Change of the Forum structure

[Guckytos]

Hi everyone,

in the near future there will be some changes to the structure of the Forum, because we think that the current one could be improved and cleaned up (on the top level).

The new structure will probably look like this:

Celestia Help

• Celestia Users
• Celestia Development (name TBD)
  
  • Development (the old "Celestia Development" Forum) (name TBD)
  • Bugs
  • Developer Talk
• Celestia Addons (name TBD)
  
  • Celestia Addons (name TBD)
  • Celestia Textures (name TBD)
  • Celestia Scripting (name TBD)
• Celestia Tutorials
• Celestia in education
• Physics and astronomy
• Purgatory

As you can see from the TBD I/we are not yet sure how to best name some things.
Also, I am not sure if the new structure like this is the ideal.

The new point Tutorials is meant to concentrate all the tutorials that are otherwise more or less lost somewhere in all the other posts and make them easily accessible to all.

If you have some good ideas how to organize everything in another way, you are welcome to share it.

This topic will stay sticky for 2 weeks. After this time a decision will be made and the restructuring will start.

[t00fri]

Christian,

who is we in your above post??

I am not so sure whether it is not too restrictive to "bury" Celestia Textures under Add-Ons!
Texture making and related activities (shape models) might well be of equal or higher importance for the official Celestia distribution than for Add-On creators. Since I stopped making textures/models for the official Celestia distribution, because of some disagreements with Chris, it's not of my immediate concern anymore...

Anyway, everyone is invited over to CelestialMatters for more "focussed" discussions about high-quality textures/shape models etc...

Fridger

[Guckytos]

Christian,

who is we in your above post??

Fridger

The we is Chris, Selden and myself.

[ajtribick]

So was this based on requests from the forum users or just because the triumvirate decided to?

My opinions on this anyway: using subforums is a really bad idea. They just make the navigation more difficult without much gain: for a start it is more difficult to access the subforums, secondly it hides away latest posts in these topics from the main page. By all means group the forums, e.g. over at Extrasolar Visions II we have the "General", "Extrasolar Visions", "Our Solar System" and "World Building" groups, but don't hide forums as subforums!

Whether or not this restructuring goes ahead, may I just point out that the really important restructuring that desperately needs to happen in Celestia is to the organisation of the source code. I am trying to figure out my way around the code to try adding new features but am constantly thwarted by hunting through files which are all just thrown together in the same directory. I did try bringing this up at the developers' list but the conversation there seems to have died (hey, do we even have enough active developers these days to make the idea of a conversation on the developers' list a possibility?)... I'd take a shot at it myself but regrettably I don't know enough about what everything is doing and all the dependencies to make a start.

[t00fri]

Andrew,

I entirely agree, but so what...I wasn't even asked for my opinion by the triumvirate

Fridger

[t00fri]

Whether or not this restructuring goes ahead, may I just point out that the really important restructuring that desperately needs to happen in Celestia is to the organisation of the source code. I am trying to figure out my way around the code to try adding new features but am constantly thwarted by hunting through files which are all just thrown together in the same directory.
...

Andrew,

almost 4 years ago I VERY simply made a VERY instructive documentation of the source code of Celestia 1.4.1 by running Doxygen through it. Have a look, at the results:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8704&hilit=Doxygen

For understanding the code it's really much better than introducing e.g. more subdirectories as you proposed in the dev list. It's best playing a bit with the results. Notably the generated flow diagrams are so much more instructive...

Fridger

[chris]

So was this based on requests from the forum users or just because the triumvirate decided to?

It started with a request from Christian for a forum specifically for tutorials. I replied that it's a good idea, but that with the increasing number of forums, we should consider adding some further structure.

My opinions on this anyway: using subforums is a really bad idea. They just make the navigation more difficult without much gain: for a start it is more difficult to access the subforums, secondly it hides away latest posts in these topics from the main page. By all means group the forums, e.g. over at Extrasolar Visions II we have the "General", "Extrasolar Visions", "Our Solar System" and "World Building" groups, but don't hide forums as subforums!

When I mentioned organization by using subforums, I meant the same thing that you call groups. The example I had in mind was unmannedspaceflight.com. I definitely agree with you that all forums should be visible on the main page. If 'subforum' implies hidden, then let's not use that term.

Whether or not this restructuring goes ahead, may I just point out that the really important restructuring that desperately needs to happen in Celestia is to the organisation of the source code. I am trying to figure out my way around the code to try adding new features but am constantly thwarted by hunting through files which are all just thrown together in the same directory. I did try bringing this up at the developers' list but the conversation there seems to have died (hey, do we even have enough active developers these days to make the idea of a conversation on the developers' list a possibility?)... I'd take a shot at it myself but regrettably I don't know enough about what everything is doing and all the dependencies to make a start.

Let's keep this thread focused on the organization of the forum, not the code. See my response on the developer's list (which I know is overdue--I got behind on my mail while traveling.)

--Chris

[Fenerit]

My 2 cents. Ramifying just Users and Development and leave the other as it is.

Users/
- Help
- Tutorials

Development/
- Feature request or Advancements or Discussion
- Bugs
- Developer Talk

EDIT LATER:
Usually the Users enters resembles help's requests.

[Guckytos]

Okay Andrew,

the term "subforum" was not good, grouping is definitely better. And also the right idea, I agree.

