What would be needed to go to a full 1.5.0 release?

[hank]

I generally agree with what's been said by Runar, Fridger, Christophe, et al.

New features (beyond what's already been implemented in the 1.5.0 prelease) are much less important than a timely stable release based on a sustainable development process.

It would be a great help, of course, if Chris were able to return to active involvement with Celestia. But a sustainable development process cannot depend on his participation.

It makes sense to continue using the Sourceforge CVS repository for source code control, as long as Chris does not object and authorized developers are available to do the commits. I'm fairly sure that Chris wouldn't object to bug fixes and completion of work in progress for 1.5.0.

Fridger should by all means continue working on his "super-sized" version of Celestia aka CosmoViz over at CelestialMatters, although any assistance he could provide on Celestia 1.5.0 would of course be a great help.

To be honest, though, at this point I'm doubtful there would be sufficient volunteers to make such an effort to revive Celestia development successful.

- Hank

[t00fri]

To be honest, though, at this point I'm doubtful there would be sufficient volunteers to make such an effort to revive Celestia development successful.

- Hank

Indeed, and the reason is quite apparent.

We first of all need to know (for sure) the role of Chris L. in this game. Before that is settled, I for one will NOT vast my time anymore with talking about the future in public...

I bet if Chris L. reappears tomorrow, writes in the dev list that he wants to wrap up Celestia 1.5.0 until next weekend...most devs and other activists show up IMMEDIATELY and are "aligned" again, proceeding as usual.

• Most probably Chris L. will reappear when his Celestia-related contract has terminated (and the remodeling of his appartment is finished).
  
• Most probably he will at best releases ONE sentence like "I am very sorry that I could not devote more time to Celestia recently". Most people will not complain and one proceeds normally...

Bye Fridger

[Cham]

Excluding the bug fixes (which should be a priority), there are two features which, IMHO, should be implemented "in a very short period of time". From my list given on the first page of this topic :

1- the markers aren't depth sorted. This is extremelly confusing. I'm using lots of markers, and they should be depth sorted so the background markers are hidden behind the foreground objects. This is especially important when I'm doing a presentation in the classroom, on a large wall screen in front of the students. Currently, the markers are always "in the way".

2- we need an "unclickable" option for the SSC and DSC codes. Very often, we are placing all sorts of objects (floating text, accretion disks, etc) which may be in the way. A student may want to click on an important object located at the center of some accretion disk, say, but then he will invariably end with the accretion disk selected, instead of the central object. This is very annoying. The accretion disk itself should be made unclickable (while visible), by adding a new code line in its SSC file :

Code: Select all

Clickable false

By default, all objects are clickable without this code line.

Are the developpers (Fridger, Hank, Vincent, Christophe, DW, ...) know how to do this, without the intervention of Chris ?

[ElChristou]

...I bet if Chris L. reappears tomorrow, writes in the dev list that he wants to wrap up Celestia 1.5.0 until next weekend...most devs and other activists show up IMMEDIATELY and are "aligned" again, proceeding as usual.

...Most probably he will at best releases ONE sentence like "I am very sorry that I could not devote more time to Celestia recently". Most people will not complain and one proceeds normally...

That would be a really pathetic scheme... and it would be completely illogic and stupid.
Ok, in the past this have already happen once, but the difference is that everybody here knows now that Chris attitude is not just a futile one, he just decide to not care about the needs of the community. Entering again such game would be more a kind of idolatry to Chris L. person than anything else...
Ok I'm not a dev, but perso I would not follow this kind of way...

[hank]

Excluding the bug fixes (which should be a priority), there are two features which, IMHO, should be implemented "in a very short period of time".

Cham,

The problem is not that Celestia is missing this or that new feature. (And it's very unlikely there would be general agreement as to which new features are most important to add.) The problem is that Celestia lacks a sustainable development process.

Having such a process is necessary not only for Celestia to continue to progress, but also to make it possible to recruit and assimilate additional developers.

We first of all need to know (for sure) the role of Chris L. in this game. Before that is settled, I for one will NOT vast my time anymore with talking about the future in public...

I bet if Chris L. reappears tomorrow, writes in the dev list that he wants to wrap up Celestia 1.5.0 until next weekend...most devs and other activists show up IMMEDIATELY and are "aligned" again, proceeding as usual.

