version. Marc has been working more on the database aspects of his program.

"Orbiter" is a Windows program by Martin Schweiger which simulates spacecraft and realtime orbital dynamics. It might be more what you're looking for.

Posted: 25.03.2004, 10:57
by adamnieman
t00fri wrote:Why in 0 time???

The speed of light is 300000km/sec.
Correspondingly, light often takes millions of years to reach your eye after being emitted on a far away galaxy.

It's true that, as we measure it, it takes light 13 billion years to reach us from distant quasars. But from the point of view of the photon that makes the journey, it has taken no time at all. If a photon carried a watch, it wouldn't tick. This is 'time dilation' - clocks in different reference frames tick at different rates - and it works at all speeds. (I know I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here - but I thought it would be useful to spell it out. :) )

The difference in the rate at which time passes in a moving frame (t1) compared with one at rest (t0) is given by:

Code: Select all

t1 = t0/gamma

where gamma = 1/sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)
where v is the speed of the moving frame and c is the speed of light


(By the way - by 'frame' I just mean space as measured by a particular observer. E.g. when on a train, you measure distances such as the distance to the buffet in relation to the carriage. It would be daft to use the station platform as your point of reference. A moving train carriage is a differnt 'frame' from a station platform.)

If we travel to Mars at 99% of the speed of light, then as measured by someone on Earth, we would take about 15 mins to get there (with the planets in their current positions). But from the equation above, we can work out that our own watches would show that only about 2 mins had elapsed. If we travelled at 99.9% of the speed of light then, according to our watches, only 40 secs would have passed.

t00fri wrote: Since you have a /non-zero mass/ it would take an /infinite/ amount of energy to accelerate your body to the speed of the light beam on which you proposed to travel.

So in the future, you better take a car or a plane...

Fortunately, we travel by Celestia, so our rest mass is zero. :D
It would be possible to implement a 'special relativity' mode in Celestia where-by we can increase our speed only upto the speed of light (or just below it). We could have two clocks displayed. One showing the time according to our watch and one showing the time on Earth. 8) How cool would that be?

Incidentally, special relativity will be 100 years old next year - it would be nice to celebrate the fact somehow with Celestia.

StarCrazy wrote: Is gravity the only thing that can affect light so drastically? Always went for the underdogs, myself. Please correct me in any way...just trying to filter out myths from my mind and have a greater understanding in things.

In a way, gravity affects light only indirectly. What gravity does is change the shape of spacetime. Light follows the most direct paths through spacetime - lines that are, essentially, the shortest path between two points. If there is a lot of gravity around, then the most direct path for light might be a curve. This is a bit like travelling on the surface of Earth. If there is a hill in the way, the most direct path between two points might be a curve. In a black hole, spacetime is bent so much that the direct paths that light follows are closed loops.

StarCrazy wrote:I understand that greater mass creates greater gravitational forces, but essentially gravity is weak.


Gravity is indeed very, very weak. My favourite demonstration of just how weak it is works like this: Place a paperclip on a table. Hold a small magnet above the paperclip and it leaps off the table. Now, think of this as a tug of war between gravity and electromagnetism. The entire Earth is pulling the paperclip in one direction (down), yet it is beaten by one tiny magnet pulling the paperclip in the other direction (up).

The thing that distinguishes gravity from other forces is that it there is only one type of it (only one 'charge'). Everything is attractive - the more stuff you have, the more force you have and we feel the attraction through the whole of space. This is not true of electromagnetism. You can have lots and lots of electric charge but if half of it is positive and the other half negative then the long-range effect is nil.

So our magnet would have no (magnetic) effect on a similar magnet on the Moon, but the force of attraction of our paperclip (small as it is) extends to the the Moon, the Sun, the other stars of the Milky Way, the Local Group, etc.

Adam

Posted: 25.03.2004, 12:29
by t00fri
Hi Adam,
adamnieman wrote:
t00fri wrote:Why in 0 time???

The speed of light is 300000km/sec.
Correspondingly, light often takes millions of years to reach your eye after being emitted on a far away galaxy.

It's true that, as we measure it, it takes light 13 billion years to reach us from distant quasars. But from the point of view of the photon that makes the journey, it has taken no time at all. If a photon carried a watch, it wouldn't tick. This is 'time dilation' - clocks in different reference frames tick at different rates - and it works at all speeds. (I know I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here - but I thought it would be useful to spell it out. :) )

:wink: Of course, I know these formulae, but of course, their application to photons does not make sense at all, physically. The (massless) photon cannot be transformed to rest by any Lorentz transformation!

Looking at the world "from
a photons perspective" is therefore not possible and highly misleading.

t00fri wrote: Since you have a /non-zero mass/ it would take an /infinite/ amount of energy to accelerate your body to the speed of the light beam on which you proposed to travel.