Fenerits Idea is also not too bad. But I would like to make more like this:

Celestia General

• Users
• Help
• Tutorials

Development

• Development
• Bugs
• Developer Talk

Addons

• Celestia Addons
• Celestia Scripting

Celestia Textures
Celestia in education
Physics and astronomy
Purgatory

Fridger had some good arguments against putting Textures under Addons as there are also discussions about texture development for the official Celestia package for example.

Perhaps "Scripting" could be divided into development and addons, but im not really sure about that idea.

And also perhaps could "Celestia in education" be put under general, but I would tend more to leave as an extra point.

Regards,

Guckytos

[Guckytos]

Andrew,

I entirely agree, but so what...I wasn't even asked for my opinion by the triumvirate

Fridger

Oh, you old and wise oracle from the far north, could you please be so kind and direct your attention to the sorrows of us lowly mortals and enlighten us with your great wisdom and mercy?

Now I just have to build a time machine and send this back to a time before the first post. Will only take one or two aeons 'til I'm done with it.

[t00fri]

Andrew,

I entirely agree, but so what...I wasn't even asked for my opinion by the triumvirate

You have been asked for your opinion: that's the whole point of this thread.

--Chris

As you can see, the first post after Christian's announcement:

in the near future there will be some changes to the structure of the Forum, because we think ...

is by myself and already contains some constructive critique of Christian's proposal. At CM we have of course adopted for good reasons a scheme without (hidden) subforums, in form of groups of topics. My 7.5 years of active membership in this community and my non-negligible experience as a CM Site Administrator can perhaps explain my above surprised reaction after reading

we think...

Fridger

[symaski62]

Celestia General

• Users
• Help
• Tutorials

Development

• Development
• Bugs
• Developer Talk

Addons

• Celestia Addons
• Celestia Scripting
• Celestia Textures

education

• Celestia in education

cafe

• Physics and astronomy
• Purgatory

sympa

"cafe" <=

[ajtribick]

How about this? Couple of suggested new forums: "Announcements" for announcing releases, significant changes to the forum, etc., "Rules and FAQ" for the forum rules, "Celestia utilities" for various spreadsheets and other manipulation programs that are currently confined to a sticky thread in the Add-ons forum. Since this is really only a grouping of the main page and not subforums (thanks for the clarification), Celestia Textures logically belongs in a group with other kinds of content creation.

• General
  • Announcements
  • Rules and FAQ
• Discussion
  • Celestia users
  • Physics and astronomy
  • Purgatory
• Development
  • Celestia bugs
  • Celestia development
  • Developer talk
• Content
  • Celestia add-ons
  • Celestia textures
  • Celestia scripting
  • Celestia utilities
• Help
  • Celestia help
  • Celestia tutorials
  • Celestia in education

[Fenerit]

This is no bad; even though the order would be:
General - Help - Development - Content - Discussion

[t00fri]

How about this? Couple of suggested new forums: "Announcements" for announcing releases, significant changes to the forum, etc., "Rules and FAQ" for the forum rules, "Celestia utilities" for various spreadsheets and other manipulation programs that are currently confined to a sticky thread in the Add-ons forum. Since this is really only a grouping of the main page and not subforums (thanks for the clarification), Celestia Textures logically belongs in a group with other kinds of content creation.

• General
  • Announcements
  • Rules and FAQ
• Discussion
  • Celestia users
  • Physics and astronomy
  • Purgatory
• Development
  • Celestia bugs
  • Celestia development
  • Developer talk
• Content
  • Celestia add-ons
  • Celestia textures
  • Celestia scripting
  • Celestia utilities
• Help
  • Celestia help
  • Celestia tutorials
  • Celestia in education

Andrew,

that looks like a considerable improvement. Here is what I would do differently:

1) I would move the Help section up (under General) and the Discussion section last.
2) Furthermore, instead of repeating "Celestia" all the time in the forum headers, I would e.g.
write:

• Celestia Development
  
  • Bugs
  • Ideas & News
  • TechTalk
  
  
• Celestia Content
  
  • Add-ons
  • Textures
  • Scripting
  • Utilities

etc.

3) Finally, "Purgatory" deserves a better name, given it's often interesting (non-Celestia-related) content.

Fridger

[Fenerit]

...And what about to move "Education" under "Development", being "Education" the place for customized Celestia's version and the developments of LUATOOLS and LUA relate objects? Under the "Help" enter could be source of confusion amongst what is standard distributions and which are third parties.

[ajtribick]

I don't think that the Education forum belongs under Development, simply because it is not part of the actual Celestia distribution. Then again I almost never look at that forum, so I don't know what it would properly be filed under.

[Fenerit]

.
.
.

3) Finally, "Purgatory" deserves a better name, given it's often interesting (non-Celestia-related) content.
Fridger

"Trick or Treating"?
"Caf?"?
"Breakfast"?
"Relax"?
"Entertainmen"?
"Fanzine"?
"Twilight Zone"?
"Radio Celestia International"?
"No way out"?
.
.

[BobHegwood]

How about "Extra-Solar Exchanges?"

Thanks, Brain-Dead

[symaski62]

etc.

3) Finally, "Purgatory" deserves a better name, given it's often interesting (non-Celestia-related) content.

Fridger

yes "cafe" non-celestia