Forums *very* slow?

[JackHiggins]

Sorry, I seem to be the last idealist...

Nah... You're not alone...

The system is again dead slow for me!

Comparing it to the forums at badastronomy.com, which use the exact same phpBB software, i'd say that these forums are consistently about 1/2 the speed.

I simply do not have enough time for this fuzz. This apparently is the prize for Celestia's "fame", precisely as I predicted about a year ago...

I don't mind so much- with a dialup everythings really slow anyway, you just get used to it...

I can also tell from an email "head wave" I get from people that are definitely too lazy to spend more than a minute or two to find out how Celestia and add-on textures might work...

It's not really that complicated people!! Possibly I can understand how non-english speakers would have trouble understanding the celestia website & some documentation, but otherwise it's almost self explanatory...

Also reading the [developer] mails from all those "advocates" of the various Linux distributions, who request us to "clean up" every tiny source of textures in order that they are legally able to make money with Celestia, makes me kind of sick...

I thought that linux users were all into sharing & non-profit & freeware etc!! Perhaps not... (?) Celestia is freeware...

[Christophe]

A NetworkNews server (often miscalled Usenet server) certainly would use much less network bandwidth than a Web Forum server, but the user interface is much different. For many reasons, I do not think it would be appropriate to create a public Usenet newsgroup, although a private Celestia NNTP server would be quite acceptable to me.

Yes, I was thinking of a private NNTP server hosted on shatters.net, not of the public Usenet network. Anyway I think the gateway works only with a localy hosted NNTP server.

[Christophe]

OK, I definitely give up now... I was spending an unjustifyable amount of time waiting while preparing a number of lengthy posts in "Physics and Astronomy". The system is again dead slow for me!

I think there is a larger problem here, all american sites are really slow or even unaccessible for me. I think there is a very big problem with a transatlantic cable or something.

shatters.net is actually one of the only site I can still reach across the pond.

Sorry, I seem to be the last idealist...

No, no, debianers are the idealists, you're a pragmatist! ;-)

[t00fri]

...

Also reading the [developer] mails from all those "advocates" of the various Linux distributions, who request us to "clean up" every tiny source of textures in order that they are legally able to make money with Celestia, makes me kind of sick...

I thought that linux users were all into sharing & non-profit & freeware etc!! Perhaps not... (?) Celestia is freeware...

Yes indeed, Celestia is freeware, but Linux freeware is since long "globalized" in the hands of a few surviving Linux distributors who fight fiercely among each other for "global reign";-), making money with the work others did...The "dream prize" is worldwide software distribution and "fame". None of these companies, however, would ever want to consider paying for a new server for Chris, for a change...

A generic weapon used consists in the thread: "if your software does not comply with "our legal requests" we shall place it into our "lower draw" labelled "unfree" or similar..."

Bye Fridger

[t00fri]

OK, I definitely give up now... I was spending an unjustifyable amount of time waiting while preparing a number of lengthy posts in "Physics and Astronomy". The system is again dead slow for me!

I think there is a larger problem here, all american sites are really slow or even unaccessible for me. I think there is a very big problem with a transatlantic cable or something.

shatters.net is actually one of the only site I can still reach across the pond.

OK Christophe, let's hope you are right -- for the peace of my soul;-). Yet, I have been just using extensively the URL's of this big conference at Fermi National Lab in Batavia/Illinois. It /lightening/ fast...

Sorry, I seem to be the last idealist...

No, no, debianers are the idealists, you're a pragmatist!

h?, h?...

Bye Fridger

[Christophe]

I thought that linux users were all into sharing & non-profit & freeware etc!! :? Perhaps not... (?) Celestia is freeware...

Debian is a purists' distribution, they follow their charter to the letter and do not tolerate uncertainties regarding the licencing of anything going into their distribution. They'd rather not include a valuable piece of software rather than taking the risk of tainting their distribution.

They can be a real pain to developers, once they found something to nitpick about they don't stop until it's fixed...

Celestia is not Freeware, it's Free Software (or Open Source). Freeware usualy does not come with the sources or the modification and redistribution rights. The problem is that these additional rights are required for inclusion in Debian, but may not be granted for some texture or data files.

Free Software is also different from Not for profit, the GPL explicitly grants the right to charge to cover the distribution costs and the development costs can also be charged. So a 'not for commercial use' type of licence is also not valid for inclusion in Debian.

[Christophe]

OK Christophe, let's hope you are right -- for the peace of my soul;-). Yet, I have been just using extensively the URL's of this big conference at Fermi National Lab in Batavia/Illinois. It /lightening/ fast...

For me they were inaccessible like the rest of the US... That lasted for 2 hours, it's just came back to normal now.

[t00fri]

I thought that linux users were all into sharing & non-profit & freeware etc!! Perhaps not... (?) Celestia is freeware...

Debian is a purists' distribution, they follow their charter to the letter and do not tolerate uncertainties regarding the licencing of anything going into their distribution. They'd rather not include a valuable piece of software rather than taking the risk of tainting their distribution.

Christophe, what do you want me to conlude from this? That Debian is just a little bit less commercially minded than the others?;-) No, you are kidding... Do you claim there is an epsilon left of the original Linux spirit of sharing etc?

Each distributor is concerned creating an "image" towards its customers, just like car factories create images to attract a particular group of buyers...We are not naive, are we?

We talk about companies that run at the stock market...no room left for jooking here;-)

Celestia is not Freeware, it's Free Software (or Open Source). Freeware usualy does not come with the sources or the modification and redistribution rights. The problem is that these additional rights are required for inclusion in Debian, but may not be granted for some texture or data files.

Of course, I am aware of the differences between Freeware and Open Source. Sorry for my sloppyness. I was just too lazy to enter this issue...