So in the future, you better take a car or a plane...

Fortunately, we travel by Celestia, so our rest mass is zero. :D
It would be possible to implement a 'special relativity' mode in Celestia where-by we can increase our speed only upto the speed of light (or just below it). We could have two clocks displayed. One showing the time according to our watch and one showing the time on Earth. 8) How cool would that be?

Perhaps you have not realized yet that in Celestia, we can at least account for the light-traveling time by hitting a key. I have implemented this useful feature a long time ago. It is most essential when you want to time mutual events e.g. of the Galilean moons of Jupiter with high accuracy (which Celestia is amazingly capable to simulate)

A Celestia observer, actually moves with "tachyonic hyperspeed" >> c :wink: . After all, we can dial speeds of many lightyears/sec without problems. More seriously, he takes the role of a socalled "testparticle", not subject to the laws of physics governing the system he/she;-) examines...

As I wrote repeatedly, the incorporation of special relativity into Celestia is high up on my todo list since quite some time (unfortunately my own spare time is short in these days...)

StarCrazy wrote:I understand that greater mass creates greater gravitational forces, but essentially gravity is weak.

Gravity is indeed very, very weak.


This is also not entirely correct.

In all 4 field theories that we know of and believe in, Quantum Electrodynamics, Quantum Chromodynamics, Quantum Flavordynamics and (Quantum)Gravity,
the effective coupling strength depends on the relevant distance scale. So indeed, at macroscopic distances, gravity is extremely weak, but right after the big bang, where the horizon was extremely small, gravity becomes strong as well and we cannot use perturbative methods anymore!!

There, it will have to be embedded into (Super)String theory, for example, to make sense and be controllable at all...

Bye Fridger

Posted: 25.03.2004, 18:06
by Guest
The problem I see is correctly implimenting the time dilation formula without either limiting the camera to to operating within the formula's boundaries or expanding the fomula to include superluminal aspect of the camera.
Anyway this is something Ive wanted added for a while now and it also seems like a relatively easy thing to program aside from adding the cosmtic effects (so maybe you could whip together just a functional dilation clock in the corner for now :lol: ).

Posted: 26.03.2004, 01:42
by fsgregs
What a great thread. Thanks everyone for the discussion. Which brings up a key point. In a few weeks, I am going to teach at least one class lecture on Special Relativity in my Astronomy sections. You might think that seniors in high school would be ready for at least a week of both special and general relativity, but ... sigh ... :roll: 8O :? :cry: at least 1/2 of them have trouble subtracting fractions from whole numbers. I kid you NOT! Although Algebra 1 is a prerequisite for my course, higher math is not well taught to kids or applied in examples by many high school teachers, and the formulas and transformations present in relativity topics I would have to present would be stretching it a bit for at least 50% of my students, without a lot of remedial math. I don't have the time to do both.

As a result, I will try to keep the discussion simple and elementary. To that end, it has been (gasp!) over 28 years since I last visited Special Relativity in a detailed fashion. Of course I keep up with articles about it in the popular "journals" and magazines I read, but what I could really use is a good refresher and primer on the topic via the web that I could peruse and suggest to my students. Could you recommend a great website that covers the key topics of special relativity in a way that even a novice could understand?

Any recommendations are appreciated. :D

Frank

Posted: 26.03.2004, 03:03
by Evil Dr Ganymede
Hang on a mo. You can go superluminal in Celestia when you travel - how the heck are you supposed to model that relativistically?

Other than by saying "go to.... LUDICROUS SPEED!" and having a tartan streak cross the sky, that is.... :D

Posted: 26.03.2004, 07:46
by StarCrazy
Thanks guys for making my brain hurt that little bit more....I love it. As for the gravity affecting space-time and not directly light itself...I'm not embarrassed :oops: ...thanks for the wonderful refresher course and demonstrations.

T00fri Wrote:
Since you have a /non-zero mass/ it would take an /infinite/ amount of energy to accelerate your body to the speed of the light beam on which you proposed to travel.


Just curious....does this apply, regardless of any mass? If so, I recall somewhere that electrons are able to disappear and appear elsewhere simultaneaosly....I think electrons have mass...so how can this be if it takes an infinite amount of energy for a body with mass to travel at the speed of light? Where would this energy come from for the electron to tap into in order to travel at what I presume would be at the speed of light...if not quicker(tentatively added)...for it to simultaneously appear elsewhere? Forgive my ignorance, but after recently learning of existing in a 11 dimensional universe, would this discovery...or is it still theory?...play a major role in the electron's ability to travel so fast?

