ESA uses Celestia

[t00fri]

See the second image on the page http://www.esa.int/export/esaCP/SEMOUD374OD_index_1.html#subhead1

I think the credit for Celestia was added in just the past day or two. I don't recall seeing it before, and it can't be found using the site's search engine.

As yet, there are no Celestia credits on the page http://www.esa.int/export/esaSC/SEM4GC374OD_index_1.html#subhead3

I have also written to them a very angry letter "between scientists" yesterday evening, which might well have caused the credit after all. I do have a few extra weapons available...

The tag

"Credits: ESA 2003"

below the various Celestia simulation images with absolutely NO reference to Celestia I consider a scandal!

I can only explain this rude and unprofessional/unscientific attitude by assuming that the person who actually did those WEB pages, has never been in touch with scientific ethics and integrity!

Anyone who has at least mild contact with the uncommercial scientific community should be aware that the codex of fair citation is "sacred", indeed...

In my institution, for example, we practice severe control of what is published on our WEB pages, notably in order to make sure that the basic rules of scientific citation and good scientific manners are never violated...

Quite a number of my scientific colleagues, who also enjoy using Celestia regularly, were more than bewildered about this hard-to-understand PR-'performance' of a world-renowned organization...

Bye Fridger

[selden]

Sometimes people in ESA do not want their work to be personally credited.
For example, the person who provided the Integral model on my "spacecraft" page asked that the credit just be "courtesy of ESA".

Maybe they think this applies to everyone...

Added slightly later:

There are several orbit displays generated by some other program that have no credit either. Some of them do say "ORATOS" in the image itself.

[t00fri]

Sometimes people in ESA do not want their work to be personally credited.
For example, the person who provided the Integral model on my "spacecraft" page asked that the credit just be "courtesy of ESA".

Maybe they think this applies to everyone...

I don't think so! ...and I know a number of ESA scientists in person. Same rules of the game...Science is science!

It must have happened due to a temporary lack of WEB control in those hectic, media-intensive "Mars Express" days. Usually, the guys who are asked to do such WEB pages have little overlap in practice with the responsable people of the project.

The person(s) in charge will recognize for sure the bad impression this sort of style makes to the outside scientific community...

Bye Fridger

[wcomer]

Hi All,

Perhaps we should give the ESA the benefit of the doubt.

There is nothing that I can find in the Celestia license which says that distribution of Celestia-based images requires citation. I'm no expert on the GNU GPL but I believe it would also not require such a citation from the ESA. Assuming that all data they use is their own or public domain, then again there is no need for citation. Finally, who then deserves the credit for the image? Surely, someone at ESA did set up the particulars of that image: selecting which orbits to show, the viewing distance, the camera angle, etc. Typically isn't it the photographer who receives credit rather than the camera? Therefore, I can see the logic by which they decided to give credit to the ESA. Consider also the artistic image credited to ESA/Medialab, would it have been appropriate for the ESA to credit GIMP or whichever image enhancing software they used?

At the same time members of the Celestia community often do not think of Celestia as just another software tool, but rather as the embodiment of the work of the developers and the community at large. It is natural to want to see Celestia credited and promoted. But I believe that being gracious to the ESA would be a better route than accusing them of unprofessionalism.

Where ESA and others decide to credit Celestia, I consider that a courtesy but not a requirement. Furthermore, it seems that they have recognized the concern of the Celestia community and are trying to amend the situation.

Either way, the Celestia community is fortunate to have notable persons who have it in their power to influence agencies like the ESA whenever they may stray from proper decorum.

cheers,
Walton

[t00fri]

Hi All,

Perhaps we should give the ESA the benefit of the doubt.

There is nothing that I can find in the Celestia license which says that distribution of Celestia-based images requires citation. I'm no expert on the GNU GPL but I believe it would also not require such a citation from the ESA. Assuming that all data they use is their own or public domain, then again there is no need for citation. Finally, who then deserves the credit for the image? Surely, someone at ESA did set up the particulars of that image: selecting which orbits to show, the viewing distance, the camera angle, etc. Typically isn't it the photographer who receives credit rather than the camera? Therefore, I can see the logic by which they decided to give credit to the ESA. Consider also the artistic image credited to ESA/Medialab, would it have been appropriate for the ESA to credit GIMP or whichever image enhancing software they used?