Fridger,

There would need to be agreement from everyone going in that the objective is to establish a sustainable development process for Celestia, and not simply to cajole Chris into a (perhaps temporary) return to business as usual.

Of course, it would be a great help if Chris were able to contribute, and we all hope he could. But that would not be the goal of the effort.

- Hank

[t00fri]

Fridger,

There would need to be agreement from everyone going in that the objective is to establish a sustainable development process for Celestia, and not simply to cajole Chris into a (perhaps temporary) return to business as usual.

Of course, it would be a great help if Chris were able to contribute, and we all hope he could. But that would not be the goal of the effort.

- Hank

Hank from my many conversations with Chris L. before his vanishing, I can practically assure you that Chris L. will NOT want to abandon Celestia. To the contrary!

So it's certainly not a matter of cajoling him...

In my view he is most probably suspended in a NON-GPL2 licence setup during a temporary Celestia related contract. One "lazy" way to deal with this situation towards the Celestia community is to simply explain NOTHING during the duration of this temporary assignment. That's quite probably what happened before (~2 years ago)

Bye Fridger

[hank]

In my view he is most probably suspended in a NON-GPL2 licence setup during a temporary Celestia related contract. One "lazy" way to deal with this situation towards the Celestia community is to simply explain NOTHING during the duration of this temporary assignment. That's quite probably what happened before (~2 years ago)

Fridger,

It doesn't really matter why Chris is unable to be actively involved with the open source version of Celestia. The problem is not so much that Chris isn't able to contribute to Celestia development (although of course his contributions would be invaluable), but that no one else can contribute effectively in his absence. That's why a sustainable development process is needed.

- Hank

[t00fri]

In my view he is most probably suspended in a NON-GPL2 licence setup during a temporary Celestia related contract. One "lazy" way to deal with this situation towards the Celestia community is to simply explain NOTHING during the duration of this temporary assignment. That's quite probably what happened before (~2 years ago)

Fridger,

It doesn't really matter why Chris is unable to be actively involved with the open source version of Celestia. The problem is not so much that Chris isn't able to contribute to Celestia development (although of course his contributions would be invaluable), but that no one else can contribute effectively in his absence. That's why a sustainable development process is needed.

- Hank

Sorry, but for me these listed issues matter a lot after 6 years of collaboration! They may not for you...Also my explanations were just to underlign that he will reappear in the near-future.


Bye Fridger

[ElChristou]

In my view he is most probably suspended in a NON-GPL2 licence setup during a temporary Celestia related contract. One "lazy" way to deal with this situation towards the Celestia community is to simply explain NOTHING during the duration of this temporary assignment. That's quite probably what happened before (~2 years ago)

But what Chris is doing at this level is irrelevant for the community! There is only two options; or we can have a normal dialogue with him or we cannot. Or we accept his silence or not.

Each one is free to choose what seems best for Celestia. If people decide this situation cannot last anymore and more important should not happen again in the future, then we must find a way to open again the dialogue with Chris very soon to define some new politics for Celestia future. If no dialogue is possible then unfortunately the fork will become a real option...

Edit: Oops, cross post with Hank...

[hank]

Sorry, but for me these listed issues matter a lot after 6 years of collaboration! They may not for you...Also my explanations were just to underlign that he will reappear in the near-future.

Fridger,

I did not mean to suggest that your personal issues with Chris are unimportant or unjustified. But my focus here is on how to get Celestia development moving again, with a sustainable process that has the possibility of attracting and assimilating new developers.

- Hank

[t00fri]

OK all fine. I think it is highly probable that Chris is reading these discussions. The fact that he does not enter the discussion admits some conclusions.

This URL should keep you up-to-date
http://picasaweb.google.com/claurel/Remodel

Bye Fridger

[ElChristou]

OK all fine. I think it is highly probable that Chris is reading these discussions. The fact that he does not enter the discussion admits some conclusions.

This URL should keep you up-to-date
http://picasaweb.google.com/claurel/Remodel

Bye Fridger

Perso I really don't care about Chris L. bathroom or bedroom or kitchen...
Since a week now I have 3 masons and two house painter lurking all around my house and what? I've been working for my business, helping the masons on some details, painting, 3 minutes ago I was passing wax on a freshly new floor in one bedroom, and with all that stuff around I've able to write many post today here and @ CM...