Thanks, Seldon, for helping me with the quotes...still can't seem to get rid of the word "quote", but that's cool...and thanks for the right perspective on the software...I am a little enthused by it...when's the version for the Virtual Reality helmet happinin'???....just kidding :wink:

Thanks
Chris

Posted: 26.03.2004, 07:53
by maxim
The way I would like to see it worked out is:

When in relativistic mode (e.g when 'show light travel delay' is switched on) there are two watches on the screen.
- An earth-relative 'universal clock' amd a local time clock.
- When observer is nearing light speed, that lets the 'universal clock' run faster.
- Reaching lightspeed and above switches mode off automatically OR
- Nearing lightspeed exponetially decreases further speedup and lightspeed is never reached.
- All colors are shifted to blue in front view, and to red in rear view.

The universe will be remarkably older then if you travel too long with too much speed.

Does that sound too complicated to code?

maxim

Posted: 27.03.2004, 09:30
by Guest
Anonymous wrote:The problem I see is correctly implimenting the time dilation formula without either limiting the camera to to operating within the formula's boundaries or expanding the fomula to include superluminal aspect of the camera.
Anyway this is something Ive wanted added for a while now and it also seems like a relatively easy thing to program aside from adding the cosmtic effects (so maybe you could whip together just a functional dilation clock in the corner for now :lol: ).


But the implementation of just time dilatation is by far not all that has to be accounted for, if relativistic corrections are to be considered. The much harder (but feasible part) concerns the distortions of the field of view of the observer as well as the (Doppler) shifts in colors. The whole 3d geometrical structures will be distorted depending on direction and value of the observer speed. This has massive implications on the rendering of almost everything within Celestia. Another consideration is optimized coding efficiency in order to avoid slowing down effects...

Bye Fridger

Posted: 27.03.2004, 09:34
by t00fri
sorry, the last post was by me...

I am in a "quite different Lorentz frame" right now...

Bye Fridger

Posted: 27.03.2004, 13:12
by adamnieman
t00fri wrote:The much harder (but feasible part) concerns the distortions of the field of view of the observer as well as the (Doppler) shifts in colors. The whole 3d geometrical structures will be distorted depending on direction and value of the observer speed. This has massive implications on the rendering of almost everything within Celestia. Another consideration is optimized coding efficiency in order to avoid slowing down effects...


If it could be done, it would be a fantastic teaching aid (as I'm sure Frank would attest). Teachers could populate a patch of empty space with trains, barns and grids (the staples of special relativity education) and let their students experience relativistic effects for themselves. Perhaps the value of the speed of light could be modified by the user to experiment with more managable values. In the Mr Tompkins books, George Gamow imagines what it would be like to cycle down the street if the speed of light was just 20mph or so.

(Barns are used in problems involving Lorentz contraction. You run, at relativistic speed, through a barn with a door at each end holding a pole that is longer than the barn itself. As soon as the end of the pole reaches the door it is opened, and as soon as the other end of the pole crosses the threshold the door is closed. For a moment from the barn's reference frame, both doors are closed simultaneously. Thus the pole, which we know is longer than the barn, fits into it 8O. When we try this from the pole's reference frame, the two doors are never simultaneously closed :wink:. )

Adam

Posted: 28.03.2004, 19:59
by t00fri
adamnieman wrote:
t00fri wrote:The much harder (but feasible part) concerns the distortions of the field of view of the observer as well as the (Doppler) shifts in colors. The whole 3d geometrical structures will be distorted depending on direction and value of the observer speed. This has massive implications on the rendering of almost everything within Celestia. Another consideration is optimized coding efficiency in order to avoid slowing down effects...

If it could be done, it would be a fantastic teaching aid (as I'm sure Frank would attest). Teachers could populate a patch of empty space with trains, barns and grids (the staples of special relativity education) and let their students experience relativistic effects for themselves. Perhaps the value of the speed of light could be modified by the user to experiment with more managable values. In the Mr Tompkins books, George Gamow imagines what it would be like to cycle down the street if the speed of light was just 20mph or so.

(Barns are used in problems involving Lorentz contraction. You run, at relativistic speed, through a barn with a door at each end holding a pole that is longer than the barn itself. As soon as the end of the pole reaches the door it is opened, and as soon as the other end of the pole crosses the threshold the door is closed. For a moment from the barn's reference frame, both doors are closed simultaneously. Thus the pole, which we know is longer than the barn, fits into it 8O. When we try this from the pole's reference frame, the two doors are never simultaneously closed :wink:. )

Adam


OK, back home after three days CERN@Geneva/ch...

Yes, indeed the effects will be stunning and certainly most educational. But it's gonna be fun, too, for people who don't want to be "educated" anymore :wink:

In fact, somewhere in the forum archive someone posted a URL where relativistic effects have been incorporated quite nicely, i.e. within 3d graphics.

Bye Fridger