At the same time members of the Celestia community often do not think of Celestia as just another software tool, but rather as the embodiment of the work of the developers and the community at large. It is natural to want to see Celestia credited and promoted. But I believe that being gracious to the ESA would be a better route than accusing them of unprofessionalism.

Where ESA and others decide to credit Celestia, I consider that a courtesy but not a requirement. Furthermore, it seems that they have recognized the concern of the Celestia community and are trying to amend the situation.

Either way, the Celestia community is fortunate to have notable persons who have it in their power to influence agencies like the ESA whenever they may stray from proper decorum.

cheers,
Walton

Come on Walton;-)...

When I or any scientist in the world writes a paper, there is not even a "licence" at all that states how other scientists should behave when using our results!

Yet, it is considered a "dead sin" in the community, to ignore other peoples work deliberately!
The scientist guys at ESA follow the same rules, you bet!

In case of the Celestia plots at the ESA site, the people who produced the plots must have known about Celestia, right?

Signing the Celestia plots by "Credit: ESA 2003" without mentioning of Celestia is unbelievable...

Celestia is being developed as a non-commercial venture by a number of devoted computer scientists, physicists , etc, led by Chris. Celestia is a real-time space simulation,representing a unique synthesis of stunning 3d graphics and state of the art scientific precision. So there is really no conceptional difference between scientists writing papers and the people developing Celestia.

No reason whatsoever to skip referring to Celestia! It's a question of style and good manners, not a question of stupid licences!

Bye Fridger

[maxim]

It seems they use huge customized versions of Celestia for teaching puposes.

Ok, to calm that down, just to something completely different: Has anybody checked why the NASA customized version is so big? Because of more textures only?

BTW, perhaps someone should write an email to the NASAs site administrator to give him a hint that a new version is available (quite valuable to have that mirror at NASA).

maxim

[selden]

Maxim,

I'm sure Alan is well aware of the new version

My impression is that there may be quite a few changes needed in NASA's Addons to make them compatible with v1.3.1. The change in the Radius used for Mars messed up the location of the lander model, for example. If they advertise the new version before they've checked all their addons, they'd get a lot of complaints about things not working.

That's one of the problems when you write software (Addons) that is used in a rapidly changing environment (Celestia). It's hard to stay compatible. You have to say "this version of software X works only with version Y of this other package under version Z of operating system A." Eventually it all falls apart when one of them isn't available any more.

(That's why there are so many problems getting Celestia to work well under the different versions of Linux, for example. And why RedHat now has an Enterprise version of Linux that they guarantee won't be changing in major ways for several years.)

*sigh*

[AuReality]

See the second image on the page http://www.esa.int/export/esaCP/SEMOUD374OD_index_1.html#subhead1

I think the credit for Celestia was added in just the past day or two. I don't recall seeing it before, and it can't be found using the site's search engine.

Oh well, maybe my letter has helped then...
Anyway, the 'credits' is still rather meagre.

Paul

[diegorodriguez]

Well, this is the official reply I've just received from ESA regarding the use of Celestia on their website. It's a kind one, and I'm very pleased to copy to you all.

"Dear Sr Rodriguez
Thank you for your kind words and interesting note. You are right, we did
make a small oversight, which we have now corrected and put Celestia in our credit list.

It is our normal practice to acknowledge copyrights, and we
appreciate your feedback. In the web team, we are not in a position to
comment about the data used, but will certainly pass on your email to the
relevant department.

Regards
Carl Walker
ESA Science web editor"

We should do now the same with NASA. And other nice guy I contacted long ago looking for his collaboration with Chris, Dan MAAS, author of the magnificent simulation footage of the Mars Rovers could take also note. His video clips have been in the news for months, no one crediting him. You can donwload them at http://www.maasdigital.com/.

Congratulations Chris and the whole Celestia community.
Now for the orbital data of planetary missions in standard format!

Diego

[Guest]

Hmm, I'd love to see something like "Celestia - used by NASA and ESA" on the mainpage
*shivers*

[jim]

Hi all,

The use of Celestia without to credit them goes into the next round. Since I know that Celestia is used by ESA I follow every tv report about Mars Express and Beagle with a spezial interest. Yesterday I saw the tv program "Fastzination Wissen" on BR (german tv channel, but can be seen over satellite everywhere in Europe). The topic was the current Mars missions from ESA and NASA. A sientist from ESA had explained how Mars express is going into the orbit around Mars by useing a Celestia made picture. I'm relative sure that Celestia wasn't mentioned.