Bye Fridger

[Christophe]

Yes indeed, Celestia is freeware, but Linux freeware is since long "globalized" in the hands of a few surviving Linux distributors who fight fiercely among each other for "global reign";-), making money with the work others did...The "dream prize" is worldwide software distribution and "fame". None of these companies, however, would ever want to consider paying for a new server for Chris, for a change...

You're forgetting that Debian is one of the rare non-commercial Linux distribution based entirely on volunteers just like Celestia...

To my knowledge Celestia is not yet included in any of the big commercial distribution.

[JackHiggins]

Yes indeed, Celestia is freeware, but Linux freeware is since long "globalized" in the hands of a few surviving Linux distributors who fight fiercely among each other for "global reign", making money with the work others did...The "dream prize" is worldwide software distribution and "fame". None of these companies, however, would ever want to consider paying for a new server for Chris, for a change...

A generic weapon used consists in the thread: "if your software does not comply with "our legal requests" we shall place it into our "lower draw" labelled "unfree" or similar..."

Usually when something like this happens (small groups squabbling) someone new steps in, and shakes up the whole market... Any chance this could happen?

Celestia is not Freeware, it's Free Software (or Open Source). Freeware usualy does not come with the sources or the modification and redistribution rights. The problem is that these additional rights are required for inclusion in Debian, but may not be granted for some texture or data files.

Free Software is also different from Not for profit, the GPL explicitly grants the right to charge to cover the distribution costs and the development costs can also be charged. So a 'not for commercial use' type of licence is also not valid for inclusion in Debian.

Ah ok thanks- I didn't realise there was a difference! (When I said freeware I just thought it meant any type of software that you don't have to pay for...)

Dunno why i'm so interested in linux all of a sudden though...! (I know absolutely NOTHING about it)

[Christophe]

Christophe, what do you want me to conlude from this? That Debian is just a little bit less commercially minded than the others?;-) No, you are kidding... Do you claim there is an epsilon left of the original Linux spirit of sharing etc?

Each distributor is concerned creating an "image" towards its customers, just like car factories create images to attract a particular group of buyers...We are not naive, are we?

We talk about companies that run at the stock market...no room left for jooking here;-)

As I've said, Debian is not a company, they're not making any money from their distribution, not more than we are from Celestia.

They are the last of the Mohicans!

See their Social Contract for more information.

[t00fri]

Yes indeed, Celestia is freeware, but Linux freeware is since long "globalized" in the hands of a few surviving Linux distributors who fight fiercely among each other for "global reign";-), making money with the work others did...The "dream prize" is worldwide software distribution and "fame". None of these companies, however, would ever want to consider paying for a new server for Chris, for a change...

You're forgetting that Debian is one of the rare non-commercial Linux distribution based entirely on volunteers just like Celestia...

To my knowledge Celestia is not yet included in any of the big commercial distribution.

Well Celestia 1.2.5 is part of SuSE 8.2 and SuSE is big an commercial and at the stock market and...

OK, I take it;-): Debian saves the Linux spirit.

Bye Fridger

[selden]

OK Christophe, let's hope you are right -- for the peace of my soul;-). Yet, I have been just using extensively the URL's of this big conference at Fermi National Lab in Batavia/Illinois. It /lightening/ fast...

For me they were inaccessible like the rest of the US... That lasted for 2 hours, it's just came back to normal now.

Unfortunately (if that's the right description ) DESY's connection to FNAL is a very special case. Their HEPnet connections to one another go by way of Internet II much of the way, not by way of the public Internet. I don't know if Fridger's connection from home can take advantage of that network.

[Christophe]

Well Celestia 1.2.5 is part of SuSE 8.2 and SuSE is big an commercial and at the stock market and...

I didn't know Celestia was part of SuSE.

Indeed SuSE is big, and not one of the most community oriented distribution... That's why I like Mandrake, they're commercial all right but the spirit is still very much there and the community is large and active.

[t00fri]

OK Christophe, let's hope you are right -- for the peace of my soul;-). Yet, I have been just using extensively the URL's of this big conference at Fermi National Lab in Batavia/Illinois. It /lightening/ fast...

For me they were inaccessible like the rest of the US... That lasted for 2 hours, it's just came back to normal now.

Unfortunately (if that's the right description ) DESY's connection to FNAL is a very special case. Their HEPnet connections to one another go by way of Internet II much of the way, not by way of the public Internet. I don't know if Fridger's connection from home can take advantage of that network.

Yes we 'love' the guys at Fermilab;-). No joking, during office hours I usually get > 500kb/sec connections to all major labs, "even" to Cornell, ahem;-).

You are most probably right, Selden. Sure one of my hostnames at home is 'fschrempp.desy.de', you'll find it in your DNS data base with nslookup;-). Another most useful aspect of being a member of the .desy.de domain is that I have access from home to the electronic versions of the vast amount of scientific journals, our library has subscribed to.

Bye Fridger

[selden]

Yes we 'love' the guys at Fermilab;-). No joking, during office hours I usually get > 500kb/sec connections to all major labs, "even" to Cornell, ahem;-).

Ahem, indeed
Cornell's too cheap to get a private I2 connection (~US$150,000/year, I understand) so our link to I2 is by way of Nysernet in New York City. Nysernet's reasonably fast, but not quite I2 speeds.

[Christophe]

Unfortunately (if that's the right description :) ) DESY's connection to FNAL is a very special case. Their HEPnet connections to one another go by way of Internet II much of the way, not by way of the public Internet. I don't know if Fridger's connection from home can take advantage of that network.

Apparently the problem was only with my ISP. There was a flood coming from the USA to one of their ADSL customer, and that saturated the transit connection with the USA.