Definitivey, I don't understand Chris L. attitude knowing he is reading those post... (is it so complicated to write something like "Hey guys, stop the paranoia, I'll be back soon..."??)

[t00fri]

Definitivey, I don't understand Chris L. attitude knowing he is reading those post... (is it so complicated to write something like "Hey guys, stop the paranoia, I'll be back soon..."??)

Now we are returning to the real issue! Most of us have lots of things to do besides Celestia. We just deal with them and still are able to communicate.

Chris L. is apparently not. Is this an offense? Or what?

I quoted that url, not to make anybody envious of Chris' new stylish bathroom, but rather to underlign that he submitted the last photo on Oct 1st, i.e. 3 days ago!



Bye Fridger

[ElChristou]

Now we are returning to the real issue!...

Yes and no. The real issue is finally just beyond this problem. The real question is:

Is Celestia deserving such one man show? Is there not a better structure to make this project more ambitious at all levels and please everybody? (for it's goals, from the workforce/community point of view etc...)

[Cham]

ElChristou is right.

Celestia is extremely weak because it is currently standing on "one" man only (of course, in reality, there are more developpers at its base). But currently, all decisions are on a single man shoulder. This is extremely bad, for a software that is now used by LOTS of people around the world, professionals, teachers, in planetariums, etc... and Chris is too unreliable. So something MUST be done to remove that weakness (I'm not saying to remove Chris himself !).

EDIT : Maybe Chris is also acting this way as a signal to us : "see ? I'm not there anymore, for an unknown period of time. If you want Celestia to evolve as an independant organism, you need to organize so I don't have to do all the work and take the decisions alone. You need to organize".

Anyway, this is the way I'm interpreting his attitude.

[MKruer]

I am forced to agree with ElChristou and Cham. If all it take is for one person to leave to bring the entire development to a screeching halt. The perhaps it is time to remove that weakness.

[ajtribick]

Very interesting to hear the views of the development community here. I'm glad the original question I asked has lead to this discussion.

At this stage I'd suggest a fork to a branch run by people who are prepared to be more active in the community. The main branch of Celestia depends on Chris and he's obviously unreliable (which is a mild term considering he basically is perfectly happy with leaving an entire development team in limbo while he disappears for months without a word). The major developments in Celestia are currently happening on Celestial Matters rather than shatters.net anyway. Celestial Matters is run by people who obviously care a LOT about the project and have a lot of talent between them (and furthermore do maintain an active presence in the community). Whether they'd be willing to take on development roles in a non-official distribution, I don't know.

We can either sit around doing nothing, endlessly debating whether Chris will come back or not and what will happen then, while watching people with development skills, interest in astronomy and artistic talent leave, or the community has to take radical action. A "Celestial Matters" fork of Celestia? That's up to the Celestial Matters team to decide (I only suggest them because that is where active development, the required knowledge, and the commitment to Celestia lies), but without the community supporting it, Celestia is on perilous grounds.

The situation may well require contacting Chris, not with a request for him to come back and explain, but to present him with an ultimatum.

Then again, I am not a code developer, so feel free to disregard my opinion. I do have plans for doing a major overhaul of extrasolar planets in Celestia (similar to my Sudarsky classes add-on - now incorporated into the distribution - but more extensive), but like the majority of people here I have other demands on my time than Celestia: why contribute to a project that may never see another major release?

[ElChristou]

EDIT : Maybe Chris is also acting this way as a signal to us : "see ? I'm not there anymore, for an unknown period of time. If you want Celestia to evolve as an independant organism, you need to organize so I don't have to do all the work and take the decisions alone. You need to organize"...

Perso I think the best supposition must be Fridger's one. But really we must see the problem deeper. It's not a problem of Chris L. or someone else, it's a question of Celestia's future on the long run. Now it's not a simple problem; what I'm wondering is how other big project have been able to handle (to avoid) such annoying intern problem... and more precisely, what about the copyright? Do you know guys some examples that could serve us to build some thinking upon?

[ajtribick]

As for the question of copyright, Celestia is released under the GPLv2, as stated in the file README.

How that interacts with the copyright, I do not know.

[Cham]

Do you know guys some examples that could serve us to build some thinking upon?

Stellarium ?
NeoOffice ?