Bye Jens

[t00fri]

Hey, visit this address

http://www.esa.int/export/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEM4GC374OD_1.html#subhead1

Those screenshots look familliar...

Fortunately by now, ESA has added in most of their displays (notably on the main Mars Express pages) proper reference to Celestia:

Credits: ESA 2003 ==>

Credits: ESA 2003 (generated with Celestia software)

So our letters did apparently help...

I think this is OK now. Everyone becoming curious will have found the Celestia home page via Goggle in one minute...

Bye Fridger

[JackHiggins]

Computer: €1000
Downloading Celestia: 10c on a dialup
Glasses to see that screenshot clearly: €120

Seeing Celestia used on a big screen at ESA mission control in Darmstadt, and knowing you've played a part in that program: Priceless

There are some things in life money can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard.







Sorry, couldn't resist!

[don]

Just found this page (http://astro.estec.esa.nl/Hipparcos/CELESTIA/celestia-pr.html) where the ESA is distributing a program on CD called "Celestia 2000". Maybe this is why they are not giving credit to Celestia !

Celestia 2000 is a CD-ROM package containing the principal parts of the Hipparcos and Tycho Catalogues, annexes and complementary updated ground-based data (in binary format). The accompanying software allows users to easily access astrometric and photometric data for all stars contained in these Catalogues/Annexes.

I can't believe they did this <FROWN>

-Don G.

[Buzz]

Well, the Hipparcos data are theirs...

[selden]

Don,

As best I can tell, ESA's Hipparcos database browser "Celestia 2000" was released in early 1998. See ftp://astro.estec.esa.nl/pub/hipparcos/celestia/README

Its official citation is
Perryman M.A.C., Turon C., Priou D., Eyer L. et al., Celestia 2000, ESA SP-1220, CD-ROM, 1998
(found on Laurent Eyer's home page at http://housefly.astro.princeton.edu/~leyer/ )

In other words, it predates "our" Celestia by several years.
If anyone has the right to complain, it'd be them!

[don]

Ooops. Well, maybe that's still why they don't reference Chris' Celestia.

Triggered by your message regarding a request for web sites or photos of people using Celestia, I've spent the past 3 hours or so surfing the net for things "Celestia", and there are a TON of them, that's for sure. Games, people's names, a religious group, antiques, the CD mentioned above, and much more. Amazing.

-Don G.

[Guest]

On this web page :

http://learn.arc.nasa.gov/exp/

there's link to download a Nasa customised version of Celestia for Mac OS X. It's big (about 180 MB). What is it ? What are the main differences relative to Celestia 1.3.1 for OS X ? What are the addons ?

[ormstont]

Hi everyone,

Without wanting to reignite what seemed to be a heated debate I'd like to add a little more about ESA's use of Celestia. I'd also like to mention that our Celestia images on the website should now all be credited to ESA and Celestia.

I work for the Mars Express flight control team at the European Space Operations Centre (ESOC) in Germany. Although I cannot speak for the whole of ESA I know the engineers on our team are phenomenally grateful for all the work put in by the Celestia development team and user community. I want to mention particular thank yous to the core development team, Jestr, who's Mars texture we use, and Jack Higgins who made the original Mars Express model. I'm sorry if anyone feels hard done by but I'd like to express our thanks as a team and let you know that you are deservedly part of the Mars Express mission, your software is used every day!

I ask with an ulterior motive too, which is that I'm trying to improve our use of Celestia and hopefully propagate that to other missions here at ESA. Unfortunately it's a slightly bewildering world to me that I'm slowly trying to learn. I could really use assistance from anyone who is interested in helping. Please do e-mail me (link on my profile), can provide any support I can, including data from our missions, models, documents etc...so please get in touch!

Finally, for those who are excited to see their work here at ESA I wanted to follow up the grainy screen shot of our control room at Beagle 2 ejection. Check out the photos below to see Celestia on the screens of our Main Control Room during the deployment of our Marsis radar booms last spring (more at http://public.fotki.com/ormstont/marsis_deployment/).

[bh]

Cor!...Jack!...are you recieving? Well done Jestr and everyone!